Red Dwarf rewatch

[Replies From View]

Can we just ditch impressionists as a species?  Their egos, their awful Culshaw-esque faces while they do their voices.  Pursed lips and obnoxious theatrical gestures, sounds forming in their ghastly throats.  There's no call for it.


Absolute grave

If you like I'll be the arbiter of the occasional exception to the rule, so cuddly ones like Robin Williams aren't accidentally sifted into the bin with the rest.

[willbo]

I never liked Dead Ringers on TV, but I happened to hear a radio 4 episode and enjoyed it a lot more. Without seeing them, I could really believe that I was hearing the actual figures.

[petril]

how does Alistair McGowan rank?

always have a soft spot because he seems genuinely massively interested in phonetics and accents, plus he did Only An Excuse without being able to get any of the gags

[purlieu]

McGowan falls into the 'very good at impressions, but not actually very funny' category.

[BeardFaceMan]

That's the problem with impressionists, they have the talent for the voices but their material is weak. Let's be honest, 90% of the laugh you get from an impressionist is just hearing someone doing someone elses voice, once you get past that and listen to what they're actually saying, thats when you stop laughing.

[Stone Cold Steve Austin]

Always hated Chris Barrie's Lister impression. It's so flat and lifeless, just a generic and pretty dour scouse accent, nothing like Craig Charles at all

[purlieu]

Yeah, it's fine as 'someone doing a vague impression of someone they know', and it works really well for Craig to dub onto in Bodyswap, but it doesn't actually sound like him.

[idunnosomename]

Always hated Chris Barrie's Lister impression. It's so flat and lifeless, just a generic and pretty dour scouse accent, nothing like Craig Charles at all

well it works as Rimmer's Lister impression. Though I dont know if you mean in-show or on the audio books

[vainsharpdad]

Can I have Ronni Ancona if she's going spare?

[St_Eddie]

Can I have Ronni Ancona if she's going spare?

Only if you eat your greens first.

[DrGreggles]

I think McGowan/Barrie have other strings to their bow, which elevates them over Culshaw and the like.
Barrie's timing as a comic actor is superb, and McGowan has relaunched himself doing plays over recent years.

[Replies From View]

well it works as Rimmer's Lister impression. Though I dont know if you mean in-show or on the audio books

Barrie does the same voice in the audio books as his best attempt at Lister, so it's the same difference.  And it's shite, yeah.  Just generic scouse scallywag; Craig Charles was right to be pissed off with it in their earliest years of knowing each other.


There was never any line between Barrie and Rimmer as far as doing impressions is concerned.

[purlieu]

Rimmer is too good at impressions. He might not be absolutely spot-on, but when he does his "employment of time on a profitless and non-practical way" bit I always thought "no way was this guy a complete social outcast". It's the sort of remark an observant and confident person would make to their mates. Although it's obvious that Rimmer is a failure at least partially because he feels compelled to succeed at something he's crap at (the fact that Infinity shows he's clearly a brilliant graphic artist is always a bit heartbreaking), it's still difficult to imagine such a social failure being a fairly good mimic.

[vainsharpdad]

I see the prospect of watching Timewave again has become too much to bear.

[purlieu]

Ganymede & Titan have been subconsciously putting off their Timewave commentary for a while. There's no joy to be had there (even if the episode does have a few very good jokes). How about we skip it?

[Lemming]

Funnily enough, I woke up about an hour ago and the first thought on my mind was "fuck, it's probably Timewave day." I'm going in.

On the topic of Barrie's impressions: I really enjoy him as an actor, and I do like his somewhat overrated impressions, but yeah his Lister impression is a bit naff. Lister comes across as weirdly dull in the audiobooks because of it.

Speaking of Rimmer the character rather than Chris the actor, he actually has a hilarious Lister impression, seen in Better Than Life. "Please rush me my portable walrus polishing kit. Four super brushes to tackle even the trickiest of sea-bound mammals. Yes, I am over 18, (slips into own voice) although my IQ isn't." Far too nasally and off-base to work as an actual Lister impression, but perfect for a voice Rimmer can use to mock him.

[Sexton Brackets Drugbust]

Always thought Barrie's Craig Charles impression tends to sound permanently weary and exhausted.

[Lemming]

S12E03 Timewave

A new moon has been discovered - named Rimmer, by Rimmer. But there's a solar storm coming, which sucks because Rimmer says it'd be useful to stay for a while and mine some helium-7 from Rimmer (moon). This element is "rarer than an ungroped bottom at the BBC in the 1970s." Oof.

The solar storm turns out to be a "timewave", an ultra-rare phenomenon which Kryten is a full expert on and knows inside out. The timewave has brought a 24th century Earth ship, which is on a collision course with Rimmer (moon)!!! As Starbug rushes to the rescue, Kryten reveals some info he's researched about the ship. On board, criticism is illegal. Rimmer is a fan of the idea as it could prevent bullying, Lister thinks it's stupid because what's the point of fucking stuff up if nobody tells you what you're doing wrong?

Needless to say, I had the last laugh the plot is already absurd 6 minutes into the episode. A 24th Century Earth ship has arrived - ie, exactly what we've been waiting for for however many decades, and nobody really gives a shit. The same thing has happened before in the likes of Camille (meet two brilliant scientists in the vast emptiness of space, don't care, send them on there way) and Holoship (neither crew cares about their once-in-a-lifetime encounter with each other), but here it's especially strange because the ship will be going back to the 24th Century on the next timewave or whatever. There is absolutely no reason given as to why the crew don't ditch Starbug, stay on board, and head straight back to Earth. Rimmer's even got the Helium-7 that will "make me rich beyond my wildest dreams". But this astronomical bit of luck is never commented upon, and going back to Earth is never treated as an option.

Anyway, the logic behind the criticism ban is, according to Kryten, that criticising people releases dopamine in the brain. Dopamine leads to addiction, and therefore criticism is a drug which will eventually make you a hopeless addict. Alright. We get a totally different explanation of the logic behind this law later on, when Jonny Vegas acts out an orgasm while rubbing his nipples. Keep watching!

On board, the crew discover a bunch of shitty childlike drawings full of misspellings, framed on the walls. They are drawn by people in their mid-30s. Cat forensically reasons that this has something to do with the no criticism policy. A guy who plays the flute badly shows up on a screen. The captain of the ship, Ziggy, rocks up wearing a big rainbow dress thing and a Roman helmet. Ziggy informs the crew that they're welcome on the ship, but there are some problems aboard because the catering crew is trying to fix the lifts while the lift repair crew are working in hospital, etc.

Already we're firmly in Only The Good... style logic, where we've got a really stupid concept that immediately falls apart.

Lister tries to explain to Ziggy that the ship has been shot 3 million years into deep space and is in grave danger. He's ignored by Ziggy, who prances off down the corridor. "Best guess," Kryten says, "the crew are encouraged to express themselves without scorn and ridicule." And that's led to, uh, this.

The crew are taken to a big mess hall filled with weirdly dressed people. Rimmer's loving it, up until getting boiling water poured on his cock. Not making this up. Rimmer complains to the waitress, and Lister joins in, and she screams "CRITICS! HELP!" and rushes to raise the alarm. The crew intend to flee to Starbug, but en route, two cops in bright pink uniforms, one played by Jonny Vegas, apprehend them. He accuses Lister of criticising, and he's made to blow into a... criticiser. Which has a reading of 95, showing that he's "way over the criticism limit". Lister complains and is accused of yet more criticism. Cat's not having it and squares up with Jonny Vegas, calling him "Lieutenant Asshole," and tells him that if he doesn't move his "dumbass spaceship", then "we're gonna be flatter than your wife's droopy-ass titties." Yep.

Now guilty of criticism, the crew are imprisoned. A mysterious masked, stait-jacketed prisoner is placed in the cell with them. Elongated joke ensues about how this guy is a hardened criminal who gives the mandatory "what are you in for?" talk, and his crime is tutting. Great. He informs the crew that they may be "drained".

Lister resolves to get to the engine room and avert the ship's crash course. Using Helium-7, Kryten fashions an explosive and blows the lock on the door. They're caught by Jonny Vegas instantly, put in chains, and taken away to be DRAINED. Lister decides to try and debate the law with Jonny, who responds that before the introduction of the anti-criticism laws, "it was a shambles, everyone arguing... they brought in the anti-criticism law to make everyone more tolerant." Lister replies: "surely any smegger can see, a society can't function like that." Jonny criticises the criticism law, and experiences a dopamine rush that causes him to rub his nipples orgasmically while insulting the crew's appearance.

Reformed, Jonny releases the gang and tells them to make for the bridge, where they'll be able to steer the ship back on course. He won't get in trouble, because "nobody can criticise you here". How the fuck did we get arrested then?! And isn't accusing someone of criticising you an act of criticism in itself? Again, it's like the mirror universe in Only The Good... Just don't think about it.

Ziggy shows up and has a go at everyone, then takes the crew to be DRAINED. The criticism draining machine will "remove your inner critic", after which the inner critic - literally a small version of you - is placed in a jar. We see the inner critic of the flute guy from earlier, trapped in a jar, banging on the glass and criticising stuff.

Rimmer's first up. The machine begins to backfire, as Rimmer's neurosis is so strong that the machine can't handle it. This contains, without a doubt, one of the Top 10 worst fucking jokes ever in a commissioned piece of television. I've actually recorded the scene for people who can't face Timewave, or just aren't watching along with the Dave series. Please, click here to watch this scene, and see how bad things can really get. And to be fair to Chris, how the fuck would you deliver this dogshit?

Rimmer's inner critic emerges, but it's a huge bald guy with a scar. He insists that he's an ally to Rimmer, and that his criticism stops Rimmer from making a fool of himself. Lister start criticising Rimmer's inner critic as a failure, eg. drive plate fiasco. Rimmer agrees, which causes the inner critic to melt. Ziggy is amazed - criticism has saved the day! "Perhaps our philosophy is flawed," Ziggy says. The criticism law is scrapped, and people will be censored no more. Now free to criticise his crew, Ziggy orders the engineering team back to work, and the ship is saved.

It's reward time! Ziggy considered upgrading Red Dwarf's engines to FTL (they already are, as of Future Echoes???), but instead settles on a drawing of a rocket. Lister says it's shit, Ziggy flips out and calls them critics, alarms blare, the crew flees.

Well, all I can say is... it's a good thing Doug supports criticism, because there's really no end to the amount you could throw at this episode. What happened? I'm almost convinced he's hired some ghost writers or something. The shifts in quality, style and tone between episodes in Series 11 and Series 12 really suggest there must have been more  than one writer at work. Or maybe he just hit his head before writing this one, I don't know.

Like with Siliconia, it seems like there's some social commentary here but it's all nebulous and lightweight. I was a little wary of this one going in, not just because it's a shit episode but because I remember the message being potentially offensive. But it isn't really, in part because yet again Doug doesn't actually say anything at all. It's Siliconia all over again - it feels like he wanted to say something, but then backed down and just filled the rest of the episode with farce (mop gladiators in Siliconia, criticism-drainer in this). If you want to say that you find modern-day cancel culture/"tolerance" [nb]I assume the episode is vaguely about this sort of thing because Jonny Vegas' character says that the intent of the law was to "make everyone more tolerant"[/nb] stuff restrictive and authoritarian, come out and say it confidently and openly, make your case plainly and use the script to demonstrate what you mean, and just take the hit if the viewership responds badly or disagrees. There's no need to piss around with Jonny Vegas being a fascistic "criticism cop" who has a nipple-induced orgasm, or getting Chris Barrie to dress up like Dr Evil, only to then sheepishly back out of making any point at all. Lister's closing remarks are "you can't tar all criticism with the same brush", which is something everyone who has ever lived and ever will live already agrees with. The result is an episode with a core idea that you can't give a shit about either way no matter what your potential views are, because the episode never presents you with an actual question to consider, and the antagonists don't have a credible, coherent ideology for you to measure your own values and opinions against, as they might if this was a good Star Trek episode. So it's a WASTE OF TIME.

On top of that, it's easily one of the worst Red Dwarf episodes ever by comedy standards. Cat's only role is to constantly make jokes about how he wishes Rimmer was dead, which stopped being funny about eight series ago, as well as the sphincter-clampingly shit like about "droopy-ass titties". The no-criticism concept itself is free of any and all laughs, unless you lose your shit at the idea of a bunch of adults sat around drawing with crayons or a guy playing the flute badly, or a guy wearing a Roman helmet for no reason. Or a waitress who's so bad at her job that she pours boiling water onto Rimmer's balls. Okay, that one's funny if you write it out like that, but trust me, it isn't funny in motion. Plus I'm not at all a fan of Jonny Vegas, but this script really treats him terribly, I mean what the fuck was that. He gets no laughs because the material he's been given is impossible to get laughs from, unless you cackle at the idea of a "criticiser" which is a breathalyzer for criticism.

Really bad. Still probably not the worst episode of Red Dwarf ever - nothing's going to kick Krytie TV off that spot as far as I'm concerned - but it's really fighting for second worst episode alongside the likes of Only The Good.

That said, there's a Pete Part 2-esque element of fun in watching it. It's such a load of shit that you really do sit there agog the whole time, wondering how nobody stopped Doug at any point. Chris Barrie is always a lot of fun in this series, because he so blatantly and unprofessionally (and I don't blame him) stops giving a shit when the material is weak, and this episode probably presents him with more hilariously unfair insurmountable acting challenges than any other episode since Series 8.

[purlieu]

There is absolutely no reason given as to why the crew don't ditch Starbug, stay on board, and head straight back to Earth.

Pretty sure it's explained that when the timewave goes back it'll maroon them in deep space.

Once the whole criticism aspect of the ship is done with, there's no reason they can't invite everyone back onboard Red Dwarf and let them live life in a bigger ship given that they're going to probably be stranded in deep space once they get back to their own time, but that's largely a Doug-era criticism in general (why don't they wait for the EMP to go off in Twentica and then just fly back down to Earth; why don't they use the Time Drive to go back to Earth at the point the drive plate blows; etc, etc.) Not to mention the fact that, once they're annoyed by the crew's attitude, Lister is the first to basically say "fuck this, let's get out of here and let them die", and never once do they seem to say "you're going to be swept back to the middle of nowhere". There's no empathy or interest in the future of these guests, which feels so at odds with the classic era of the show.

There's nothing logical about the whole anti-criticism aspect of the ship, anyway. I kind of get the idea of "no criticism = people doing stupid things" as a comedy concept, but it's taken to such an extreme that it just doesn't work in the slightest. Throw in the fact that Ziggy talks about getting in touch with the Captain early in the episode, and at the end is the one who decides to end the non-criticism rule, it just feels so utterly skimmed-over that to call it a first draft would be a compliment.

Johnny Vegas having a nipple orgasm from making a criticism, Cat's "droopy-ass titties" line... God, this is not Red Dwarf. Throw in Ziggy basically being a really bad gay stereotype and being portrayed as the most annoying character imaginable. The "spit on her wrist" joke. I have no idea what Doug was going for here, but it's really just terrible on every level. It's basically a case of what the show would have become if he hadn't (mostly) learned his lesson from the negative response to VIII.

It's not all shit. "Tutting" is a good punchline, Rimmer's inner critic feels like a classic Dwarf climax moment, Rimmer's Space Corps Directive "shut up Kryten" is a rare Dave-era callback that's actually worth it. There are a few other really good gags scattered throughout the episode that stop it from being an utter waste of space. But the whole thing feels so tonally wrong for Red Dwarf from the moment they encounter the Timewave. Structurally, it works far better than the last three episodes of VIII, and it's arguably less unpleasant than Krytie TV. But certainly in terms of the 'classic' Dwarf format, it's the worst episode.

[St_Eddie]

Speaking of Rimmer the character rather than Chris the actor, he actually has a hilarious Lister impression, seen in Better Than Life. "Please rush me my portable walrus polishing kit. Four super brushes to tackle even the trickiest of sea-bound mammals. Yes, I am over 18, (slips into own voice) although my IQ isn't." Far too nasally and off-base to work as an actual Lister impression, but perfect for a voice Rimmer can use to mock him.

That's not at all how I've ever read that scene; it's Rimmer doing a generic thick person accent (which sounds suspiciously like Welsh).  It's not meant to be an impression of Lister's accent at all.  Rimmer is just lumping Lister in with thick people in general.

[Lemming]

Pretty sure it's explained that when the timewave goes back it'll maroon them in deep space.

Oh, I see - I was confused by the twin plot points of the timewave receding and taking them with it, but also dumping them in the middle of nowhere, and for some reason I assumed they were just going to be dumped back where they were from. Even then, though, Starbug was "docked" with the ship, so there's definitely an argument to be made from the crew's perspective that it's better to be marooned with another populated ship in the 24th Century, then marooned alone in the unfathomably distant future.

Also, I thought Ziggy was the Captain! Possibly because my brain couldn't handle his character somehow having the power to independently and unilaterally scrap the criticism law with one simple command at the end.

Agreed about Lister (and, by extension, the rest of the crew) being shockingly eager to ditch the other ship and leave them to die. It stood out to me too when I watched it, not least because Lister seems to be prompted into it mainly by a moderately bad experience with one waitress.

That's not at all how I've ever read that scene; it's Rimmer doing a generic thick person accent (which sounds suspiciously like Welsh).  It's not meant to be an impression of Lister's accent at all.  Rimmer is just lumping Lister in with thick people in general.

I'd always liked the idea that Chris Barrie, a decent impressionist, was doing an intentionally crap impression of Lister because that's what Rimmer would sound like. Same for the absolutely abysmal "death isn't the handicap it used to be in the olden days" impression in Future Echoes. Though now that you mention it, the Better Than Life one does sound distinctly Welsh...

[St_Eddie]

There is absolutely no reason given as to why the crew don't ditch Starbug, stay on board, and head straight back to Earth. Rimmer's even got the Helium-7 that will "make me rich beyond my wildest dreams". But this astronomical bit of luck is never commented upon, and going back to Earth is never treated as an option.

You seem to be forgetting Lister's goal of finding Kochanski.

The captain of the ship, Ziggy, rocks up wearing a big rainbow dress thing and a Roman helmet.

The outfit was taken from wherever it was in storage after being used as David Walliams' costume in Spaced...

Lister tries to explain to Ziggy that the ship has been shot 3 million years into deep space and is in grave danger. He's ignored by Ziggy, who prances off down the corridor. "Best guess," Kryten says, "the crew are encouraged to express themselves without scorn and ridicule." And that's led to, uh, this.

The crew are taken to a big mess hall filled with weirdly dressed people.

This is one of my big sticking points for the episode; why would a lack of criticism result in people dressing as giant tomatoes and what have you?  It wouldn't, would it?  I certainly know that if I were free of criticism, I wouldn't suddenly have an urge to change into day-glo garish clothes.  I already wear the clothes I want to wear, even in a world where criticism exists.  For a select few, there may be a deeply held, repressed desire to dress in bizarre outfits such as a giant tomato costume, I suppose and on a ship free of criticism, there would certainly be people with a natural desire to look nice but for the majority, if anything, a lack of criticism would result in people not bothering to make themselves presentable in any way whatsoever.

They'd all be Listers, with stains and rips on their clothes.  Heck, the eventual outcome may be that people wouldn't really bother to get dressed in the mornings at all; they'd just walk around in their underwear or even naked all day long.  After all, what would be the point of keeping up appearances if nobody could criticise you for not doing so?  I also imagine that people would stink, as they wouldn't be showering or bathing regularly.  If Doug had been a smarter writer, he may have taken the episode in this kind of direction, but alas...

Rimmer's loving it, up until getting boiling water poured on his cock. Not making this up. Rimmer complains to the waitress, and Lister joins in, and she screams "CRITICS! HELP!" and rushes to raise the alarm.

This bit always bothered me.  It's established that the boys all know not to criticise and to respect the ship's law.  Kryten explicitly tells them to not criticise, prior to boarding the ship and stresses just how important it is that nobody breaks that law.  It takes until literally their second encounter with one of the ship's crew for them to completely throw that plan out of the window, with gay abandon.

I can buy Rimmer criticising, given that he's had boiling hot coffee poured on his groin but once he does criticise, the waitress is offended and shocked and asks "are you... criticising me?!" and Lister immediately and for no reason whatsoever, throws caution to the wind and says "no, I am! This food is gross!".  Why would Lister ever do that?!  Even if Lister was on a ship where criticism was allowed, he'd never be that rude.  He suddenly acts like a petulant 5 year old.  It makes no sense from a character perspective at all.  It only happens because Doug needs to get the boys arrested for the plot to progress.

"we're gonna be flatter than your wife's droopy-ass titties." Yep.

Awful, awful line.  Really hateful.

Jonny criticises the criticism law, and experiences a dopamine rush that causes him to rub his nipples orgasmically while insulting the crew's appearance.

One of the very few moments I actually like in this episode and it's purely down to Vegas' performance.  It genuinely makes me laugh.  He's got great comic timing and delivery.

Rimmer's first up. The machine begins to backfire, as Rimmer's neurosis is so strong that the machine can't handle it. This contains, without a doubt, one of the Top 10 worst fucking jokes ever in a commissioned piece of television. I've actually recorded the scene for people who can't face Timewave, or just aren't watching along with the Dave series. Please, click here to watch this scene, and see how bad things can really get. And to be fair to Chris, how the fuck would you deliver this dogshit?

It truly does beggar belief.  What was Doug thinking?!

It's reward time! Ziggy considered upgrading Red Dwarf's engines to FTL (they already are, as of Future Echoes???), but instead settles on a drawing of a rocket. Lister says it's shit, Ziggy flips out and calls them critics, alarms blare, the crew flees.

Another abrupt non-ending from Doug.  Not that I wanted this appalling episode to go on any longer, mind.

I was a little wary of this one going in, not just because it's a shit episode but because I remember the message being potentially offensive. But it isn't really...

I disagree. Whilst the episode doesn't offend me personally (other than it being offensively awful), the central message is so muddled as to veer unintentionally into really dodgy territory.  All of the people who are free of criticism end up wearing bright, camp outfits and/or acting in a camp way.  It comes across as Doug saying "camp/gay people ought to not express themselves and tone it down".  I don't think that's what he intended to say at all, but it's how it comes across.  The entire ship is camp, not just the crew; the walls of the ship; everything.  Heck, even the onboard police wear effeminate pink uniforms.  Also see the motion Ziggy makes with his brush when he says he's gonna drain the boys dry - he motions squeezing the spunk out of a cock.  It's well dodgy.

The whole episode comes across as one big critique of homosexuality and campness (and yes, I'm aware that not all gay people are camp or that all camp people are gay, but homophobes rarely are).  I mean, why even have the actor for Ziggy play the character as camp?  What does that add to the episode and what are the resulting implications of having him play it that way, given the nature of the episode's central plot device?  "I don't care what they do, as long as they do it behind closed doors and don't shove it down our throats. You can't even criticise them for it these days. PC gone mad!".  That's the kind of thing which this episode seems to be saying.  Like I say, I'm willing to give Doug the benefit of the doubt but he really ought to have considered this sort of thing prior to filming.

The result is an episode with a core idea that you can't give a shit about either way no matter what your potential views are, because the episode never presents you with an actual question to consider, and the antagonists don't have a credible, coherent ideology for you to measure your own values and opinions against, as they might if this was a good Star Trek episode. So it's a WASTE OF TIME.

Absolutely.  There was potentially a brilliant point and a fantastic thought-provoking episode to be made, but Doug completely drops the ball.  It's just a meaningless bunch of silly scenes, strung together by Blu Tack and pantomime performances.

On top of that, it's easily one of the worst Red Dwarf episodes ever by comedy standards. Cat's only role is to constantly make jokes about how he wishes Rimmer was dead, which stopped being funny about eight series ago...

God, yes.  I am sick to death of Doug going back to that well time and time again.  This is why I keep saying it's time for the series to come to an end.  Doug has clearly run out of material.  It's just slight variations on the same jokes, over and over and over and over and over again.  When you're repeating the same joke literally five times in a single episode (as is literally the case with the Cat in this episode), you really are running on fumes.

Really bad. Still probably not the worst episode of Red Dwarf ever - nothing's going to kick Krytie TV off that spot as far as I'm concerned - but it's really fighting for second worst episode alongside the likes of Only The Good.

It's certainly up there and definitely approaches series VIII territory, yet... I'd still sooner rewatch this episode over anything from series VIII.  Words cannot express how much I loathe series VIII.  Whereas, as I mentioned earlier within the thread, I can "enjoy" 'Timewave' from a purely ironic point of view; just marveling at how horribly misjudged the whole thing is.  I suppose it's also easier to swallow when it's just one truly awful episode in an otherwise reasonably decent series, as opposed to 8 consecutive episodes of utter garbage, as was the case with series VIII.

[rue the polywhirl]

Siliconia was already bit of trudge, another stale redoing of the 'land onboard another vessel then have to escape from its crew' but this episode was exactly more of that yet on another new level of bad. My attention rejected it after about 15 minutes until this following moment -  Rimmer overloading the criticism drainer because he has TOO much neurosis, which is maybe the worst, most cartoonish, cliche-ridden drivel concocted for any Red Dwarf episode. And also one of their most derivative because it's pretty clear they were taking a leaf from South Park: Bigger Longer & Uncut with Cartman overloading his swear chip in the finale and using it as a weapon by swearing lots. And also another leaf when they steal the 'quickest way to a woman's heart' bit a and mutate it into something radically unfunnier. - 'I thought they said "spit on the wrist"'. Really the lowest of the low. You're stealing jokes from South Park and you're making them not make any sense. Plus the general oddity of the rest of the episode with the costumes and Doug Naylor's strange missives on criticism.

[neveragain]

On top of everything else, there's a novel by Rob Grant (Incompetence, but misspelled one way or the other) with a very similar plot to this episode. It's a detective story set in a world where anybody can do any job because criticising someone's abilities has been found to be against human rights.

[Mobbd]

"rarer than an ungroped bottom at the BBC in the 1970s." Oof.

This had the potential to be funny but it isn't. I like the idea of a Red Dwarf production, exiled from the BBC citadel, petulantly telling truth to power from a safe distance and in this cheeky and self-consciously bitter way. BUT "in the 1970s" destroys the joke's rhythm and robs it of its power. It's a cowardly effort not to upset the current establishment.

What I hear in those three little words is: "oh, we're not saying the BBC like that now! And we'll torpedo our own woofer to show it! Please don't sue us. And, um, can we come back on the real telly please?"

On top of everything else, there's a novel by Rob Grant (Incompetence, but misspelled one way or the other) with a very similar plot to this episode. It's a detective story set in a world where anybody can do any job because criticising someone's abilities has been found to be against human rights.

Yes! I mentioned this back when conversation veered into Timewave territory during the VIII sprint of this rewatch but I don't think anyone picked up on it.

It really is the same thing, isn't it? They look a bit different at first because Rob's premise was "everyone is incompetent" while Doug's is "criticism is illegal" but the reason everyone is incompetent in Rob's book is that it's no longer acceptable under employment law to discriminate on terms of competence, i.e. no criticism! Same fucking thing!

Rob's novel was no triumph and came perilously close to "it's political correctness gone mad," but it's 3 million years away from the shitness of Timewave in terms of its execution and also just the central idea of how we would get to this world. I also find myself thinking of it when the trains are delayed or whatever, which is a little testament to at least part of the book's message.

[Replies From View]

"Spit on her wrist" doesn't even remotely work as a mishearing or misunderstanding of "clitoris".  Not only does it lack enough assonance to be a mishearing, it's not a thing that anyone has ever done, so nobody's mind would leap to it on an associative level.


I've said this before and nobody agreed but fuck it; I'll say it again:

My theory:  in a moment of drifting stream-of-consciousness brainstorming, Naylor acknowledged to himself a vague assonance between "clitoris" and "slit 'er wrist", and probably writing late at night, without his senses fully turned on, included it in his notes for potentially amusing mishearings (in a Blue Jam style comedy, for example).   Then, when it came to fleshing it out in a first draft, knew that the idea wasn't even remotely appropriate or tenable as a Rimmer faux pas, but maybe "spit on her wrist" would work as a replacement.  In terms of some of the letters kept, it makes sense as an evolution of "slit 'er wrist".

Less unacceptable than "slit 'er wrist", but whoops - it no longer has even the vaguely positive quality of being a passable mishearing.  Suddenly it's just gibberish on every level.



Whatever happened, and Timewave has far bigger problems than this, Naylor really needs a solid script editor to help him know where the bin is and what it's for.

[BeardFaceMan]

The problem with that groped bottom gag is that it's doing a topical gag (was it still topical at the time? Knowing Doug's record he won't have made a reference to BBC bum groping until every other comedian in Britain has done so first) in a show set in the future. In-universe there's no way the characters would know about something as obscure as that. RD isn't the vehicle for topical jokes, they don't make sense and don't age well (see the Ishtar gag). Oh, and the other problem is that the joke is shit.

[Mobbd]

The problem with that groped bottom gag is that it's doing a topical gag (was it still topical at the time? Knowing Doug's record he won't have made a reference to BBC bum groping until every other comedian in Britain has done so first) in a show set in the future. In-universe there's no way the characters would know about something as obscure as that. RD isn't the vehicle for topical jokes, they don't make sense and don't age well (see the Ishtar gag). Oh, and the other problem is that the joke is shit.

Yeah. I don't mind this sort of artistic license to be honest. But for the reasons you describe it's not my fave. I don't think it's in service of enough to warrant its deployment.

[BeardFaceMan]

Yeah. I don't mind this sort of artistic license to be honest. But for the reasons you describe it's not my fave. I don't think it's in service of enough to warrant its deployment.

Yeah, if you're gonna break the rules you need a very good reason for doing so, a ropey gag is not reason enough. But that's to be expected by now. Don't even get me started on the fucking floppy disc in The Promised Land. I actually tried to rewatch that again a few weeks ago and didn't get past the first episode. Applause breaks for crawling through a catflap, for the emergence of a floppy disc? Fuck that shit, this show is resolutely not for me anymore, not the way it's been going. The good news for me is that Rob being involved in any kind of way from now on can't possibly make RD worse.

[Mobbd]

Applause breaks for crawling through a catflap, for the emergence of a floppy disc? Fuck that shit

Haha. Yes indeedy. There's a Red Letter Media video (a Best of the Worst) where they review the appalling National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation 2. They seize on a moment where a character produces a giant wrench to fix a busted water pipe around which they've been tediously slapsticking. It's pointed out that "a big tool for a big problem" is a deeply hack and clownish visual joke. Never thought I'd see that on Red Dwarf.