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Super Mario 3D All Stars

Started by Consignia, September 20, 2020, 06:18:29 PM

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Consignia

To chip out of the Switch monolith thread, let's talk about 3D all stars here.

For me I've tried playing the games in chronological order. But I'm really struggling with Mario 64. The controls are so wonky, with the game is full of easy to fall in pits. The wing cap is the worst Mario power up ever, absolutely no fun to use at all. I understand how people hold it as a classic, at the time it was revolutionary and there's a nostalgia attached to it. I never had it at the time, but did have the DS version. Still not really doing anything for me.

I'm actually having a much better time with Sunshine. Sure it's as flawed as anything, but it just feels that much tighter for me. The better graphics do help loads as well.

Not touching Galaxy yet. That's dessert. If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding.

Thursday

I've gone straight to Galaxy, so going back to 64 might be a struggle, but I have actually been replaying some PS1 games so I might be adjusted to wonky controls and design.

I only actually played some of 64 and never played Sunshine, so I wanted to go for nostalgia first.

Kelvin

It's impossible for me to be even remotely objective, as I've played it so many times over the years, but Mario 64 still feels perfectly playable to me. A bit stiffer than the later games, and Lakitu is a stubborn git with his camera, but with level design and missions that generally allow for that. If anything, this playthrough I've been struck by how impressive the camera actually was for it's time - I'd never really considered before how the camera automatically pivots round the centre point when you climb a winding tower or mountain, for example. We rightly take that for granted now, but it's mad to think that cameras never made intuitive movements like that before Mario 64.

Obviously there are frustrations - it was a complete faff trying to drop into the cage on Whomp's fortress this time, and it's certainly more of a problem when you're under pressure, like that star, or the one behind Chomp's gate. But generally there isn't that urgency, and you can line your jumps up and take stock at each stage. By contrast, I've found Sunshine much worse, because it expects a higher standard of precision at greater speeds, and with a camera that's less reliable. The fact that Mario 64 usually doesn't punish you too harshly for fucking up (until the very last few levels) also makes it less frustrating when the game does screw you over. 

madhair60

I didn't like Mario 64 at the time and don't really like it now. Now I'd normally write something about respecting it from afar, or whatever, but I can't be arsed. I don't think it's any fun to play.

Beagle 2

Also gone straight in on Galaxy, I've never played it and I've been desperate to for years.

I must be about five or six hours in and I'm completely blown away, it's so impressively designed, I just keep saying "oooh that's clever". It's also feels the right level of challenging after Odyssey, incredible though that game is, I did sort of feel like I was sauntering through it.

So yes, it's good. It feels like prog Mario. I'm going to end up buying a Wii just to play 2 after this I imagine.

Weird explaining to my son that "this one is the most recent game, it's not that old, it came out... ten years before your birth...".

Timothy

Quote from: magval on September 19, 2020, 02:00:42 PM
Better how Timothy, what could they have done?

I think the collection would have been better if they either fixed or updated the camera in 64 and made sure Sunshine would run smooth (so without any slowdown or framedrops). I was also quite disappointed in the lack of extras. Not even a cool history of video package before you are dropped down in the menu to select the games.

QuoteFor me I've tried playing the games in chronological order. But I'm really struggling with Mario 64. The controls are so wonky, with the game is full of easy to fall in pits. The wing cap is the worst Mario power up ever, absolutely no fun to use at all. I understand how people hold it as a classic, at the time it was revolutionary and there's a nostalgia attached to it.

Agreed. It's a fun game but to today's standards it has a LOT of unfair ''you died'' moments due to the controls and camera.

I've already played these games, I mustn't be the target market.
Can you imagine?

Quote from: madhair60 on September 20, 2020, 09:13:00 PMI didn't like Mario 64 at the time

Yeah, I didn't care for mario 64 back in the day either. Lukewarm, cunty camera. Always confused about how much praise it gets.

Always slightly confused about how much negativity sunshine gets as well.
It has lots of flaws, obviously, but I have some fond memories, more than 64, anyway, the really happy sunshiny plaza you run around is so cheery, and squirting water and jetpacking around didn't get old.

I haven't really enjoyed any of the 3d mario's I've played, thinking about it, cat mario being the exception to the rule, though I think that was like semi 3d for the most part, wasn't it? Kept the action on a mostly 2d plane. Am I using the right terms there?

3D platformers were never a good idea. I mean, we've had some decent games that worked despite it, but let's keep it 2D, lads.

I haven't played galaxy or galaxy 2, I bought both for the wii u but my nephew wasn't feeling them so that was that.
I remember firing one up in dolphin to see what the fuss was about, and yeah, seemed alright, didn't play for too long though. It was a very slow start, felt like an hour long tutorial and I just got bored.

The Mollusk

Quote from: ImmaculateClump on September 21, 2020, 11:40:55 AM
I haven't really enjoyed any of the 3d mario's I've played

...

I haven't played galaxy or galaxy 2

Are you fucking mental


Bazooka

You need to jump into platforming prison, for having such heinous opinions.

Pull my string again, I've got loads of these!
Best mario, Super Mario Bros 2
Best platformer ever, spelunky

Bazooka

*insert Larry David fainting gif*

You are like madhair on acid!

The Mollusk

You get a pass on Super Mario Bros. 2 because of wonderfully bizarre it is. Also it's got the best overworld theme (incredible cover version here), pure fucking magic.

madhair60

is there any fanbase with more rigidly uninteresting opinions than Nintendo?

Thursday

Mario get's kind of tiresome after a while doesn't he?

"WAHOO WOOHAAA"

Shut up mate. Just shut up. Jumpcunt more like.

Consignia

Fun fact, Mario was originally named Jumpcunt in the old Donkey Kong games but Nintendo was worried that it wasn't casually racist enough.

Big Mclargehuge

I've played all of them before except galaxy, so it's been nice to get reaquainted with them over the last few days.

I got 120 stars in 64 today and finished it properly. It's still a really fun game with a lot of great ideas and a great expansive run of levels but that camera and model detection can just. get. FUCKED. combined with a couple of stages that seemed almost comically vague leading to literal hours of just wandering around the level touching everything hoping a star will appear it really shows just how utterly creaky it is now in the face of 20 odd+ years of improvements in 3d platforming. with some mild tweaking on the camera and control front it could still really hold up. as it stands it's one i'll play again to dabble. but I dont think i'll ever bother to finish it again.

Sunshines just as fun as I remember it and the platforming is smooth as butter. Im seriously loving how it looks and handles. With two exceptions. I sank literally hundreds of hours into the Gamecube version over the years. the gamecube controls are firmly embedded in my muscle memory. and the fact that the analogue triggers have been split out over 2 buttons on the switch version is absolutely and totally messing with my flow and vibe. it's totally throwing me off especially with things like the hover nozzle where in the gamecube version you could stagger a tank of water on the way down. now if you let go of that trigger, your fucked. That and they've uninverted the controls on spray direction. meaning I keep pushing down expecting the water to go up and end up wasting half a tank spraying the fucking ground.

I know I'll get more accustomed to the control changes  as I keep playing through (I've only just got to 15 shine sprites) but it feels totally alien at this point.

When I've finished Sunshine im giving my copy to the missus as she's played non of them and is kind of curious to see how they handle after hearing fond and stressful memories from me and my friends about them. I'll probably end up tackling Galaxy around Christmas time when I have a shit ton of time off booked in.

Is the control inversion different on Mario 64 too? It's something that's been bugging me.

Kelvin

Quote from: Big Mclargehuge on September 22, 2020, 11:05:54 PM
I got 120 stars in 64 today and finished it properly. It's still a really fun game with a lot of great ideas and a great expansive run of levels but that camera and model detection can just. get. FUCKED. combined with a couple of stages that seemed almost comically vague leading to literal hours of just wandering around the level touching everything hoping a star will appear it really shows just how utterly creaky it is now in the face of 20 odd+ years of improvements in 3d platforming. with some mild tweaking on the camera and control front it could still really hold up. as it stands it's one i'll play again to dabble. but I dont think i'll ever bother to finish it again.

You see, I think the bones of Mario 64 remain superior to almost everything that's come since. The levels are just the right size, densely packed with stars and secrets, very little filler, even the red coins are more fun than the comets in Galaxy. I absolutely agree that it's mechanically dated, with the camera issues and hit detection, and even the way Mario moves, but I still think that - while Galaxy and Odyssey may be better overall by modern standards - Mario 64 is the least repetitive, least padded, and most fast paced. I think it holds up incredibly well, and feels like a work of of creative brilliance in a way that only Galaxy has approached.   

Thursday

Even in Galaxy I'd forgotten about the lack of camera manipulation. Can understand for the hardware it's on, and generally there's reasons why the camera is fixed in a lot of situations, but it does still give you some control sometimes, which makes it odd when it doesn't allow you to for no reason.

Beagle 2

Quote from: Kelvin on September 23, 2020, 10:06:11 PM
You see, I think the bones of Mario 64 remain superior to almost everything that's come since. The levels are just the right size, densely packed with stars and secrets, very little filler, even the red coins are more fun than the comets in Galaxy. I absolutely agree that it's mechanically dated, with the camera issues and hit detection, and even the way Mario moves, but I still think that - while Galaxy and Odyssey may be better overall by modern standards - Mario 64 is the least repetitive, least padded, and most fast paced. I think it holds up incredibly well, and feels like a work of of creative brilliance in a way that only Galaxy has approached.

Yeah I would tend to agree with all that, I think that's what makes it particularly frustrating it hasn't had a ground up remaster, and I assume it never will now.

Not too sure how far I am through Galaxy now but it's probably my favourite Mario game of all time already, and a contender for my favourite game ever. To use a tired cliche, it really does feel like I'm hearing Sgt Pepper's for the first time at the age of 39. Unmitigated joy. 

Consignia

Really wish I could play the version of 64 that exists in people's heads. It sounds amazing. Rather than broken mess that is the actual one. There are nuggets of greatness, but it's all bogged down by not being fun to play in the least. 70 stars, Bowser awkwardly thrown into three bombs and dealt with; and that's it for me. The latter levels are just too tedious to even consider. 64DS is the superior version of this, and no one can convince me otherwise.

Sunshine on the other hand, even when it's broken it's at least fun to play. Oodles charm, and I reckon it would be though more highly of if it weren't for the received wisdom that it's bad Mario game. I just wish a few quality of life adjustments had been, such as 60 fps had been done, as coming back to into from Galaxy feels too much like it's wading through treacle.

Galaxy is the best on the collection though, only marred by the fact it's so tied to the Wii's control scheme and they don't translate too well to the Switch a lot of the time. But it's brilliance shines through. If it weren't for Wii nonsense, it could easily have commanded full price as a new game. Not that I'm suggesting it should, I bet Nintendo wished they could, but it's just it really stands up today in terms of what a great game should be.

Kelvin

#22
Quote from: Consignia on September 27, 2020, 10:37:53 PM
Really wish I could play the version of 64 that exists in people's heads. It sounds amazing. Rather than broken mess that is the actual one. There are nuggets of greatness, but it's all bogged down by not being fun to play in the least. 70 stars, Bowser awkwardly thrown into three bombs and dealt with; and that's it for me. The latter levels are just too tedious to even consider.

It's not a version "in my head", but I do increasingly suspect that it's only an experience you can have if you've already played the game a huge amount as a kid, and kept playing it throughout the years. All the stuff that drags the game down now, most notably the camera, are things I'm just used to, and know how to make the most of now. They don't bother me in the same way they clearly do people who haven't played it before, or who haven't played it in years.

Is the camera terrible? Yes, absolutely. But if you can see past the dated mechanical aspects, I still think the core gameplay - the diorama level design, the variety of challenges, the fact you can knock out 10 stars in 15 minutes - what I called the bones of the experiences, are still borderline perfect. If they had kept the game exactly as it is, but sorted the camera and made Mario more responsive, I really think it's brilliance would shine through.

And in fairness to Mario 64, if my time playing 3D All Stars has taught me anything, it's that none of the Mario games have a good camera. Even Galaxy's is unpredictable, confusing and capable of killing you at times. I remember moaning about Odyssey's camera when it first came out, but having played all four games in the last month, I can now confirm it has the best camera by miles.   

QuoteSunshine on the other hand, even when it's broken it's at least fun to play. Oodles charm, and I reckon it would be though more highly of if it weren't for the received wisdom that it's bad Mario game.

Whereas for me, Sunshine is the opposite of 64. Mario feels better to control, certainly, but the ugly worlds, the blue coins, the confusing levels, the busy work, it's just such a frustrating experience, even if it does have moments of brilliance and a nice summery aesthetic. If you strip it back to those core elements again, it just such a vastly inferior experience to Mario 64 when comparing everything except his mobility. 

Big Mclargehuge

Im winding up on Sunshine at the minute. I've still got to do all the Hotel missions and scale mount corona (WAY TO TIME THAT ONE NINTENDO)

what I can say so far is that my memories of this game from 15 years ago were totally rose tinted. my life is a lie.

I seemed to recall the difficulty being surreally difficult at times. Instead; I've scaled most of the levels with reletive ease. Equally some levels i'd previously forgotten i've recently rediscovered are a massive pain in the dick (IM LOOKING AT YOU PINNA PARK LEVEL WHERE YOU GET 3 LOOPS TO SHOOT 20 BALLOONS BUT THE AIMING IS CONSTANTLY SHIFTING!!!)

Im getting better with the shoulder buttons now though I am occasionally accidentally hitting the map button randomly just for where my hands are resting in order to quick toggle between nozzles. The platforming is if anything better than I remembered and seems to be even more precise than the gamecube games (I might be misremembering though) one big problem i've noticed is the "Grabbing" mechanic is painful. particularly in the blooper boss battles in Rico harbour where I lost 2 lives because Mario simply would NOT grab it's stomped tenticles. I remember it being a bit iffy on the gamecube version so I assume it must be down to a really narrow hit box. but on the switch its a near nightmare. same with fruit. you have to be so precise in exactly how you pick it up...Overall; I feel unsure about this one...like 64 it's got a LOT of great ideas and level design going on, but a game that previously took me nearly 7 years to clear; i've ended breezing through in as little as 4 hours gameplay.

I still think it's a good mario game, Im not sure if it's my 3rd favourite anymore though. I think for the time it was brilliant, but much like 64 playing it back after a long absence has just further raised the creaking elements in this game.

on a final note, if they could take the platforming smoothness and the unlocked camera from sunshine and transplant it into 64 i'd buy it again. that is all.

Kelvin

#24
I cannot fathom how it's possible that Nintendo managed to to make literally every shine in Mario Sunshine slightly more obnoxious and irritating than they needed to, and in a different way Every. Single. Time.
Every single shine.

Rotating platforms covered in slippery ridges with broken physics. Obvious routes that lead to dead ends and no coins or characters to indicate the correct path. Flying boss always at such an angle that you cant look up that high when aiming the item used to kill him. Only path through a hotel means touching a tiny patch of hidden slime. Have the control for punching and jumping literally reverse depending on whether you're hanging from a wall or ceiling! Get 8 coins on a squid, but then make getting the shine really glitchy and fatal if you miss. Hide the only path down a hole round the back of the level with no guidance of where to go, and put several other holes nearer, some of which trap you in inescapable areas. Have Mario walk over thin girders surrounded by wind enemies that knock you off with one hit, and force you to swim/climb all the way back round again every time.

It is pure unadulterated shit, from top to bottom. Yes, it's sometimes fun, the camera is better than I remember, maybe even better than Mario Galaxy in hindsight, and obviously the physical act of getting around is pretty satisfying. But I honestly can't remember any core 1st party Nintendo game feeling so unfinished and unintentionally frustrating as this one. It's a mess.     

Thursday

Edit bug is annoying me so I'm posting.

Spiral King

Quote from: Kelvin on October 04, 2020, 05:25:04 PM
I cannot fathom how it's possible that Nintendo managed to to make literally every shine in Mario Sunshine slightly more obnoxious and irritating than they needed to, and in a different way Every. Single. Time.
Every single shine.

Rotating platforms covered in slippery ridges with broken physics. Obvious routes that lead to dead ends and no coins or characters to indicate the correct path. Flying boss always at such an angle that you cant look up that high when aiming the item used to kill him. Only path through a hotel means touching a tiny patch of hidden slime. Have the control for punching and jumping literally reverse depending on whether you're hanging from a wall or ceiling! Get 8 coins on a squid, but then make getting the shine really glitchy and fatal if you miss. Hide the only path down a hole round the back of the level with no guidance of where to go, and put several other holes nearer, some of which trap you in inescapable areas. Have Mario walk over thin girders surrounded by wind enemies that knock you off with one hit, and force you to swim/climb all the way back round again every time.

It is pure unadulterated shit, from top to bottom. Yes, it's sometimes fun, the camera is better than I remember, maybe even better than Mario Galaxy in hindsight, and obviously the physical act of getting around is pretty satisfying. But I honestly can't remember any core 1st party Nintendo game feeling so unfinished and unintentionally frustrating as this one. It's a mess.   

I have never finished Sunshine. I have never 100%ed Sunshine.

I am 98 stars into Mario 64. I am afraid for what awaits me.

Edit: Also, I really like Mario 64, after not liking it for a long while. What it did for the industry cannot be overstated. It's wanky to call it the Shakespeare of 3D gaming, but it really is. Including why some people cannot stand it. Mario 64 DS can do one though. Half the amazingness of 64 is just using an analog controller to make Mario flip about like an acrobatic nutter.

rue the polywhirl

Adore my play though of Mario Sunshine, but having beat the story I have no urgent desire of getting 100%. Some of the sprites are a bit glitchy or annoying to get but it's so colourful and characterful to explore I don't really have any qualms. Boss Lair and Boss Fight (and End cut scene) must possibly be the lamest in all game history. Mario 64 I've played for about 5 minutes before deciding what is point. About to commence on Super Mario Galaxy.

Spiral King

So, I finished my second (and probably last) 100% Super Mario 64 run, and it was very enjoyable! Last time, I played it emulated on my PC with a GameCube controller, and I have to say that the Switch Pro Controller made a world of difference. The octagonal gate of the GameCube is not really well suit for much but Smash, and I just a had a lot of fun just side flipping and triple jumping around Peach's castle for the first 15 minutes of my playthrough this time around. The majority of the stars (around 90) are extraordinarily fun to get. The remaining 30, or so, are complete bullshit. I still can't believe that the 100 coin Stars made it past the prototype phase of development. Just. Not fun.

I started my Super Mario Sunshine playthrough a few days ago, and I'm enjoying it more than I thought I would! Coming straight after 64 has helped me embrace it a lot, I think. That and the HD presentation. It looks so good for a basic upscaled game from 2002. About 20 stars in and it's still charming the trousers off of me. Hopefully this continues on until I hit some of the harder stuff (Pachinko, sky bird, blue coins). Very excited to round it off with a complete Galaxy run... I've replayed that game three times and it's held up consistently.

Spiral King

So, I just finished and 100% completed Super Mario Sunshine for the first time about a day ago. Firstly, everything Kelvin wrote about this game is absolutely correct, and secondly, do not complete this game 100%. I thought I wanted to, but it is absolutely not worth it. Leaving it at 60 Shines and Bowser is the best way to seek out any enjoyment from the title.

The number of times I felt like saying "well, that wasn't my fault at all" to my television, or tensed-up-accidental-menu-activation reactions when I died... This game was not finished. You can't convince me otherwise. Without doing any research at all into the development of the game, I have to believe another seven levels were at least planned because the fact there are only seven areas, with eight missions (which mostly repeat with half of them), points to a totally rushed dev cycle. It also doesn't help that half of the areas are just... really obnoxious in their presentation. And it's a shame, because the first half of the base game is actually really charming, and does hold up really well in HD. The problem is that it asks you to lean on liking that style and atmosphere through some of the most tedious and obtuse gameplay in a Mario game (ex. the Yoshi Shine in Ricco Harbour and the Yoshi stage in the hotel). I always wondered why Galaxy pulled a hard left turn into more linear design, and Sunshine is my answer.

I used to believe I didn't like Sandbox Mario. Heavy playthroughs of 64 and Odyssey prove this is not the case, and that Sunshine (the first 3D Mario I played back in 2004) was what I didn't like. Bad. Bad game.

I'm onto Galaxy right now and it's such a breath of fresh air. Still gives me goosebumps and feelings of awe on my 4th go around. Good stuff.