Topic: Musical gear wanking thread

[Sherman Krank]

Don't know much about Orville tbh

Forgot to say....

Orville are named for Gibson founder Orville Gibson. They're basically Gibson's version of Fender Japan, that is to say they produce official licensed copies of the US guitars that are supposed to only be sold in Japan.
In the early eighties as part of a deal between Fuji-Gen gakki and then Fender owners CBS Records, Fuji-Gen were allowed to make Fender branded guitars and basses for the domestic Japanese market (with Fuji-Gen's export guitars being branded as Squier).

A few years later Gibson's Japanese distributors Yamano Gakki wanted to start making 'domestic' Gibsons and Gibson being Gibson initially refused but then said they could use the name Orville instead.

Of course these days it's fairly easy to import Japanese 'domestics' to most countries but brokerage fees, shipping costs and import duty greatly increases the cost to the buyer.

I've noticed recently that the likes of guitar guitar are now punting new Fender Japan imports which are being priced between the Mexican and US models.

I had one of those Gibson melody makers with two pickups and it was pretty obviously finished as cheaply as possible. Swapped it for my Jaguar which I liked a lot more.

If you're buying a guitar to play then a Gibson is the last thing you should buy.
If however you're buying a guitar to stick under your bed for several years then punt to some mug on the net to at least get your money back then a Gibson Ltd edition is the way to go.

Gibson's slogan should be 'For the collectors and speculators not the players'.

[FerriswheelBueller]

Deffo gonna get one and refinish/rewire it to look like David Byrne’s in Stop Making Sense. Don’t care if that’s a shit idea, I need this.

[Sherman Krank]

^ Byrne’s was actually a Musicmaster II exactly like this one...
https://guitarchimp.com/products/1966-fender-musicmaster-ii-olympic-white-vintage-electric-guitar
... except he had some kind of humbucker pickup added to the bridge position.

If you're planning to fuck with it yourself then it would make more sense to get a second hand Squier off of ebay or Reverb (you might even get an olympic white one).

If you're getting it modded by someone else then it'll cost at least £500 for a refin, pickup, pickguard and wiring. All the player strats are factory routed for HSH and I've seen some Mustang and Duo-Sonic variants with Humbuckers and P90's so the Mustangs may all be HH routed which would save some time and money.

If you have my luck then 5 minutes after you commit to doing it Fender will announce an FSR Byrne tribute model.




I was so pleased with my Player Strat that I've just bought the short scale Player Mustang bass in FSR metallic lake placid blue.



It's great having a bass I can play for more than 15 minutes without getting overstretching pains in my tiny Trump like hand.
The just about adequate pickup selector switch lets it down though so I'll likely be swapping that out for a mini blend pot.


Even though the Katana has a bazillion built in Boss effects I've also bought some pedals.


Amazon selling these clones for around the same price as 50 grams of Gold Leaf baccy, mad.


The EHX Soul Food is my first Klon clone, I much prefer it to the tube screamer and Boss OD type circuits.

I've got enough left from the money I had saved up to get a cheapish looper pedal.
Currently looking at the £70 Donner Circle which has a decent built in drum machine which would allow me to jam with myself without having to boot up the PC and run a DAW.

[FerriswheelBueller]

I’d do it myself, orbit sander to take off the finish and respray. Scratch plate replacement off eBay or somewhere (possibly just order the parts from fender), hour with the soldering iron and call it a day.

[Better Midlands]

Amazon selling these clones for around the same price as 50 grams of Gold Leaf baccy, mad.

Amazon have a range of own brand pedals costing around £30-£40 - reviews have them as "not terrible".

[Sherman Krank]

^ yeah seen them, they're just NUX pedals with different printing and they come in some bubble wrap and an envelope rather than a box to keep costs lower. Not as yet available in the UK most likely because they wont fit through UK letter boxes.
The Donner mini pedals are the same thing as are the Kokko pedals although they at least change the colour for them.
TLDR - Pretty much all cheap stomp boxes that aren't behringer are made by a massive Chinese company called Cherub Technology.
Edit - Forgot about Shenzhen Mooer Audio they make a bunch of pedals for other companies (I think they make most of the Donner pedals).

[kalowski]

I have a load of Tone City pedals. Think they're also Chinese built devices and look similar.
But they sound OK to me.

[Sherman Krank]

I’d do it myself, orbit sander to take off the finish and respray. Scratch plate replacement off eBay or somewhere (possibly just order the parts from fender), hour with the soldering iron and call it a day.

The scratch plate won't be that easy to get hold of though I just remembered that the Cyclone is a thing that Fender occasionally make. It's a Mustang based model and one variant has the same pickup configuration as Byrne's guitar. Had a look and there's a german ebay lad doing a Cyclone plate that's exactly what you'd want but it looks like he only does them in black or white.
Axesrus do a Cyclone plate in red tortoise shell but it has the vintage Mustang style slots above the pickups for on/off switches so you'd need to put up with those and drill a hole for the 3 way selector switch.
Fender will be of no use for a non-standard part but there's a bunch of places like Sims that will make a custom plate to order (for about £30-50).

It's weird how Byrne only seems to play that guitar when he's in black and white but I did manage to find a picture where his arm isn't obscuring the added pickup.
It looks to be a bog standard Gibson PAF style covered humbucker in a black plastic mounting ring that's just screwed to the plate. As far as the pickup goes something vintage wound (DC res around 7.5 to 9) would give a more authentic sound.

[FerriswheelBueller]

The scratch plate won't be that easy to get hold of though I just remembered that the Cyclone is a thing that Fender occasionally make. It's a Mustang based model and one variant has the same pickup configuration as Byrne's guitar. Had a look and there's a german ebay lad doing a Cyclone plate that's exactly what you'd want but it looks like he only does them in black or white.
Axesrus do a Cyclone plate in red tortoise shell but it has the vintage Mustang style slots above the pickups for on/off switches so you'd need to put up with those and drill a hole for the 3 way selector switch.
Fender will be of no use for a non-standard part but there's a bunch of places like Sims that will make a custom plate to order (for about £30-50).

It's weird how Byrne only seems to play that guitar when he's in black and white but I did manage to find a picture where his arm isn't obscuring the added pickup.
It looks to be a bog standard Gibson PAF style covered humbucker in a black plastic mounting ring that's just screwed to the plate. As far as the pickup goes something vintage wound (DC res around 7.5 to 9) would give a more authentic sound.

Appreciate all the research on my behalf! As much as I love Our David, I’d actually prefer a two pickup model so I can do out of phase stuff. Was considering getting the control panel for a Jaguar and trying to incorporate that somehow to remind me of the one I had (and loved) but I’m getting way ahead of myself as I haven’t wielded a soldering iron on a guitar in 10+ years*. I reckon eBay will be my friend but we will see.

Speaking of, I had a look for scratch plates - there are Chinese knockoffs on eBay which might do the job. I could get a big sheet of tortoiseshell from somewhere and borrow a jigsaw from the local tool library to cut and chamfer my own it things got desperate.

This will be a longer project I think to take my mind off the triumvirate stress of graduate school / buying and moving into a house / unemployment from a well paying job (that to be fair I detest), all of which will kick in over the next 6 weeks so I imagine the scope will evolve over time and it likely won’t be done any time soon.

Onwards and upwards!

_{*Well, a cigarette lighter and the edge of a butter knife + solder, but it’s all the same innit. That was back when I was cool and punk and had an ethos. Now I’ll pop down to the B&Q equivalent and get a soldering iron. Pathetic.}

[Sherringford Hovis]

Not reading any of this thread, but if your onanism centres around legacy gear in particular, there's a once-in-a-blue-moon fap-goldmine here:

https://www2.ppauctions.com/auction/306/bbc-wales-3-day-sale

[Nobody Soup]

I did something very un-me over lockdown, I got into all these technical dudes and thought instead of just playing vintagey fenders I am going to get a fancy shred style guitar.



the roasted maple neck is ridiculously amazing.

I'm kind of interested in the iridium, I own a crappy amp (because my bassist bandmate had a VoxAC15 and I just used that live) but I was thinking of getting a low wattage good amp, but I'm aware that might not fit my needs, I dunno if I'd be able to play it very loud very often and as everyone has mentioned, recording it can be a pain, so the other option is modelling. thing is though, if I did own an iridium for example, would I not need an amp to actually hear it, and if it's a crap amp will it not still be kinda crap?

[easytarget]

so the other option is modelling.

There are some excellent VSTs for free out there.

high gain - one of the four of these : https://ml-sound-lab.com/products/amped-roots
fake Orange : https://blackroosteraudio.com/en/products/cypress_tt-15
various marshalls : https://vst4free.com/dev/258/
more super high gain and an 'impulse response unit' : https://www.stltones.com/products/stl-ignite-emissary-plug-in-bundle?gclid=CjwKCAiAzNj9BRBDEiwAPsL0d9T4FJC-CnN_Djt23MGQItaXXTjomcb6jjSMTvY5_qv1vZHU8ERBQBoCa_4QAvD_BwE

have fun!

[ArtParrott]

Interesting move from BEHRINGER https://youtu.be/Vtwwlv60Vkg essentially copying Arturias keystep knob for knob.

Thankfully YouTube comments are calling them out for the most part although part of me wonders if this is even real. Post-truth gear.

Edit to add: at the end of the video the host hints at a Behringer DAW, wonder what they’ll base that on.

[grainger]

FFS Behringer.

[buzby]

Interesting move from BEHRINGER https://youtu.be/Vtwwlv60Vkg essentially copying Arturias keystep knob for knob.

Thankfully YouTube comments are calling them out for the most part although part of me wonders if this is even real. Post-truth gear.

to the surprise of no-one. Ulli really is shameless. there's some serious cognitive dissonance going on in the comments too - "I was happy with what they were repping off up to now, but not this!"

[grainger]

Well, in the synth world, they hadn't ripped off any modern products, at least not this blatantly. There's arguably a big moral difference between reproducing long out-of-production synths and making a clone of a current product, which will have a cooling effect on innovation.

Of course, Behringer have plenty of form for this in cloning other music tech gear, and they cloned the Mother 32 (somewhat less blatantly). Then there was the obnoxious "cork sniffing" video from last year.. That said, this near 100% copy, down to the locations of logos, does seem to me a step further. Is it a provocation, a test to see what they can get away with?

[PlanktonSideburns]

Fast-fourier Behringer.

[buzby]

Well, in the synth world, they hadn't ripped off any modern products, at least not this blatantly. There's arguably a big moral difference between reproducing long out-of-production synths and making a clone of a current product, which will have a cooling effect on innovation.

Of course, Behringer have plenty of form for this in cloning other music tech gear, and they cloned the Mother 32 (somewhat less blatantly). Then there was the obnoxious "cork sniffing" video from last year.. That said, this near 100% copy, down to the locations of logos, does seem to me a step further. Is it a provocation, a test to see what they can get away with?

Behringer's 303 and 808 clones are unlicenced copies of existing open source clone projects. Their ARP Odyssey clone came out 4 years after after Korg re-released it. The Moog Voyager (which is basically an updated Model D) has never been out of production and Moog re-released the Model D as a limited edition in 2016. The DSI Mopho from 2009 is basically the Pro One MkII and Behringer announced they were cloning the Prophet 5 while Dave Smith was working on his reissue. None of these were long out of production.

[grainger]

This Keystep rip-off is still much more blatant, being an almost exact copy with a different colour theme applied.

I believe that all the others were machines long out of patent. Moog don't own the patent on the Model D, so Behringer is as entitled to make a Model D reissue as they are.

That's very different from openly copying a current product almost exactly, and is likely to have a cooling effect on innovation in the industry - the others, not so much, I think.

[buzby]

This Keystep rip-off is still much more blatant, being an almost exact copy with a different colour theme applied.

The Behringer Odyssey is a virtually exact copy visually of the ARP/Korg original it's cloned from, with the same colour scheme. Same with the panel of their Pro One clone , even to using the same American Uncial font Sequential used for it's nameplates

I believe that all the others were machines long out of patent. Moog don't own the patent on the Model D, so Behringer is as entitled to make a Model D reissue as they are.

There are two types of patent. A utility patent, which in synths covers how it works and includes things like the circuit designs (such as Moog's filter patent, which ARP fell foul of when they released the Odyssey), and a design patent which covers how it looks. Utility patents are valid for 14 years (in the MiniMoog's case they expired in the late 80s), design patents are valid for 20 years  About the only thing that would still have any legal protection are circuit board artwork and ROM contents, if the original manufacturer bothered to copyright them. However, in the case of Moog and Korg, as they reissued the products before Behringer cloned them, the design patents may have been reapplied (if they thought long enough ahead). There's certainly enough there to form the basis of a 'passing off' case.

Roland did successfully sue Behringer (to the point of an out of court settlement and forcing them to change their designs) for visually and functionally cloning their Boss effects pedals in 2005.  However, the problem for anyone wanting to sue Behringer now is that the company moved it's headquarters to China in 2018. I don't think any foreign company has ever been successful in pursuing an IP protection case through the Chinese courts.

That's very different from openly copying a current product almost exactly, and is likely to have a cooling effect on innovation in the industry - the others, not so much, I think.

The cloning of the Odyssey and their announcement of their (yet to appear) ARP 2600 clone certainly seems to have put the brakes on Korg's own ARP 2600 reissue plans. Ulli's bragging about cloning the Prophet 5 is probably what led Dave Smith to get his out first, using development time that DSI could have been using on something else. Arturia did make their name through making VST clones of classic synths, so you could say there's an element of what comes around goes around.

[grainger]

The Behringer Odyssey is a virtually exact copy visually of the ARP/Korg original it's cloned from, with the same colour scheme. Same with the panel of their Pro One clone , even to using the same American Uncial font Sequential used for it's nameplates

Yes, I know, but those are ancient products, out of patent. If you're remaking an old product, you arguably should make it look the same: a big part of the appeal is nostalgia. That's very different from cloning a current product. Clearly you don't agree, but we'll have to agree to differ.

Arturia did make their name through making VST clones of classic synths, so you could say there's an element of what comes around goes around.

OK... So you think any remake or a hardware synth - in hardware or software - is immoral if it isn't by the original manufacturer? And what constitutes the original manufacturer anyway?

Look, I'm starting to sound like I agree with those weird Behringer apologists who very quickly start chanting "Capitalism hell yeah" and punching the air, when actually I despise the scummy moves made by Behringer. But neither am I going to take the opposite extreme position. Copying a current product almost identically, even to the point where it seems they're testing the waters of how much further they can push this, is not even remotely the same as cloning a classic synth from several decades before. This is an attack on a relatively small innovator in the market, could also have a huge chilling effect on R&D in the market, and also might be a sign of worse to come.

As you will know, a few years Behringer made a big deal about turning over a new leaf, buying up reputable companies that actually develop new stuff, then coming out with their own, quality new synths. That's why people might be legitimately surprised and pissed off now. True, the signs have been there for a while, but I'm not going to be surprised if people pick up on some things and not others.

[ArtParrott]

I'm feeling preeeetty bad about fouling up this thread with this Behringer business now, when there's a perfectly good Behringer thread it could have been dumped in. To get back on with the gear wanking, here's a picture of my "studio".

Sidenote - Also posting this here for posterity, got a baby due next year and will be slimming this setup down somewhat.

[Better Midlands]

Nice Spaceman 3 - Big City artwork - I love that track.

You gonna leave it there for the baby?

Do you find you use the OP-1 much?

[FerriswheelBueller]

How do you like the danelectro xii? Wonderfully underrated guitars I reckon.

[buzby]

In light of Art's post, I've taken it to DMs. Ultimately you are probably right in that we will have to agree to disagree.

[popcorn]

I thought the Behringer chat was quite interesting.

[ArtParrott]

Nice Spaceman 3 - Big City artwork - I love that track.

You gonna leave it there for the baby?

Do you find you use the OP-1 much?

Currently the mrs. has her stuff in what will be the baby's room, so it's actually her stuff I'm making way for. Might suggest moving the painting in to the soon-to-be nursery though. 

Re: the OP-1, I've used it pretty on and off over the years. It's good at lots of stuff, but not especially great at anything either. I've been mucking about in the evenings doing a lot of sequenced synth/loop stuff so have bought it back out recently for sampling and drum duties. I bought it used for about £450 6 or 7 years ago but it's taken some knocks and is a bit filthy, so I don't think I could sell it and capitalise on the high prices they go for now.

How do you like the danelectro xii? Wonderfully underrated guitars I reckon.

It's good. I'd wanted a 12 string for years and picked it up just before the first lockdown. It's easy to play and sounds good to me, although it doesn't go through distortion pedals particularly nicely. Maybe that's something all 12's struggle from a little bit due to the slight pitch differences between the two strings, I'm not sure.

In light of Art's post, I've taken it to DMs. Ultimately you are probably right in that we will have to agree to disagree.

Sorry Buzby, I didn't mean to offend. Have definitely appreciated all your comments on the Behringer issues in this and the other thread.

[FerriswheelBueller]

Yeah the effects pedals is what I was wondering about (and why I’ve held off on an electric 12 string for the time being). I’d guess echo/chorus type effects would be alright?

Congrats on the nipper! Forgot to say it earlier, you’ll be amazed how much spare time you have now vs in 6 months time. Just remember the first 6 weeks is hard going but it ends and gets so much better.

I’ve also been enjoying the Behringer chat for what it’s worth.

My local guitar store has run out of Fender Mustangs for anyone who is following along with my tedious guitar buying plans (sorry), but the second hand place down the road has this absolutely beautiful 1965 one (in the right colours!) for about 1100 quid which I’m trying very hard to convince myself not to buy as it’s about twice my original budget.

[ArtParrott]

Yeah the effects pedals is what I was wondering about (and why I’ve held off on an electric 12 string for the time being). I’d guess echo/chorus type effects would be alright?

Congrats on the nipper! Forgot to say it earlier, you’ll be amazed how much spare time you have now vs in 6 months time. Just remember the first 6 weeks is hard going but it ends and gets so much better.

I’ve also been enjoying the Behringer chat for what it’s worth.

My local guitar store has run out of Fender Mustangs for anyone who is following along with my tedious guitar buying plans (sorry), but the second hand place down the road has this absolutely beautiful 1965 one (in the right colours!) for about 1100 quid which I’m trying very hard to convince myself not to buy as it’s about twice my original budget.

Well I assume it's either the strings or the lipstick pickups, but I know even less about that sort of thing to speculate on whether they could be to blame. But yeah, sounds great through your delays, 'verbs and mods though.

And thanks, whatever I'm left with after I take this setup down will be centered around making the most of a spare 10-15 minutes to turn everything on just to make something. Obviously I've had buckets of extra spare time to do music this year so I won't hold too much resentment against the baby once they're here taking up all our time.

Says '95 Mustang in that links title btw, and '65 in the URL. Looks nice but I always find those Mustang pickups quite strange looking.

[DJ Bob Hoskins]

Yeah the effects pedals is what I was wondering about (and why I%u2019ve held off on an electric 12 string for the time being). I%u2019d guess echo/chorus type effects would be alright?

...

My local guitar store has run out of Fender Mustangs for anyone who is following along with my tedious guitar buying plans (sorry), but the second hand place down the road has this absolutely beautiful 1965 one (in the right colours!) for about 1100 quid which I%u2019m trying very hard to convince myself not to buy as it%u2019s about twice my original budget.

I also have a Danelectro 12-string (the version with f-hole) and it is terrific but if you've never played one it's worth pointing out that the body is basically made from fibreboard so feels a bit cheap and tacky (and headstock-heavy), but ultimately it plays very nicely (great neck) and nails that Mr Tambourine Man type sound just like a Rickenbacker costing 5 times as much.

I also agree with ArtParott - they pair really well with reverbs, modulations, delays (a bit of overdrive/compression also doesn't hurt), but not with full-on distortion type pedals. But then, I always wanted a 12-string for that classic 12-string sound and didn't really expect that it would cover many other bases.

...

As for that Mustang, I'm no expert but given the crazy prices for vintage ones on Reverb.com that seems like a decent price for a refinished model. The closest thing I've seen in real life was on a trip to the USA last year where I played a lovely 1974 Mustang (also refinished, but not in great condition cosmetically) which was going for about USD 1200 plus tax. I assume even a refinished 60s model will only ever appreciate in value. If you have the chance to try it out and it feels right, then it's definitely worth considering.