New Coal Plant in Cumbria

[Buelligan]

Focused solar arrays are making their way to developing countries as well I think. They're big communal things rather than individual PPV's people put on their roof though.

Things like this:
https://insideclimatenews.org/news/16012018/csp-concentrated-solar-molten-salt-storage-24-hour-renewable-energy-crescent-dunes-nevada

Dunno, seen that.  Prefer things that people can control for themselves, rather than some big man in silver bird running the show every time.  But that's just me, ay.

[Sebastian Cobb]

You don't actually want everyone relying on their own cells though. Individualising the problem is usually way less efficient. E.g. everyone having a boiler in their house is way worse than big district heating systems like they had the other side of the iron curtain.

And if you don't encourage people to put their spare solar back onto the grid, they'll probably start storing it which will mean much less efficient (and environmentally bad) battery storage, rather than giving it to people who could use it now, or into big scale efficient storage mediums.

I'm not even sure personal solar would be viable while making other environmentally friendly changes, like swapping out gas for electric heating.

This does of course come with the caveat that all this pooled infrastructure should be publicly owned, so it's shared fairly.

[Buelligan]

I don't know, you say that about boilers, fine.  I'm not brewing tea or doing the ironing for half the town (I already do the ironing for half the town).  Some things are better done individually.  Do your own fucking ironing.

And I digress, I know people don't iron.  I iron.  I know rich people do because they pay me to do theirs so I choose to do my own, have a bit of that sweet, sweet, rich peoples' luxury for myself.

[Sebastian Cobb]

Well isn't one of the ways poor people were given rich people luxury, or at least significant improvements to their quality of life, traditionally through taxing the rich and building shared infrastructure?

[Buelligan]

Yep.  But I personally dislike managers, so I'm bound to plump for a no managers way of running things.  Doesn't mean we all should.

[touchingcloth]

I don't know, you say that about boilers, fine.  I'm not brewing tea or doing the ironing for half the town (I already do the ironing for half the town).  Some things are better done individually.  Do your own fucking ironing.

And I digress, I know people don't iron.  I iron.  I know rich people do because they pay me to do theirs so I choose to do my own, have a bit of that sweet, sweet, rich peoples' luxury for myself.

I'm a collectivist. I say we should have solar panels and other forms of renewable generation owned collectively by the town, but also that we should have a town iron. You could have it on Mondays when you iron for half the town, and I could have it on Tuesdays to iron my shirts myself because I don't like the way you do the cuffs. I'd let you do the trousers, though.

[Buelligan]

If you had my mayor, you'd tie the iron round his neck and toss him over the mairie.  No managers.  It must be some sort of anarcho-collective ironing circle with a strong bent towards Marxist beverages.

[Paul Calf]

Who the fuck irons their clothes?

[Buelligan]

People who like to step out looking well turned out, old love.

[touchingcloth]

Who the fuck irons their clothes?

It sounds like only Buelligan in her town. But your question is an interesting one, and I'd like to know who the fuck has Buelligan iron their clothes.

[bgmnts]

I havent ironed anything in over 2 years.

[Flouncer]

I've never ironed anything in my fucking life. THERE, BEAT THAT

[Buelligan]

Jesus christ, you must all look like deadbeat bums.

[Nowhere Man]

In a saner world, Cumbria would be a buzzing industry with billions of tourists a year because one of the two greatest comedians of all time (Stan Laurel) came from there

[idunnosomename]

is there no way we could power the national grid with furious masturbation?

[Sebastian Cobb]

is there no way we could power the national grid with furious masturbation?

Wouldn't that make the place look a bit like the reptile world in the Mario Bros film where everything's covered in slime?

[bgmnts]

Imagine the smell, jesus.

[MojoJojo]

I don't know if steel is always the answer,

Is this a Half a King/Shattered Sea reference? I doubt it is, but it would be awesome if it was.

[touchingcloth]

Is this a Half a King/Shattered Sea reference? I doubt it is, but it would be awesome if it was.

Why do you doubt it? That was exactly what I was going for.

[TheBrownBottle]

You don't actually want everyone relying on their own cells though. Individualising the problem is usually way less efficient. E.g. everyone having a boiler in their house is way worse than big district heating systems like they had the other side of the iron curtain.

And if you don't encourage people to put their spare solar back onto the grid, they'll probably start storing it which will mean much less efficient (and environmentally bad) battery storage, rather than giving it to people who could use it now, or into big scale efficient storage mediums.

I'm not even sure personal solar would be viable while making other environmentally friendly changes, like swapping out gas for electric heating.

This does of course come with the caveat that all this pooled infrastructure should be publicly owned, so it's shared fairly.

PV cells simply aren't efficient enough at present to realistically help someone to live 'off the grid', and they're often too expensive for swathes of the population.  We got them plastered across the entire roof in February for a hefty price; even with the cost reduction and credits for surplus to the grid, we still draw down three times more than we return.  And this is in Sydney, where sunshine isn't uncommon.  I don't even have a hydroponic light setup in my roof for horticultural purposes (unlike one of the neighbours).  If I was still in Blighty, I doubt I'd bother with them.  Ground source heat pumps and the like would be a far better energy efficient option for the UK (if we're talking about individualising the problem).

It comes with its flaws, but I agree that pooled infrastructure is the best way to go (until we all have superpowered PV/hydrogen turbines/nuclear fusion plant at our homes.  Technological societies require exponentially more power than previous ones - and few are going to be convinced by the prospect of retrograde steps in conditions - so finding sensible, clean & communal solutions are the way forward.  21st Century green socialism works for me.

[PlanktonSideburns]

provided that the metallurgy plants do not produce emissions or the energy involved in the metallurgy doesn't produce emissions.

lol

[Blumf]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-10-05/exxon-carbon-emissions-and-climate-leaked-plans-reveal-rising-co2-output

Exxon Mobil Corp. has been planning to increase annual carbon-dioxide emissions by as much as the output of the entire nation of Greece, an analysis of internal documents reviewed by Bloomberg shows, setting one of the largest corporate emitters against international efforts to slow the pace of warming.
...
These internal estimates reflect only a small portion of Exxon's total contribution to climate change. Greenhouse gases from direct operations, such as those measured by Exxon, typically account for a fifth of the total at a large oil company; most emissions come from customers burning fuel in vehicles or other end uses, which the Exxon documents don't account for.

That means the full climate impact of Exxon's growth strategy would likely be five times the company's estimate—or about 100 million tons of additional carbon dioxide—had the company accounted for so-called Scope 3 emissions. If its plans are realized, Exxon would add to the atmosphere the annual emissions of a small, developed nation, or 26 coal-fired power plants.

[zomgmouse]

currently in australia we have a prime minister who once brought a lump of coal into parliament to show people they shouldn't be afraid of it. sounds like we're definitely headed for a green future then

[TheBrownBottle]

Scott Morrison could be replaced by a lump of coal and there'd be zero difference.  The problem is that the country is built on the export of natural resources - and he knows that, and the electorate knows that too.

[Sebastian Cobb]

PV cells simply aren't efficient enough at present to realistically help someone to live 'off the grid', and they're often too expensive for swathes of the population.  We got them plastered across the entire roof in February for a hefty price; even with the cost reduction and credits for surplus to the grid, we still draw down three times more than we return.  And this is in Sydney, where sunshine isn't uncommon.  I don't even have a hydroponic light setup in my roof for horticultural purposes (unlike one of the neighbours).  If I was still in Blighty, I doubt I'd bother with them.  Ground source heat pumps and the like would be a far better energy efficient option for the UK (if we're talking about individualising the problem).

It comes with its flaws, but I agree that pooled infrastructure is the best way to go (until we all have superpowered PV/hydrogen turbines/nuclear fusion plant at our homes.  Technological societies require exponentially more power than previous ones - and few are going to be convinced by the prospect of retrograde steps in conditions - so finding sensible, clean & communal solutions are the way forward.  21st Century green socialism works for me.

I'm surprised they're that bad. I guess there's lots of air conditioning in Australia and I think PV cells get worse as they heat up which might be a problem. Germany's a nadir when it comes to natural resources for renewable solar but they've leant into solar so much they generate so much it makes them a net exporter over the course of a day. The fact they closed a lot of their nuclear plants after Fukushima means they're reliant on Polish coal power stations at night, but this is cancelled out on paper through the accountancy of solar (not that it'll be any consolation to the planet however).

[Buelligan]

Yes, I have a friend here who generates far more energy than he could ever use using panels.  He's a rich man and can afford to buy the panels.  Poor people still have to use whatever those in charge decide they'll use for energy.  We pay for the infrastructure, lose power - we had four cuts yesterday - whenever that infrastructure breaks down.  Technological society or no, we go straight to the stone age whenever the big company doesn't work.  And we pay their wages too and keep all their vans milling about the countryside.  Meanwhile, our taxes subsidise nuclear power. 

Imagine if the Germans could use solar power generated elsewhere, the earth is not flat, at night.

[Sebastian Cobb]

Or offshore wind, or tidal, or geothermal.

[MojoJojo]

PV cells simply aren't efficient enough at present to realistically help someone to live 'off the grid', and they're often too expensive for swathes of the population.  We got them plastered across the entire roof in February for a hefty price; even with the cost reduction and credits for surplus to the grid, we still draw down three times more than we return.

I'm surprised by that - do you have air conditioning?

  And this is in Sydney, where sunshine isn't uncommon.  I don't even have a hydroponic light setup in my roof for horticultural purposes (unlike one of the neighbours).  If I was still in Blighty, I doubt I'd bother with them.  Ground source heat pumps and the like would be a far better energy efficient option for the UK (if we're talking about individualising the problem).

Population density is too high for most of the population for ground source heat pumps, never mind the capital costs (and I'm not sure they last long enough to justify the capital investment). I'm lucky enough to have a garden but it's barely the minimum viable size for a heat pump installation - actually getting it installed would be a logistical nightmare. You also have to factor in that if you're using a heat pump, you really want underfloor heating (as heat pumps much more efficient at producing a large amount of warm water rather than a small amount of hot), and that's pretty rare in the UK.

Wind is where the UK has excellent renewable potential, but it's not really viable at individual scale.

[Sebastian Cobb]

It looks like ground source can be put under the property though. That's what passivehaus designs seem to do if air sourced isn't enough.

Another hack seems to be to use an air sourced heater with an electric (or gas) small burner to boost it on very cold days rather than having to spec a much bigger pump for only a handful of days when it's cold.

But really this can benefit from collectivism too. A part of Aberdeen where I used live is going to build a new incinerator (which is supposedly, with capture cleaner than landfill) and the waste heat is going to go into a loop for residences to tap off of. I believe this is done in some industrial parts of the continent too. In Singapore they're trialling cold water loops for efficient district air conditioning. 

I don't know if it took off but I saw something a few years ago about people making PPV's more efficient in hotter climes by pumping water over them to keep them cool. Looks like there's a paper on that here: https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/187913/1/1-s2.0-S2352484717302962-main.pdf

[Buelligan]

It looks like ground source can be put under the property though. That's what passivehaus designs seem to do if air sourced isn't enough.

Another hack seems to be to use an air sourced heater with an electric (or gas) small burner to boost it on very cold days rather than having to spec a much bigger pump for only a handful of days when it's cold.

But really this can benefit from collectivism too. A part of Aberdeen where I used live is going to build a new incinerator (which is supposedly, with capture cleaner than landfill) and the waste heat is going to go into a loop for residences to tap off of. I believe this is done in some industrial parts of the continent too. In Singapore they're trialling cold water loops for efficient district air conditioning.

I don't know if it took off but I saw something a few years ago about people making PPV's more efficient in hotter climes by pumping water over them to keep them cool.

What methods of rubbish disposal are worse than landfill - in any respect?

I know I'm whinging on this but I do feel a bit irritable about the way that we approach all of these issues - linear again - we have all of this rubbish, therefore, we must dispose of it somewhere.  The problem is not where or how to get rid, the problem is the creation of these mountains of waste.  We need to stop thinking and acting like this if we want to continue living on Earth.