US Elections 2020 III - Mo Cuntery for Old Men

[druss]

 

A lot of folks often say on here (Lynne Benfield69 and rjd2 being the two latest on just this page on this thread)  that if Trump's voted out this year then in 4 years or 8 years we get the real bad Trump, playing to the same right wing populist extremism while also being proper Machiavellian and knowing what's what; but is it so naive to think that's not such an inevitability and that's Trump's success was a perfect storm of a lot of disparate factors that's unlikely to be repeated?

Part of his phenomena was that he was a known charismatic celebrity loose cannon who the establishment didn't take seriously until it was too late. I just find it hard to see those kind of circumstances coming together in the same way again, and while possible of course I certainly don't see it as a given that someone just steps into his place and gains the same mass appeal/popular fascination.

Remember after Hitler when we got the really bad Hitler? Trump needs to stay in power to stop the really bad Trump from getting in.

Fuck, Godwin's law. I'm out.

[Ferris]

A lot of folks often say on here (Lynne Benfield69 and rjd2 being the two latest on just this page on this thread)  that if Trump's voted out this year then in 4 years or 8 years we get the real bad Trump, playing to the same right wing populist extremism while also being proper Machiavellian and knowing what's what; but is it so naive to think that's not such an inevitability and that's Trump's success was a perfect storm of a lot of disparate factors that's unlikely to be repeated?

Part of his phenomena was that he was a known charismatic celebrity loose cannon who the establishment didn't take seriously until it was too late. I just find it hard to see those kind of circumstances coming together in the same way again, and while possible of course I certainly don't see it as a given that someone just steps into his place and gains the same mass appeal/popular fascination.

Yeah I don't see it as an inevitability either. In fact, the best way to make sure that his brand of crypto fascism doesn't become mainstream again is to have it so soundly defeated at the ballot box that the GOP isn't desperate to nominate trump 2.0 in 2024.

If the democrats win the house, senate, and presidency off the back of 4 years of trump and are able to pack SCOTUS to balance it out then I doubt any republicans will count the trump years as a success that they should attempt to emulate. Add in their demographic problems (their shitty old voters are dying) and it seems pretty unlikely to me.

They'd also need to find a simpleton as bombastic and "empty vessel" as trump and I doubt there's many of those lying around.

[Dog Botherer]

cheer up lads, regardless of what happens, it'll only be stupider and more awful than we can possibly imagine!

[C_Larence]

If the concept of socialism is really so toxic and unpalatable to the American people then why didn't Bernie's campaign just die at the gate rather than racking up a record number of donors in an incredibly crowded field? How did he become the first candidate in history to win the first three contests in the Democratic primary? How did he win California? Why did the U.S. media class find it necessary to wage a relentless smear campaign against him and his supporters if his ideas were already intractable with the voting public? Why were members of the DNC leadership openly working to sabotage his campaign from the get-go and why was it necessary for Obama to intercede and personally convince two viable candidates to withdraw from the race the day before Super Tuesday - an event which has literally never occurred before?

Is it possible that the increasingly pronounced and frantic efforts of the establishment to sandbag the Sanders movement on behalf of capital (as with Corbyn over here) are evidence not of public apathy towards social democratic reform, but of the exact opposite? Did nobody else notice how fucking scared these guys were when Bernie was winning and how desperately they worked to stop him? Do we really need to come away from this shrugging our shoulders and saying he never had a chance in the first place? Do we need to accept and internalise every self-insulating premise that the establishment have come up with to keep us believing that progress is futile? Do we need to hide our submission beneath a cynical, misanthropic mask because we've simply had the will to fight bludgeoned out of us?

Anyway, I guess it doesn't really matter at this point. Looking forward to the sensible, pragmatic politics of Biden appointing Mitt Romney as secretary of invading Iran or whatever.

This is a beautiful post. They really are terrified and they only have so much time left. "You can cut all the flowers but you cannot stop the spring from coming."

[Old Nehamkin]

Remember after Hitler when we got the really bad Hitler? Trump needs to stay in power to stop the really bad Trump from getting in.

Fuck, Godwin's law. I'm out.

America already had a president worse than Trump. He served from 2001-2009 and, among other things, he slaughtered more than a million people. Today he is utterly revered by the leaders of the Democratic party and his accomplices have been welcomed with open arms into the inner circles of the Biden campaign. I don't think it's simply a glib accelerationist impulse that makes some people very gravely concerned about the impact that an administration dominated by these resurgent neocon ghouls (and led by one of their longtime allies) will have on the trajectory of America's Overton window in the coming years.

[kngen]

I could see, if he loses next week, Trump running again in 2024 (if he's still alive). An absolutely addled, slavvering Trump, but one that will still get all the MAGA gorons out of their socialist-proof bunkers to support him again, thus muddying the waters of the primaries and leaving the GOP grandees despairing. It's a nice thought, if nothing else.

[Menu]

I have no experience of the German or French systems though, I can only compare the US and UK because I've experienced both.

Oh I don't mean you specifically. I mean the debate around the NHS generally. It's always presented as a binary choice: The NHS or What America Has. I think it's so damagingly reductive. I've got family in Germany, Holland and France. They can't believe how much biter it is there than here, let alone America. God knows what an American must think when they use a European health service. They must think they've died and gone to heaven. The europeans worked out how to set up a health service decades ago. You need to (1)fund it properly(10% of GDP every year), (2) make it as patient-focussed as possible. And (3)pay the staff properly. We only rarely come anything close to any of those three.

[Satchmo Distel]

I could see, if he loses next week, Trump running again in 2024 (if he's still alive). An absolutely addled, slavvering Trump, but one that will still get all the MAGA gorons out of their socialist-proof bunkers to support him again, thus muddying the waters of the primaries and leaving the GOP grandees despairing. It's a nice thought, if nothing else.

Trump hates losers and he'd be running as the guy who lost to Sleepy Joe. Can't see it happening.

[Zetetic]

You need to (1)fund it properly(10% of GDP every year), (2) make it as patient-focussed as possible. And (3)pay the staff properly. We only rarely come anything close to any of those three.

2 and 3 follow from 1 in large part.

Arguably a lot of the English reforms have attempted to make their NHS a lot more like the continental Bismarck models, but they've mostly proven to be completely irrelevant one way or the other (and I say that as someone who's broadly opposed to them) when you compare the English NHS with the other three NHSs of the UK.

Mostly because there's no money in the system, no healthcare staff to buy with what money there is, and extremely limited management+admin capacity (creating more demand on healthcare staff). (And England's probably the best off of the four with respect to all these things, particularly if you consider the different demographics and geographies involved.)

I guess it's then whether you think the problem is to do with:
1) It being harder to convince people to fund something with the perceived tax-funded monolithic nature of the NHS(s), or
2) It being harder to convince the Anglo-British electorate to fund anything

[Urinal Cake]

If Trump loses, Trump loves playing the martyr so I can't see him running again. He'll live to make sure the world sees how great he was.

QAnon and MAGA both should have enough legs to influence the next GOP primary in 2024. The issue is if the GOP establishment rollover or try to stop it.

[Old Nehamkin]

#BREAKING: Joe Biden speaks on Philadelphia unrest.

Reporter: "What do you say to Philadelphia residents that are outraged by yet another unarmed Black man being shot by police?"

Biden: "What I say is that there is no excuse whatsoever for the looting and the violence."

https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1321509720629411842

[BlodwynPig]

https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1321509720629411842

Glad this schmuck will be voted out of office next week

[bgmnts]

"What do you say to Philadelphia residents that have been ordered by the authorities to loot and be violent?"

"What I say is that there is no excuse whatsoever for the looting and the violence."

[Urinal Cake]

It's to be expected. Don't want to scare off the white suburban folk who are scared of black people.

[rjd2]

Its very hard to replicate Trump thankfully , but if you are a a Hawley, Cotton, Carlson type chap fixated on 2024 I actually think Biden winning probably suits you better than Trump.

Hot take obviously!

[brat-sampson]

I mean he's a presidential candidate ahead in all the polls with under a week to go. He's not going to tell folks to tool up and hit the streets power to the people ACAB can't roast pigs without fires etc.

If you want Twitter to like you, then yes, great plan, but if you want to actually sit at the head of the USA next January then you have zero choice today but too keep your neck riiiiiiight the way in.

[Urinal Cake]

It would've helped to say something about the shooting itself. But Biden knows which demographics are important to placate first.

[Old Nehamkin]

can't wait for trump's stain to be vanquished by a much more dignified brand of white supremacist authoritarianism

This election cycle is making me feel insane and I think I'm gonna do myself the mercy of logging off from the whole thing for a while.

[Menu]

2 and 3 follow from 1 in large part.

Arguably a lot of the English reforms have attempted to make their NHS a lot more like the continental Bismarck models, but they've mostly proven to be completely irrelevant one way or the other (and I say that as someone who's broadly opposed to them) when you compare the English NHS with the other three NHSs of the UK.

Mostly because there's no money in the system, no healthcare staff to buy with what money there is, and extremely limited management+admin capacity (creating more demand on healthcare staff). (And England's probably the best off of the four with respect to all these things, particularly if you consider the different demographics and geographies involved.)

I guess it's then whether you think the problem is to do with:
1) It being harder to convince people to fund something with the perceived tax-funded monolithic nature of the NHS(s), or
2) It being harder to convince the Anglo-British electorate to fund anything

Yes it's basically making sure the investment is sustained and massive. Otherwise it's just rearranging the chairs on the Titanic. But once that investment is sustained you could implement some efficiency reforms, computerised records etc etc.

[Urinal Cake]

Next week we party like it's 2008!

[Menu]

I mean he's a presidential candidate ahead in all the polls with under a week to go. He's not going to tell folks to tool up and hit the streets power to the people ACAB can't roast pigs without fires etc.

If you want Twitter to like you, then yes, great plan, but if you want to actually sit at the head of the USA next January then you have zero choice today but too keep your neck riiiiiiight the way in.

Yes, we don't need any fuck ups at the last minute. It's tough for people like us but he's right to appeal to the swing voters who will decide the election. Trump needs to get beaten.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1321509720629411842

Wouldn't Bobby Kennedy also have said that?

What we need in the United States is not division; what we need in the United States is not hatred; what we need in the United States is not violence or lawlessness; but love and wisdom, and compassion toward one another, and a feeling of justice toward those who still suffer within our country, whether they be white or they be black.

So I shall ask you tonight to return home, to say a prayer for the family of Martin Luther King, that's true, but more importantly to say a prayer for our own country, which all of us love--a prayer for understanding and that compassion of which I spoke.

We can do well in this country. We will have difficult times; we've had difficult times in the past; we will have difficult times in the future. It is not the end of violence; it is not the end of lawlessness; it is not the end of disorder.

But the vast majority of white people and the vast majority of black people in this country want to live together, want to improve the quality of our life, and want justice for all human beings who abide in our land.

Let us dedicate ourselves to what the Greeks wrote so many years ago: to tame the savageness of man and make gentle the life of this world.

[Zetetic]

some efficiency reforms

???

[Mobius]

It's really hard to choose, but Jared Kushner must be up there for absolute slimiest evil people in the White House

https://www.axios.com/kushner-woodward-trump-doctors-811f183e-b43c-4559-9083-376994ca87e2.html

[Thomas]

If the concept of socialism is really so toxic and unpalatable to the American people then why didn't Bernie's campaign just die at the gate rather than racking up a record number of donors in an incredibly crowded field? How did he become the first candidate in history to win each of the first three contests in the Democratic primary? How did he win California? Why did the U.S. media class find it necessary to wage a relentless smear campaign against him and his supporters if his ideas were already intractable with the voting public? Why were members of the DNC leadership openly working to sabotage his campaign from the get-go and why was it necessary for Obama to intercede and personally convince two viable candidates to withdraw from the race the day before Super Tuesday - an event which has literally never occurred before?

My own comments the other day - about the word 'socialism' striking a terror chord in the US - were about the leading establishment Dems, those at the forefront of the supposedly 'left wing' option. It is toxic to them - or they at least perceive it to be toxic to the electorate.

As you rightly say, Sanders and AOC and their millions of supporters demonstrate that there's a huge appetite for progressive policies. I was just observing that the people now battling the Republicans on the political frontline fear these words as though they're electoral poison. Even Sir Kier isn't afraid of the word 'socialist'.

I like ur post and agree with its summations. I think I also agree with you (though I am less educated on all of this than yourself) that Bush was worse than Trump. Trump has presented us with a brand new vision of insane public conduct, but Bush played by the grammatical rules of President (earning him this retrospective respectability across both parties) and managed to install some deeply entrenched horrors.

That said, I'd like to restate my hot-take position that Trump is very bad.

[Menu]

???

Eg, making sure the NHS actively tries to lower the price set by Big Pharma rather than complacently paying whatever the companies demand because the NHS is flush with cash. I realise that is a pretty unrealistic hypothetical.

[Zetetic]

The four NHSs routinely negotiate down pharmaceutical prices.

(Edit: Both the vast majority of stuff dispensed, via the drug tariff, but also very expensive licensed stuff like Orkambi.)

[Old Nehamkin]

My own comments the other day - about the word 'socialism' striking a terror chord in the US - were about the leading establishment Dems, those at the forefront of the supposedly 'left wing' option. It is toxic to them - or they at least perceive it to be toxic to the electorate.

As you rightly say, Sanders and AOC and their millions of supporters demonstrate that there's a huge appetite for progressive policies. I was just observing that the people now battling the Republicans on the political frontline fear these words as though they're electoral poison. Even Sir Kier isn't afraid of the word 'socialist'.

I like ur post and agree with its summations

Oh, for the record my post wasn't directed at your own one or anyone else's specifically. It was was just a bit of a ramble that's been rattling around my head over the last couple of weeks RE: a few different takes I've seen on here, on twitter and some other places which position the downfall of the Sanders campaign as the inevitable result of some immovable popular hostility to all things socialist.

I always enjoy your posts on this stuff btw.

[Menu]

Of course but would they still do that if they could afford the higher prices anyway. Hope so but it's one of those things that you constantly need to be on top of. Also, as someone who attends hospitals many times a year, I can tell you that some departments/clinics are run so much better than others - even within the same hospital. Just having some reforms based on 'best practice' would make appointments less fucking gruelling for the patient.

[Fambo Number Mive]

Can't see Hans in this video:

https://twitter.com/OxfordDiplomat/status/1321657277296902145

Wonder what Farage will get in return for his endorsement.

Hopefully Farage will isolate for 14 days when he gets back from the US after being in a large group of maskless people without a mask: https://twitter.com/newsboy23/status/1321716318312239105

Actually, can't he just stay in the US?