Going alt-right

[Johnny Yesno]

Someone will have to explain the women only buses. Unless the university thinks the women will be raped on the bus, why not let men use it too?

One obvious reason is to make sure women don't have to wait alone or walk home alone due to the bus being full.

[Johnny Yesno]

Also, getting hit is very unpleasant. But it's not going to leave the same mental scars as rape is it?

I can assure you that getting attacked by a group of strangers stays with you the rest of your life.

[Buelligan]

I'm conclusion, by volume of posts, the answer to "why do people turn alt-right?" is "minibuses".

With one poster advocating for a heavy genetic component, presumably moderating people's reaction to minibuses.

Indeed.  Also the ability of our society, the way its run by our leaders and those that profit from it, to create, enable, allow shortage - the shortage of safety and the shortage of transport, for instance.  And the propensity of individuals to blame or resent other people within the group of ordinary citizens for those shortages - in this case, women for having buses provided for them - rather than asking the big questions - why aren't there enough, more than enough, buses?  Why do some men attack each other for fun and women for fun and sex? 

Does othering or harassing women in "minor" ways lead to an environment where they're seen as "fair game" if they're out alone?  Is it a good thing to physically attack other people, whatever their gender?  Do we all have a role to play in stamping on that?  Where is our responsibility in all of this?

In short, is it the women or even the feminist activists who created either the lack of buses or the violent crime situation?  If not, why should they be resented?

[JaDanketies]

In short, is it the women or even the feminist activists who created either the lack of buses or the violent crime situation?  If not, why should they be resented?

I'd suggest that getting sucked into the alt right is less about being anti-feminist and more about falling for people who appear to be speaking for your concerns. Feeling like nobody's speaking for young white men and grasping at anyone who seems to be. Although when you succumb to the ideology, you would be anti-feminist.

I'm in no way suggesting that the alt-right have a point. I do feel like the left can speak to young white men who feel like the modern world is not concerned about the things they worry about. Unfortunately I don't think that Kier Starmer (or Gordon Brown and Tony Blair) spoke to these young white men. It goes without saying that the Alt Right answer to these issues - resent feminists, equal rights mean equal fights - are bad answers, perhaps borne from jealousy and resentment.

[Buelligan]

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, I was using your example of the women's buses - but my point was, those that control society allow or encourage scarcity because it engenders competition.  People (who get sucked into the alt right) focus their attention on those they see as getting more then them - in your case, women and buses - when they need to be looking at why there is a lack of buses and a violent society.

Alt right recruits are those who (generally) expect to receive (what they see as) their fair share in a society that isn't fair.  They're like children, squabbling and resenting each other over who got the biggest piece of chocolate, rather than thinking about why their parents aren't dividing it fairly and what must be done about that.

[Buelligan]

Maybe considering whether they even need parents or whether they should murder them and boil their heads.

[Phoenix Lazarus]

Maybe considering whether they even need parents or whether they should murder them and boil their heads.

Oedipus Rex for the 1930s.

[idunnosomename]

they're probably all pink with cushions everywhere

[evilcommiedictator]

I'm in no way suggesting that the alt-right have a point. I do feel like the left can speak to young white men who feel like the modern world is not concerned about the things they worry about. Unfortunately I don't think that Kier Starmer (or Gordon Brown and Tony Blair) spoke to these young white men. It goes without saying that the Alt Right answer to these issues - resent feminists, equal rights mean equal fights - are bad answers, perhaps borne from jealousy and resentment.

I think this is a good point - the rich, civility centre asking people to be nice and keep going with what we have now, is not working talking to rather angry and upset low and middle class people who have, remember, just gone through two financial crashes and have a more precarious society than their parents had.

[Buelligan]

I think part of the problem is the focusing on how hard people have it.  Every fucker (nearly every fucker) has it hard (at least by their own reckoning) sometimes.  The way to fix shit is to start caring about how hard it is for others and doing something about it. 

Young white men, like all the other tranches of our expression of humanity, need to cease thinking about themselves as young white men (or whatever), start considering themselves as humans or even just living creatures, sharing a dying planet that we urgently need to fix.

[Sebastian Cobb]

Maureen Lipman has written a great spiel about creeping authoritarianism - https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1312148494061199360.html

[Buelligan]

Is that by Maureen Lipman?  (I don't think it is)

[Sebastian Cobb]

Miriam Margoyles sorry, brain isn't working good today.

[Buelligan]

Yes, she's an entirely better sort of Maureen.  Not even one.  Lovely, farting, Miriam.

[Crisps?]

One obvious reason is to make sure women don't have to wait alone or walk home alone due to the bus being full.

If the point is to protect women then you obviously prioritise women, and allow men on if/when there is available space.

Segregating/separating/dividing people and excluding an entire group of people because of the actions of some of its members is not an acceptable solution to anything, even when done with good intentions.

An obvious answer to women's safety walking home is transport to safely take women home. What's the obvious answer to violence against men walking home? Tough shit? Be a man? It's not as bad? That seems to be what some people think.

If the answer to women being harrassed by men on buses is to exclude all men from buses, what do you do about harrassment, abuse, bullying against women by women? Just pretend it doesn't happen? That it's not as bad?

The answer is to provide solutions that benefit everyone, inclusion, solidarity, with measures to prevent or deal with individual instances of malignant behaviour regardless of the group it comes from.

Different groups separating, blaming and resenting each other is exactly what They want.

[bgmnts]

If the point is to protect women then you obviously prioritise women, and allow men on if/when there is available space.

Or just have a woman only bus.

[Buelligan]

If the answer to women being harrassed by men on buses is to exclude all men from buses, what do you do about harrassment, abuse, bullying against women by women? Just pretend it doesn't happen? That it's not as bad?

Is it as bad?  Speaking as a woman, who's being doing it for a lifetime, I'd say no, no it is not. 

Whatever the answer is it is certainly not to get upset about womens' buses.

[Crisps?]

Thanks for your input, only woman in the world.

[Buelligan]

Are you a woman?  If not, please don't speak for me.  Hell, even if you are, you can fuck off.  You don't get to close people down because you want to pontificate about their experience and they disagree.

And whilst we're at it, you talk as if men were being banned from all buses.  They're not.  Men have been banned from some, specific, buses.  The number of buses involved is infinitesimally small compared with the number of buses they are free to use.  It's like getting upset because you can't get on a school bus or a works' bus because you're not part of the group that bus is catering for.

[Crisps?]

Nobody is "closing you down". You are spewing your bile quite happily.

Nobody is talking about your experience except you, as usual.

Nobody is acting like their experience somehow invalidates someone else's argument, except you.

And whilst we're at it, you talk as if men were being banned from all buses.

I haven't said anything even remotely like that. I've specifically talked about hypothetical university buses intended to keep students safe.

It's like getting upset because you can't get on a school bus or a works' bus because you're not part of the group that bus is catering for.

It would only be like that if school or works buses did not allow men/boys to board.

[bgmnts]

I was hoping my thread about the alt-right would be more civilised.

[JaDanketies]

Perhaps another key benefit to the alt-right is that people can make strident comments about these dicey issues without anyone in the alt right calling them a shithead. The people who the alt-right think are evil shitheads are those who look for nuance and approach issues in a sensitive and empathetic manner (bloody snowflakes). We lefties call everyone evil shitheads.

I mean, we all know this, too. It's the most common criticism about the left and is oft cited as a large part of the reason why we can't get power.

[TrenterPercenter]

Just so you all know.

actually fuck it.

Listen catch up on LBC today between 2-4 today for some eye opening chat from one of their hosts.

I think it quite pertinent to your conversation.

[thenoise]

Perhaps another key benefit to the alt-right is that people can make strident comments about these dicey issues without anyone in the alt right calling them a shithead. The people who the alt-right think are evil shitheads are those who look for nuance and approach issues in a sensitive and empathetic manner (bloody snowflakes). We lefties call everyone evil shitheads.

I mean, we all know this, too. It's the most common criticism about the left and is oft cited as a large part of the reason why we can't get power.

Yeah, I think this too sometimes. I feel like the right nowadays is a rather broader church than the left. You can believe what you want,or (preferably) nothing at all, so long as you support us you are one of us.
It's a particularly attractive proposition to people who are overwhelmed by all the different points of view there are nowadays, and the speed with which cultural change can happen. Like old people, for example.

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

What's meant to be alternative about it anyway? Or is it German for "old"?

[Thursday]

I think it's just a way of rebranding very conservative old-fashioned views for a younger generation.

Although that being said, I don't know if people often identify themselves as alt-right, it seems to be more a label that the left give.

[DistressedArea]

If you make your bus women only, you can get away with a much smaller, less powerful, engine. Think that's probably what's going on here.

[DistressedArea]

What's meant to be alternative about it anyway? Or is it German for "old"?

Pretty sure it's short for altimeter.

[Johnny Yesno]

If the point is to protect women then you obviously prioritise women, and allow men on if/when there is available space.

I don't think you've thought through the practicalities of this.

It would only be like that if school or works buses did not allow men/boys to board.

Both of these buses exclude people who aren't members of their respective organisations. You really need to think your arguments through before posting.

[JaDanketies]

Where you work or whether or not you go to school is not a 'protected characteristic'. From the most basic level, excluding people from a service because they are men is discriminating against a protected characteristic - gender. I would assume that the buses comply with discrimination legislation because they would convincingly assert that they have a good reason to exclude men from the service.

I appreciate that many people do not think excluding cis, white, males, heterosexuals etc is 'the same' as discriminating against oppressed classes, but this is the kind of mindset that funnels angry young white men into the hands of the alt-right. Because the alt right would say it's the same.