Red Dwarf rewatch

[St_Eddie]

The audience laughed at every single line. Literally every one. Is it canned, or are the studio audience really that easy to please?

The latter.  The sycophantic audience of the Dave era is really grating and something that I and others have bemoaned previously within this thread.

[Lemming]

This is actually really tough. Making a bottom 10 was quite easy, as is making a top 10, but the rest is so difficult to rank. Every time I look at the list, something seems wrong, I say out loud "how the fuck have I put Duct Soup higher than Cured" and the entire list needs re-shuffling. It's the Doug era stuff that throws everything off - the episodes from S1 - S6 are fairly easy to rank. Anyway, here's the next 10 entries, most of which I'm not at all sure about, but fuck it:

55. S10E06 - The Beginning - thought this was one weak on the rewatch, weak on jokes and weak on plot.

54. S06E05 - Rimmerworld - here we go, lowest-ranked Grant-era episode! An episode of two halves, the Simulant ship and Rimmerworld, and both of them are kind of crap. The Rimmer clones all being self-described backstabbing cowards or whatever is a reminder of how thin the characters had become at this point in Red Dwarf's run.

53. S08E04 - Cassandra - it does sort of earn its reputation as the only non-shit Series 8 episode, but it's only barely non-shit. Turns into the kind of soul-crushing sex comedy that the rest of Series 8 does, and the tone is still Chucklevision's bastard child. It's saved by an actual sci-fi plot - even if a very stock one - and jokes that flow from the plot for a change.

52. S07E06 - Beyond a Joke - i remember liking this, though I can't remember why. The review says I thought there were some strong jokes and a decent plot, so there you go. I think it's also one of the first times that it became clear Kochanski could develop into a solid character.

51. S11E04 - Krysis - bit of a snoozer, a vehicle for some decent jokes here and there.

50. S07E05 - Blue - all of it's shit except for the Rimmer/Lister stuff, which is reason enough to recommend the episode. It's one of the examples of Doug trying something a bit different and serialised in Series 7, which you have to appreciate even if you have qualms about how it all turned out.

49. S07E08 - Nanarchy - i'll be honest, this one blends into Epideme in my head. I think I might have watched them together as a two-parter? Anyway, I remember Epideme being the stronger of the two, with the latter half being genuinely good, so I'm placing it one ahead.

48. S07E07 - Epideme - there.

47. S07E04 - Duct Soup - though you have to tough out some of the cringey shite that characterises DOUG DWARF (or at least, S7 and S8), not to mention jealous Kryten, there is a good episode here, one that has the bravery to largely ditch the monster/anomaly/etc of the week to focus on the characters being stuck together.

46. S11E06 - Can of Worms - it's fun, but it's very stupid, and revisits territory we've already seen before.

Getting very difficult at this point, especially at the part where Grant-era episodes start to enter the mix alongside DOUG DWARF. Still not entirely 100% on this list, but I've fucked about with it at least five times so there you have it.

[St_Eddie]

No, no, no.  Placing 'Cassandra' above the likes of 'Rimmerworld' simply will not stand.  I'm sorry but you'll simply have to throw the list out and start over.

[Replies From View]

Cassandra is always placed higher than it deserves in these kinds of things, because it comes as such a relief amongst the rest of series 8 when watching them all in sequence.  But it still has all the same pantomime overacting, the lobotomised versions of the characters, and some haha rape humour.  No way it deserves to be above anything made for series 1-6.

Every episode of series 8 deserves to be at the bottom of the list for me, with Cassandra at the top of that series 8 list, and Timewave shuffled somewhere in there too.

[Lemming]

Thought about it a bit, and I'm going to have to stand by the ranking.

Rimmerworld leaves me almost totally cold. The first half on the Simulant ship is just bizarre, with Lister first looking like a psycho by knowingly leading everyone into a deathtrap, and then looking like a prat as he tries to flirt with the suicidal Simulant in what has to be among the most cringeworthy and misjudged scenes in Series 6. Then we get to the Rimmerworld plot, which doesn't go anywhere or resolve in any kind of way - they literally just teleport out. "Planet where everyone is Rimmer and they all go around backstabbing each other" sounds like a concept Doug would come up with on a bad day in the Dave era, and it's handled about as well here.

Cassandra is tainted by the usual Series 8 nonsense, with the nadir being the Rimmer/Kochanski plot that threatens to drag the entire episode down into an abyss of shit, but there's a real plot that has a satisfying (and quite clever) conclusion, even if it's something of a reheat of Future Echoes, and the worst elements of the episode only really come in at the end and are mercifully short-lived.

I can't really think of anything positive to say about Rimmerworld beyond a few isolated jokes ("or we could use the teleporter"), and for every joke Rimmerworld has, Cassandra's got an equivalent ("except for Rimmer, who will be dead in 20 minutes"). It's a choice between being bored for half an hour (Rimmerworld) and being alternately frustrated and disappointed for half an hour because the episode is so close to being good (Cassandra).

[purlieu]

Convenient as the teleporter exit is in Rimmerworld, it does at least have the gag. The main plot of Cassandra is summed up with "Kryten figured it out". On no evidence, whatsoever. The last thing they knew was Kochanski and Rimmer were trapped, and Rimmer was going to die. From that, Kryten figured out that Lister was going to kill Cassandra so she organised the whole thing so that Rimmer and Kochanski would sleep together in order to punish Lister. It's tenuous at the best of times, but Kryten figuring it out on literally no evidence is possibly the laziest plotting Doug has ever come up with.

The episode also bothers me a lot because it's the first (and main) example of Doug having his cake and eating it by introducing the Canaries. He spent so much time setting up the trapped in prison scenario to somehow return to the supposed 'Porridge in space' format, only to follow it up by doing a derelict-of-the-week plot that involves killing off a bunch of prisoners so the main cast end up alone with the villain. It's almost as if he had absolutely no idea what he was doing when he was writing VIII.

Just think, if he had to do the crew resurrection plot, they could have had the characters trying to fit back into normal life aboard ship and finding it difficult, with the senior crew occasionally calling on them to deal with some space anomaly or Simulant threat every now and then because of their first-hand experience. It could have led to some nice clashes - Rimmer would still be ostensibly in charge of Lister, but would also be seething with jealousy that Lister gets to help out the Captain; Lister would have to deal with only being useful to the senior staff when they were threatened, yet reduced to being Third Technician the rest of the time. Cat and Kryten would be treated with some suspicion by the rest of the crew, while Kochanski would literally be a different person to the one she'd replace, and thus our main characters would find solace with each other's company, despite no longer being alone in space.

Sorry, just indulging another what-could-have-been fantasy. VIII is such a missed opportunity on every level, even before you get to the actual jokes and loss of the characters being actual characters.

[Lemming]

Convenient as the teleporter exit is in Rimmerworld, it does at least have the gag. The main plot of Cassandra is summed up with "Kryten figured it out". On no evidence, whatsoever. The last thing they knew was Kochanski and Rimmer were trapped, and Rimmer was going to die. From that, Kryten figured out that Lister was going to kill Cassandra so she organised the whole thing so that Rimmer and Kochanski would sleep together in order to punish Lister. It's tenuous at the best of times, but Kryten figuring it out on literally no evidence is possibly the laziest plotting Doug has ever come up with.

I'm thinking I might have re-written the plot in my head now - I remembered it as being Cassandra giving false predictions because she knew that Lister was going to end up killing her, and was trying to somehow avert it, rather than just to punish him. I watched Series 8 in such a near-comatose state of despondency that I wouldn't be surprised if I've fucked up the plot details.

Although I do remember it being one of Kryten's worst ever "best guess sirs" moments.

[St_Eddie]

...for every joke Rimmerworld has, Cassandra's got an equivalent ("except for Rimmer, who will be dead in 20 minutes").

That is a shit joke because it makes no sense.  I've mentioned it before...

There's a line where Cassandra says "all of the canaries will be dead within one hour... except for Rimmer, who'll be dead in 20 minutes".  Well, that's still WITHIN ONE HOUR isn't it, Cassandra, you stupid-fucking-Zoe Wanamaker-lookalike-of-a-computer-cunt!

[Lemming]

It might be a syntaxical trainwreck, but the delivery is just excellent from both Chris Barrie and Geraldine McEwan. And the look Cassandra gives right after announcing it:



The Cassandra character really makes me laugh for some reason. The monotone, slightly mocking way it delivers terrible news. I can see why Doug lifted it wholesale for the "mad goth bastard" computer in Fathers & Suns.

[Replies From View]

Awful

[Replies From View]

Anyone who remembers Cassandra being good should watch it again as a punishment.

[Lemming]

Not sure about calling it good. I've placed it below such titans as Beyond a Joke and Krysis, which should speak for itself. Just weighing it up against Rimmerworld, which I thought was poorly written and totally joyless (bar two great jokes at the end - the teleporter and "we're much more concerned by the terrible thing that's happened to Lister").

It does feel strangely sacrilegious to put anything from 1 - 6 below anything from DOUG DWARF, but Series 6 mostly feels closer to DOUG DWARF than it does to earlier stuff to me.

[Replies From View]

ok well you still have to watch Cassandra again as a punishment for your life choices

[BritishHobo]

Anyone who remembers Cassandra being good should watch it again as a punishment.

I remembered it being good (hadn't watched series 8 since the first time it came out on DVD, so had largely forgotten the horrible LADS LADS LADS shit-style the whole series has), and I was quite surprised, rewatching it alongside Lemming's reviews, to see how underdone it all is. I remembered there being loads of long, clever stuff about Cassandra's predictions, and avoiding fate, but as has been pointed out there's basically only the first meeting with Cassandra, then some twatting about in the corridors, then straight into Kryten's exposition-dump.

I had the same problem with 'Only The Good...', where what I remembered as a long plot about a virus on the ship turned out to be about two scenes tacked onto the end of the episode.

[Lemming]

ok well you still have to watch Cassandra again as a punishment for your life choices

[JamesTC]

Unfortunately the only episodes of Red Dwarf I can watch are Marooned, Quarantine and Cassandra. I need to watch them on my Nokia phone through the SIM card.

[idunnosomename]

purgatory. you're sent back to 2007 and you're in a pub waiting for your mates. all you have is the red dwarf mobisodes and snake.

the modern sisyphus, trying not to bump into his own tail

[Replies From View]

What would someone do with that?  Remove the SIM from their phone and swap it with the Red Dwarf one?  Meaning their phone can't be used for calls or messages in between?

Waiting for those friends to turn up in 2007, and hoping they're not trying to message you to check the venue because you are getting stuck into the haha rape scene and won't be swapping the SIMS back until the credits have rolled.

[St_Eddie]

I love you, Lemming.  Best person on this entire site, yet I cannot sanction your buffoonery.  Fancy putting 'Cassandra' above 'Rimmerworld'.  Quite frankly, it's a fucking disgrace.

It might be a syntaxical trainwreck, but the delivery is just excellent from both Chris Barrie and Geraldine McEwan. And the look Cassandra gives right after announcing it:

About the only positive thing I can think of from series VIII is the fact that Geraldine McEwan took the role of Cassandra because her grandson was a big fan of the show.  That's lovely.  Slightly less lovely is the thought of said Grandson saying "fuck you, Nan! You are a part of the destruction of the show I love. I hate you and I sincerely hope that you die in a fire full of angry bees".

[St_Eddie]

That barb was made in jest by the way, Lemming.  I do genuinely think that you're awesome... even if your rankings are pants.

[Lemming]

I love you, Lemming.  Best person on this entire site

<3

I think you're awesome too, nobody else has been such a consistent presence while I've suffered through the HELL of janky mid-late-90s FPS games.

yet I cannot sanction your buffoonery.

More buffoonery incoming, the next portion of the list looks like it's going to have more than a couple Grant-era episodes. Just having a last-minute panic trying to decide whether or not to place The Last Day above Cured.

[purlieu]

McEwan provides the best performance in the whole series, too[nb]I do like Ackerman's camp villainy, but not in a Red Dwarf way[/nb]. It's a shame she had to be in VIII.

[Replies From View]

Graham McTavish (who played Ackerman) was also the presenter on a weird unauthorised biography DVD of the Beatles that I picked up about 15 years ago.

[rue the polywhirl]

Continuation of the bottom 20 episodes -

11. Back To Earth pt 1 S9 - The entirety of Back To Earth was more than a little ropey but the first part was so much massively worse. Such a rough re-entry back into the franchise. The scene where they're stuck in the diving bell with the squid was a rotten squib that went on for eternity.
12. Krysis SXI - Momumentally unfunny the whole way through. A Mid-life crisis episode for Kryten doesn't make sense after his end-of-life crisis episode in The Last Day S3. End was like a mash-up of Morethan Freeman adverts and Futurama's Godfellas.
13. Nanarchy S7 - Tonally just a lot sillier than the rest of S7 and sets up the monstrosity that is S8.
14. Back To Earth pts 2 & 3 S9 - There were funny bits here and there but still so much ropiness. I really did not enjoy the slavish dedications and homages to Blade Runner. It's like they couldn't draw upon enough of their own ideas?
15. ...
16. Dear Dave SX - Production problems ahoy! Episode's a complete mess. There are hardly any good jokes. Lister appearing to hump a vending machine is kinda funny but still kind of another nadir for the show and really really contrived and Kryten's reaction manages to make it less funnier.
17. Fathers And Suns SX - This was such a significant step down following on from the good season opener. Also tedious maybe racist vending machine sub-plot and lousy recycled villain.
18. Rimmerworld S6 - I found this by far the lamest of S6, even more so than Polymorph II which gets ragged on a lot. The back and forth between the characters at this point is so stale and tiresome and one-note and endless and that's all there is for most of the episode because the story doesn't get going till halfway.
19. Twentica SXI - This episode was a shame because it was well plotted and had some good costumes and set designs and with enough decent jokes it could have easily been the Dave-era Back To Reality. I might as well have been watching a straight-up 90-minute drama for the amount of laughs it had.
20. Can Of Worms SXI - This was a tricky choice. I went with this one because it was a stupid episode for the most part and the closing line 'a momma always knows her kids' is one of the worst resolutions of any episode (except for maybe Officer Rimmer which somehow cuts out mid-resolution).

[mjwilson]

Some Red Dwarf on Tomorrow's World, newly dug up apparently: https://www.ganymede.tv/2021/04/gtv-special-holly-on-tomorrows-world/

[St_Eddie]

Graham McTavish (who played Ackerman) was also the presenter on a weird unauthorised biography DVD of the Beatles that I picked up about 15 years ago.

He also starred as the antagonist in Robin Hardy's dreadful spiritual successor to The Wicker Man, titled The Wicker Tree.

15. ...

'Ellipses' truly was the worst episode.

[St_Eddie]

The scene where they're stuck in the diving bell with the squid was a rotten squib that went on for eternity.

The scene where they're stuck in the diving bell with the squib was a rotten squid that went on for eternity.

[MojoJojo]

The latter.  The sycophantic audience of the Dave era is really grating and something that I and others have bemoaned previously within this thread.

Comments from Iain Boldsworth who was the warmup man suggest it was the latter. Also the way the audience laugh at things that don't even have the shape of jokes (e. g. The crew walking down a corridor) suggest it's been done in the mix.

[Replies From View]

It's never "canned" laughter, which means there was never a studio recording and the laugh track comes from a sound effects bank.  All laughter in Red Dwarf is created by recording a live audience, but that recording is then edited and "sweetened" in ways that arguably misrepresent that original audience response.

If you want an easy direct comparison of pure vs sweetened audience laughter, watch the original series 1-3 alongside the remastered.

[idunnosomename]

I mean you'll nearly always play with the laugh track to make it sound better these days. there are some good gags in the early series that for some reason, don't get much of a laugh. pasting in a laugh from somewhere else would make them less jarring. smoothing out reality makes it seem more real.

(I always think of Norman's wonderfully deadpan "oh ye of little faith" after Holly's correctly answered a question Lister knew the answer to. no one laughs, I cackle)