Star Trek - Voyager

[crankshaft]

it's like he went in knowing the advisor for Native American cultural stuff wasn't that good and didn't know how to bring it up, so he's just stuck with this character for seven years

Yeah, it's kind of worse than that - the advisor was a white guy who spent 30 years pretending to be Native American.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamake_Highwater

[Wonderful Butternut]

Don't want to set you up to hate Neelix, but he really is fucking annoying, especially in the early series. Remember that his girlfriend is three years old every time they're on screen together.

She's not even 2 at the start, iirc. I think I said earlier in the thread that the Ocampa age thing is really not workable if thought about for more than 5 minutes.

As for Bujold, she had 4 days or something at it before she quit? Not really fair to compare her to Mulgrew.

[purlieu]

Yeah, I was a bit torn on Chakotay - pretty good that there's a Native American main character, less so that he's played for "you crazy Indians and your beliefs eh!"

[Deanjam]

Robbie McNeil and Garrett Wang talk about a lot of this on their Delta Flyers podcast. McNeill is particularly critical of his character in the early episodes. A good listen if you're interested in Voyager, especially for behind the scenes stuff. The audio podcast is free to download, but there's a patreon video subscription that has extras. I've got the basic £4 per month one, where you get the full video podcast, plus the extra interviews they do afterwards with cast/crew.

EDIT: This may be a useful listen if anyone's going on a rewatch, as the podcast is centred around rewatching an new episode per show. Although if you're going a story per day you'll soon surpass their weekly rewatch.

[Deanjam]

Yeah, I was a bit torn on Chakotay - pretty good that there's a Native American main character, less so that he's played for "you crazy Indians and your beliefs eh!"

The problem with it was not only that it was a hodge-podge of different ethnic beliefs [including non American cultures], but he was almost defined by being native. Once they got cold feet about it after Michael Piller left [Chakotay was his baby], the character had nothing left. He couldn't even fill the role of Janeway's love interest as they didn't want her to be sleeping with the crew.

[Lemming]

First-time watchers should be aware that Robert Beltran was notorious for pissing and moaning about the series while it was still airing. Watching him half-arse everything, and occasionally treat his lines with outright contempt, is one of the joys of Voyager. On par with watching Shatner and Kelley just completely fuck about in TOS S3, and watching Alexander Siddig totally give up in the last couple series of DS9.

[JamesTC]

Beltran kept pushing to leave but they kept giving him more money to stay, IIRC.

[purlieu]

Parallax. I love a good spacial anomaly WTF is going on type story, so there was some enjoyable stuff here, but even within the fairly shaky science of Star Trek, this was utter nonsense, wasn't it? I can't get ahold of anything that actually happened. Still, they're hitting the Starfleet vs. Maquis stuff head on from the off, and although the character arc was fairly standard, it was nicely done. I like Torres, and her and Janeway worked well together. The Doctor was given a touch of sympathy at the start before heading off into being a punchline. Wondering where his character will be going.

[oy vey]

What's interesting is that I thought Beltran nailed it in that episode. I really bought Chakotay backing Torres. Yeah, the science was dumb, but I enjoyed it for all the character development. A strong 2nd episode.

[purlieu]

Indeed. It's obvious that we're going to have the two crews gradually adapting to each other - with a few bumps in the road along the way, no doubt - so as long as it's done convincingly, like this was, then I'm going to enjoy the stories. It actually lost a point for me because of just how utterly nonsense and contradictory the science was.

[crankshaft]

Parallax. I love a good spacial anomaly

Then you're going to love Star Trek: Voyager.

[Poobum]

just how utterly nonsense and contradictory the science was.

Just watched Time and Again and that makes Parralax look positively well researched and coherent. I know Star-Trek is guilty of sci-babble in general, but Voyager takes it to an unnecessary level that harms the plot. The basic concept of Time and Again is fine, but lumbered with tortuous

Spoiler alert

paradox guff

[close]

. I'm coming to this re-watch as objective as I can be, and no "well actually" criticism of scientific accuracy is tedious, but, to give a comparison to historical drama, this isn't Henry VIII wearing the wrong type of doublet, but like him going about playing frisbee and riding into battle on a penny farthing.

[Deanjam]

You have to remember that a lot of Voyager's early scripts were recycled from rejected Next Generation ideas. So, not the best.

[JamesTC]

The problem with Time and Again is

Spoiler alert

that they end it with the events all being wiped from history. Your third story and you erase all of the events so they never happened which is a bit of a silly move for a show still establishing characters. Even the great scene with The Doctor is now technically gone. It isn't a bad episode, just a poorly positioned piece of meh.

[close]

[Poobum]

Also had a problem that we're being introduced to the

Spoiler alert

weird and distant delta quadrant and the civilization is just a bunch of humans that all wear the same clothes, with lots of hanging around what is basically an industrial estate

[close]

[petril]

I remember quite liking the setting for the early parts of the series, because despite all the wow magictech teleport, plus it being just after Deep Space "whole new exotic bit of the galaxy that's wild", they ended up in like the shitty bit of the Delta quadrant, where it's like a housing estate, a wrecked canal and retail park with half the tenants it's meant to.

Just nothing like yer proper big Star Trek stuff. was kinda nice.

I mean it did grate a bit with me, but I just wanted the familiarity of all the cool Trek stuff I'd seen in TNG and DS9.

Spoiler alert

I do wish the Romulan message in a bottle wasn't just entirely self contained, and there'd been scope for some background remote detective work trying to find out where it went and if it can be got out properly. I'd have loved the ending tied into the Pathfinder/contacting home stuff, maybe had scope for the crew having to brief the Romulans and do a few odd-jobs for them as well, just to help the War effort a little.

As it was it was still a really good sci-fi episode of a story. And you always needed the early hope spots just to let the audience be sure the premise is sticking around for a bit.

[close]

edit - hid the spoiler-in-context

[Phil_A]

No, I hadn't.

His voice is fairly good, but he sounds permanently on the verge of being out of breath.

Hmm, the performance isn't too bad but the way it's filmed is just odd. It's got the production values of a public access cable show, and kind-of looks like it was filmed on the Voyager set after hours except Voyager finished two years before this so that's unlikely. Couldn't an actor who'd been on a successful TV show for seven years have stumped up for a professional video shoot?

Also it sounds like he's singing "CUSHION GAZE-AHHHH" on the chorus.

[purlieu]

Time and Again. It's enough of a variation on past time travel stories - largely because the way they accidentally wound up involved in the story and effectively had to extricate themselves. Ultimately it wasn't a hugely memorable story, but felt overall more confidently done than some of the bland early TNG episodes. I'm also amused by the fact that this is two episodes in a row where

Spoiler alert

they're accidentally going up against themselves. I'm enjoying the slightly ramshackle feeling of them not quite knowing what they're doing so far.

[close]

It's partially because I've waited a very long time since the end of TNG, and have watched seven series of DS9 in the interim, but my favourite thing about the first three so far has been the space exploration thing. It's really nice just to be off an adventure, not knowing what's around the next corner, even if it's nothing mind-blowing.

[Lemming]

It's partially because I've waited a very long time since the end of TNG, and have watched seven series of DS9 in the interim, but my favourite thing about the first three so far has been the space exploration thing. It's really nice just to be off an adventure, not knowing what's around the next corner, even if it's nothing mind-blowing.

Agreed. From what I remember there's a bit of a blip in the second series where they get stuck in "Kazon Space" (a concept that doesn't make any amount of sense), but after that it's space exploration all the way.

One of the great things about Voyager, which really starts to show in the middle seasons, is that they're prepared to do all kinds of pulpy and off-the-wall stories that the likes of TNG would never handle, and it really brings back the TOS style of exciting space exploration where absolutely anything can happen. There's an episode later on that's entirely about an elevator that goes all the way from the ground up into space, which Tuvok ends up falling out of or something, and there's another featuring an ocean world with no land where gigantic leviathans swirl around underwater cities.

[Mr Trumpet]

Voyager seemed to begin with the idea that you'd have recurring baddies for a while and then move out of their range, into new trouble. So you had the Kazon and the Vidiians. This was a cool idea but they dropped it after a while and didn't pick it up again until much later in the show with the Malon and the Hirogen.

I do wish they'd picked up more crew as they went along, not just Neelix, Seven and the Equinox mob. Would be cool to see the crew growing more diverse (and also a reflection of how it was on real long-distance sea voyages in the age of discovery).

[purlieu]

It all feels a little like it's Farscape's bigger, more serious cousin, which is good to me.

[oy vey]

Time and Again is forgettable by design but there are worse time travel stories in Trek. I'm not enjoying the way they try to portray Kes as some kind of Troi/Guinan hybrid. Her final scene is no Yesterday's Enterprise. Not her fault, just the story being an inconsequential romp to begin with. A watchable in between episode.

[Zetetic]

It all feels a little like it's Farscape's bigger, more serious cousin, which is good to me.

I really like this idea, as an attitude to try putting on at the very least.

[Poobum]

Phage is a really good episode.

Spoiler alert

The Viidians are a great enemy, I like how they were given some sympathy whilst being utterly horrific. Janeway's decision was certainly noble, it's a shame it'll be undermined and contradicted later on. The Viidians would have made a far better recurring foe than the Kazon, but I understand, especially with a certain up coming episode, that they would have turned the show far too close to a horror for the kind of broad audience I assume the show was aiming for. I also loved the call forward of Neelix asking the doctor if he could sing, and the doctors assurances that he wasn't going to kiss him.

[close]

[Mobbd]

Phage is a really good episode.

Spoiler alert

The Viidians are a great enemy, I like how they were given some sympathy whilst being utterly horrific. Janeway's decision was certainly noble, it's a shame it'll be undermined and contradicted later on. The Viidians would have made a far better recurring foe than the Kazon, but I understand, especially with a certain up coming episode, that they would have turned the show far too close to a horror for the kind of broad audience I assume the show was aiming for. I also loved the call forward of Neelix asking the doctor if he could sing, and the doctors assurances that he wasn't going to kiss him.

[close]

Agreed about the Vidiians. They're pretty good. More of them to come.

A lot of people say Voyager improves after Season 3, once they've passed the Nekrit Expanse (an in-world assurance to the viewer that everything would be new and fresh from now on). Maybe it does improve. The early Borg stories (certainly Scorpion) that follow are a high point of sorts. But are any of the later baddie races as good as the Vidiians? The Hirogen? The Malon? Those "Hierarchy" guys? Naaah. Hirogen look pretty cool in their masks but they're ultimately just a cliche hunter species. Vidiians.

EDIT: I posted a pic that I realised was spoilery to anyone doing this watch-along for the first time. Just removed it. Soz.

[Deanjam]

Season 4 onwards are an improvement because to show decides to mosty focus on Seven, The Doctor, and Janeway. All the dull characters are shunted to the back,

Spoiler alert

and Kes is ejected into space unemployment.

[close]

[purlieu]

Phage. Pretty good. The Vidiians were enjoyably complex - antagonists with a sympathetic cause - and Janeway's response to them was fine Star Trek Captain reasoning. Neelix and the Doctor are an enjoyable pairing.

[greenman]

Season 4 onwards are an improvement because to show decides to mosty focus on Seven, The Doctor, and Janeway. All the dull characters are shunted to the back,

Spoiler alert

and Kes is ejected into space unemployment.

[close]

I'd say it tended to become rather more plot focused as well, TNG and DS9 you could get away with episodes that had quite simple plots that were really just showcases for the characters.

[oy vey]

Phage. Pretty good. The Vidiians were enjoyably complex - antagonists with a sympathetic cause - and Janeway's response to them was fine Star Trek Captain reasoning. Neelix and the Doctor are an enjoyable pairing.

Not bad at all. An interesting new species with organ harvesting and body horror in the mix.

Neelix & Kes: We would like to share this journey with you.
Janeway: It'll cost you a lung each.

[Lemming]

The Vidiians are pretty cool. Not every script with them uses them well, but there's at least one very good one I remember coming up later on.

A lot of people online tend to get pissed off at Janeway in this one for being too soft on the organ harvesters, but I don't really see what else she could have done - she's obviously right when she says that she can't kill them to recover the lungs, and it's not like a more violent/forceful response would have helped future victims.