Author Topic: ICE Detention Centre Nastiness  (Read 1406 times)

chveik

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Re: ICE Detention Centre Nastiness
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2020, 06:02:20 PM »
Is anyone in this thread eligible to vote in the US? I%u2019m not. If you are, vote how you like - just throwing out my opinion, other opinions (like voting for trump I guess? Is that the argument?) are available, I leave it to you on which avenue makes more sense.

I don't think it's the argument. I'm just depressed by the whole 'if you don't for X, you're endorsing fascism' logic. it seems to me that all that progressive grassroot work hasn't changed at all the strategy of the democrats. and if Biden isn't capable to make a little concession for healthcare now (for instance), there's no real reason to think he's going to do it later.

FerriswheelBueller

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Re: ICE Detention Centre Nastiness
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2020, 06:17:22 PM »
I don't think it's the argument. I'm just depressed by the whole 'if you don't for X, you're endorsing fascism' logic. it seems to me that all that progressive grassroot work hasn't changed at all the strategy of the democrats. and if Biden isn't capable to make a little concession for healthcare now (for instance), there's no real reason to think he's going to do it later.

Fair point. Sorry for taking the discussion off topic!

Flouncer

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Re: ICE Detention Centre Nastiness
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2020, 06:38:36 PM »
wut

I'm not expressing myself well but I'm basically in agreement with your previous post

Sorry, I wasn't directing that at you. I was just generally being daft and didn't consider that it might appear that I was responding to anyone in particular.

Re: ICE Detention Centre Nastiness
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2020, 06:41:41 PM »
I don't think it's the argument. I'm just depressed by the whole 'if you don't for X, you're endorsing fascism' logic. it seems to me that all that progressive grassroot work hasn't changed at all the strategy of the democrats. and if Biden isn't capable to make a little concession for healthcare now (for instance), there's no real reason to think he's going to do it later.

Lucky that’s not the logic i used, and something i specifically disagreed with when talking about that tweet.

Pretending that trump losing is not an at least very slightly positive thing and at least might result in some better outcomes for vulnerable people is just misguided though. Holding your nose and voting for a terrible centrist purely out of interest of preventing a 2nd term of fascism in the actual present day doesn’t require you to disgard all your principles or stop working for proper leftist policies and action.



Re: ICE Detention Centre Nastiness
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2020, 06:52:02 PM »
Lucky that’s not the logic i used, and something i specifically disagreed with when talking about that tweet.

Pretending that trump losing is not an at least very slightly positive thing and at least might result in some better outcomes for vulnerable people is just misguided though. Holding your nose and voting for a terrible centrist purely out of interest of preventing a 2nd term of fascism in the actual present day doesn’t require you to disgard all your principles or stop working for proper leftist policies and action.

The centrists keep getting further right because this happens every single time and people like you say well gosh darn maybe next time but there are more pressing matters right now! There isn’t time for next time anymore.

A Biden/Harris presidency will beget a future fascist, who will potentially be much more dangerous and competent than Trump. Obama had the worst midterm elections since Eisenhower, because people need real change, not incrementalism. Do you sincerely think “Obama but worse” will do anything but bolster the Republicans?

Dex Sawash

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Re: ICE Detention Centre Nastiness
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2020, 06:56:40 PM »
Is anyone in this thread eligible to vote in the US?

Me, twed and dewt

Sin Agog

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Re: ICE Detention Centre Nastiness
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2020, 07:10:27 PM »
I shan't be holding my nose and voting Biden because I was told that touching your face is dangerous.

Sin Agog

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Re: ICE Detention Centre Nastiness
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2020, 07:25:48 PM »
I'm dubious about the efficacy of long games in politics, and I'm even more dubious that the DNC will learn their lesson even after playing the same hand and losing twice, but if they failed to inspire the younglings and lose again, that does potentially give us a more powerful hand on the next merry-go-round.  It would probably make things like medicare more likely than if a guy so completely and utterly in thrall to insurance lobbyists gets in power.  I honestly think I would stay at home that day in November rather than Biden my time.  Wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror after voting for the hairy-legged one.

Re: ICE Detention Centre Nastiness
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2020, 07:49:46 PM »
That is absolutely mental.  I know this is stating the obvious but it really seems like we're watching the fall of a superpower.  I wouldn't be surprised if certain states go their own way at some point in the future. 

Sin Agog

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Re: ICE Detention Centre Nastiness
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2020, 07:53:41 PM »
I'll admit even though I'd chain myself to my couch that day, I would still be secretly hoping other less obdurate mofos'll be voting Biden in my stead.

Re: ICE Detention Centre Nastiness
« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2020, 08:30:56 PM »
The centrists keep getting further right because this happens every single time and people like you say well gosh darn maybe next time but there are more pressing matters right now! There isn’t time for next time anymore.

A Biden/Harris presidency will beget a future fascist, who will potentially be much more dangerous and competent than Trump. Obama had the worst midterm elections since Eisenhower, because people need real change, not incrementalism. Do you sincerely think “Obama but worse” will do anything but bolster the Republicans?

We have to let the fascist win now, so that a more frightening dangerous fascist doesn't win in the future. Am I just supposed to take your word on that? Noone is arguing that Biden represents anything like real change. What will happen if Trump wins again? A leftist president will somehow emerge and win the next election? That sounds extremely far fetched, as does the idea that the DNC will learn their lesson. While you suggest waiting around for this future ideal scenario peoples lives are being fucked up in the here and now (such as this shit in the OP), and getting rid of the current fascists would make some small difference to this, that's all that I see as being required. Getting rid of outright fascists is always worthwhile. as is doing everything possible to advance leftist policies and candidates.

Re: ICE Detention Centre Nastiness
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2020, 08:42:30 PM »
While you suggest waiting around for this future ideal scenario peoples lives are being fucked up in the here and now (such as this shit in the OP), and getting rid of the current fascists would make some small difference to this, that's all that I see as being required.

The fact that it’s all you see as required is exactly the issue. You don’t have to take my word for it, but there are countless historical examples of centrism leading to fascism. Of course the fascists are overtly worse than the centrists, but there are better options which are neither of those. I could not convince myself that a vote for Biden is a vote for vulnerable people. As is pointed out continually online, “who built the cages?”.  The people who will actually benefit from a Biden presidency are not the marginalised, but the already powerful. If it was the other way round he clearly wouldn’t be the nominee. 

Re: ICE Detention Centre Nastiness
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2020, 08:57:14 PM »
The fact that it’s all you see as required is exactly the issue.

All that should be required to get someone in an area where it counts to vote, that's what I obviously meant. if you actually read any of my posts this would be obvious.


 
You don’t have to take my word for it, but there are countless historical examples of centrism leading to fascism. Of course the fascists are overtly worse than the centrists, but there are better options which are neither of those. I could not convince myself that a vote for Biden is a vote for vulnerable people. As is pointed out continually online, “who built the cages?”.  The people who will actually benefit from a Biden presidency are not the marginalised, but the already powerful. If it was the other way round he clearly wouldn’t be the nominee.

One of them is going to win. If you are somewhere where you have the opportunity to make any difference in this either way it's worthwhile doing so.

I never said a vote for Biden was remotely a good thing, or 'a vote for vulnerable people' it's still better than fascists, and could feasibly lead to slightly better outcomes for people currently having their lives destroyed and those they would become more brazen about destroying the lives of with a 2nd term. I don't think anyone is under any illusions about Biden or the DNC not being a bunch of cunts, but they are not overt fascists.

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