Author Topic: Star Trek - Voyager  (Read 21888 times)

Kelvin

  • The best bits of a pantomime horse
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • With skin the colour of a freshly peeled apple
Re: Star Trek - Voyager
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2020, 02:48:09 PM »
It was often amazes me how opinions on Voyager have turned around in the last twenty years or so.

Surely a big part of this was the direction the films and TV shows took post-Voyager. From the anaemic Enterprise and latter TNG films, to the shallow nostalgia of the Abrams films and the cynical melodrama of the recent series. Voyager has ended up being the last time Star Trek looked and felt like the Star Trek people loved. At the time, it felt like ship-based Trek was in a rut and needed shaking up. Now, in hindsight, it seems like the last time it had it's own identity.

MojoJojo

  • Member
  • **
  • Between a cow college and a MetaLab.
Re: Star Trek - Voyager
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2020, 03:34:54 PM »
I'm glad the writers went for episodic if it's what they were comfortable with. They tried story arcs in Season 2 with Paris-is-going-to-spy-on-the-Kazon and there's-a-defector-on-board, and they were so irredeemably awful and ended up getting in the way of some otherwise decent episodic stuff.

I think Voyager got a bit stuck between episodic and arc based stuff because of the TV market. TNG pioneered the idea of straight to syndication, and was hugely successful with it (partly due to the liberalisation of EU TV markets). By 1995 there were twenty one hour syndicated dramas in production. To be successful in syndication it was believed that a series should be episodic and have basically no continuity, regional broadcasters have the freedom to switch episodes and schedules around as they like.

Voyager was conceived as a replacement for TNG, so syndication. But it was also conceived as a flagship for Paramount's new network, UPN, so wasn't syndication first. The syndication market was also becoming very crowded (inspired by TNGs success), and it was also shrinking in the US due in part to UPN and The WB starting up. So the first season or so definitely had a slightly awkward feeling that it didn't quite know whether to be TNG or DS9.

If I actually watched some I could probably say something interesting instead of waffling on about the mid-nineties TV market.

PlanktonSideburns

  • encoded by an oaf
Re: Star Trek - Voyager
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2020, 03:40:14 PM »
We recently did a full-Voyager rewatch and were astonished by the quality of this episode. One doesn't generally think of Season 1 Voyager as particularly stand-out Trek, but I think this might be the best-written episode of the whole series. I even wondered if it was an unused TNG script repurposed or something, but it's such a context-specific thing for Voyager I can't quite believe this could be the case. It's so tight, the stakes are at precisely the correct level, and every time something occurred to me like "but what about..." it was swiftly and excitingly addressed. 10/10 and nobody ever remembers or talks about it.

Another underrated one for me is Bliss. It's not perfect but the glimpses into how each character imagines their return to the Alpha Quadrant is quite endearing and intelligent (especially Neelix shaking hands with Starfleet Admirals), compared with Endgame which always felt to me like a bit of a fudge.

There's a general collective memory that Voyager improves when Seven arrives and she IS great, but the quality of writing post-Season 3 is a little weaker in my opinion (still love it though, especially the funny EMH eps) and Kes is universally underrated.

On Kes: I really liked Before and After (the one where she's hopping backwards in time) and the idea of a short-lived humanoid species is inherently interesting: it's weird that people say her character doesn't develop when she literally goes from naive hobbit to Q-like cosmic being via her Elogium and various relationships and the development of telepathic powers!

Yea kes is great, and it's a great performance too

They should have ditched someone else instead of her to get 7 of nine in.

Re: Star Trek - Voyager
« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2020, 04:05:54 PM »
Yea kes is great, and it's a great performance too

They should have ditched someone else instead of her to get 7 of nine in.

They were going to; Garrett Wang was facing the axe - he'd wound up the producers through his lackadaisical attitude and his chronic lateness. But then, he was chosen by People Magazine as one of the "50 Most Beautiful People In The World", and they decided they'd better hold on to him. And that's all she wrote for Jennifer Lien.

Re: Star Trek - Voyager
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2020, 04:21:13 PM »
Torres in particular is a really underrated character, the writers gave her so much good shit (Dreadnought, Barge of the Dead, Prophecy, Lineage, a bunch more). Paris is a character I like a lot, too, at least after he gets a near-total personality change around Season 3 or 4.

You could argue she was a rare case of Trek really looking to deconstruct Klingons, compared to say the Cardassians in DS9 there tended to be much less questioning of their basic nature/values.

PlanktonSideburns

  • encoded by an oaf
Re: Star Trek - Voyager
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2020, 04:39:51 PM »
They were going to; Garrett Wang was facing the axe - he'd wound up the producers through his lackadaisical attitude and his chronic lateness. But then, he was chosen by People Magazine as one of the "50 Most Beautiful People In The World", and they decided they'd better hold on to him. And that's all she wrote for Jennifer Lien.

Never found garret that sexy until that episode where some alien siren race are kicking about and he's in some sort of robe with his hair hanging down, then I was all like NOW WE KNOW

would be a shame to lose such a cutie, but his character isn't a patch on kes


PlanktonSideburns

  • encoded by an oaf
Re: Star Trek - Voyager
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2020, 04:42:17 PM »
Yea also torrens is a great king on but also another great character, love how sick of everyone's shit she is. Leadership material

Lemming

  • stevie nicks books about kleptomania
Re: Star Trek - Voyager
« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2020, 04:46:16 PM »
On the podcast, Garrett says that the thing about him being saved from the chop after being declared TV's Sexiest Man is not the whole story, and that he'll reveal the true reasons he was kept on/Lien was dropped when they reach that point in the rewatch.

Mr_Simnock

  • Wake up we're going back to chelmsley wood
Re: Star Trek - Voyager
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2020, 05:12:56 PM »
Chakotay is so funny, even just as a concept. Glorified middle manager. 90% of his screentime is just people coming to him asking for like a shift change or whatever, and him approving it.

Clearly Chackotay is a space Syd to hot sexy mature slightly dominearing mommy next door sex fantasy Janeways space Eddie.


Re: Star Trek - Voyager
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2020, 06:35:57 PM »
On the podcast, Garrett says that the thing about him being saved from the chop after being declared TV's Sexiest Man is not the whole story, and that he'll reveal the true reasons he was kept on/Lien was dropped when they reach that point in the rewatch.

I remember the rumour back then was she had drinking problems, that might've just been malicious gossip though.

Recent news stories about her have been pure desolation though, properly sad stuff. Mental health issues rather than drink-related though

Wonderful Butternut

  • Very Nice Bloke
Re: Star Trek - Voyager
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2020, 06:58:34 PM »
On the podcast, Garrett says that the thing about him being saved from the chop after being declared TV's Sexiest Man is not the whole story, and that he'll reveal the true reasons he was kept on/Lien was dropped when they reach that point in the rewatch.

Wasn't either Berman or Braga doing Jeri Ryan at the time, wanted to get her on the show and had to cut Kes for both screentime and budget reasons to add Seven?

Or does it relate to the... eh... troubles Jennifer Lien has had since quitting acting.

oy vey

  • [sic]
Re: Star Trek - Voyager
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2020, 07:48:38 PM »
Love this thread...

I was pissed when Kes was booted though The Gift was a beautiful send off (just don't bring up Fury). Before and After is great. Nice change of hair style but the whole breaking up with Neelix was abrupt. I felt at the time Neelix or Harry should have gone but at least Wang had a great episode with Timeless. Future Harry was edgy and rather satisfying I must say.

Did Neelix ever have a good episode? He got more bearable I'll give him that. The Doc got more annoying after that episode where he wanted to leave Voyager to become an opera singer. I think Unity was a decent Chakotay episode but it's the only one I can think of. For the rest, they had many a good ep.

On Jeri Ryan shagging a producer it was Braga. He was well hated by the fans at that point for stating he never saw an episode of TOS. Porking Seven was another nail in the coffin.

Re: Star Trek - Voyager
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2020, 07:56:02 PM »
He only dated her after she joined the show though, so had nothing to do with her hiring. I suspect the real reason for Lien's dropping was exactly as the rumour says above, it was gonna be Wang due to a poor attitude, but he was saved by the beautiful people list. It was also the reason he wasn't given the chance to direct on the show despite his claims that it was racism. You know like how Tim Russ & Roxanne Dawson never got a chance to direct Voyager because they weren't white ...

Re: Star Trek - Voyager
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2020, 07:57:14 PM »
As for Lien's troubles I think they only began after she left the show. Everyone on the show says she was shy and introverted, but there are no claims of her being difficult or having issues.

Re: Star Trek - Voyager
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2020, 09:55:38 PM »
Did Neelix ever have a good episode?

"Mortal Coil" is quite thoughtful. "Jetrel" is OK. Otherwise, it's Quark's castoff waistcoats, Naomi Wildman and Mr. Vulcan stamping on a human face, forever.

Re: Star Trek - Voyager
« Reply #45 on: October 07, 2020, 12:22:55 AM »
At the time, Voyager was always my least favourite of all the Treks. I didn't like Janeway's voice - it really, really irritated me. I didn't like Kes, Neelix, Chakotay, Torres, Tom fuckin' Paris, or bland Harry Kim. But Tuvok was OK, and the doctor was, for me, the breakout character. When Seven joined the series the whole thing improved, and it wasn't just because of the outfits. Oh no.

Later, though, I began to appreciate it more and now it's in second place, below DS9. Super.

I don't know much about "classic" film stars, but check out Katherine Hepburn in the wonderfully overacted 1968 British film "The Lion in Winter" which I saw about a year ago:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lion_in_Winter_(1968_film)

Her mannerisms and way of talking are completely ripped off by Mulgrew's captain. It's so obvious. Just a fun fact.

Wonderful Butternut

  • Very Nice Bloke
Re: Star Trek - Voyager
« Reply #46 on: October 07, 2020, 09:11:09 AM »

Re: Star Trek - Voyager
« Reply #47 on: October 07, 2020, 09:23:48 AM »
I enjoyed the first three Seasons quite a bit at the time but, disgrace to straight teenage boys everywhere that I was, I lost interest when Seven Of Nine was added. Seemed to me to become a tackier, dumber show all ways round at that point though.

Blumf

  • Not long now
    • IGNORE ME!!!
Re: Star Trek - Voyager
« Reply #48 on: October 07, 2020, 10:16:04 AM »
I enjoyed the first three Seasons quite a bit at the time but, disgrace to straight teenage boys everywhere that I was, I lost interest when Seven Of Nine was added. Seemed to me to become a tackier, dumber show all ways round at that point though.

That's a real shame as, even though she was brought in for all the wrong reasons[1], Jeri Ryan and the writers did some great work with the character.

Then ST:Picard went and pissed all over it.
 1. BANGERS!

Wonderful Butternut

  • Very Nice Bloke
Re: Star Trek - Voyager
« Reply #49 on: October 07, 2020, 10:28:00 AM »
That's a real shame as, even though she was brought in for all the wrong reasons[1]
 1. BANGERS!

To completely shatter the teenage illusion and make it worse, she's at least 30% padding in Voyager.

Look at her in anything else other than Voyager. They're normal rather than "ow! Back pain!"

Blumf

  • Not long now
    • IGNORE ME!!!
Re: Star Trek - Voyager
« Reply #50 on: October 07, 2020, 11:16:57 AM »
They're normal rather than "ow! Back pain!"

Yeah, although, apparently she did have a disc replaced:
https://twitter.com/jerilryan/status/1202632142477348864?lang=en

Doubt it's bangers related.

Re: Star Trek - Voyager
« Reply #51 on: October 07, 2020, 11:28:17 AM »
That's a real shame as, even though she was brought in for all the wrong reasons[1], Jeri Ryan and the writers did some great work with the character.

Then ST:Picard went and pissed all over it.
 1. BANGERS!

No no. She is a kick ass suicidal murderer now. You must be a sexist if you don't think that is good character development.

Re: Star Trek - Voyager
« Reply #52 on: October 07, 2020, 11:38:32 AM »
I quite liked Voyager at the time, not really revisited it much. There were a couple of characters that irritated the kex off me (ie Neelix), but Tuvak was always good value, as was the Doctor and it was nice when Barclay turned up for a guest spot.

Plus - attractive ladies, always a boon back when I was a young 'un.

However, thinking of it now, there's not much about the show I remember beyond the 'Year in Hell' two parter, the one where Paris and the Cap end up turning into weird fish creatures and the finale.

Re: Star Trek - Voyager
« Reply #53 on: October 07, 2020, 11:56:19 AM »
That's a real shame as, even though she was brought in for all the wrong reasons[1], Jeri Ryan and the writers did some great work with the character.

Then ST:Picard went and pissed all over it.
 1. BANGERS!

Yeah, one of these days I'll give the later years a proper shot. Think I was just moving out of a Star Trek phase after being bored by Insurrection, possibly had less easy access to watching it or something around this time as well.

Cloud

  • This is probably a mistake
Re: Star Trek - Voyager
« Reply #54 on: October 07, 2020, 12:10:35 PM »
That's a real shame as, even though she was brought in for all the wrong reasons[1], Jeri Ryan and the writers did some great work with the character.

Then ST:Picard went and pissed all over it.
 1. BANGERS!


Gah, I'd just nicely put her character assassination out of my mind.

PlanktonSideburns

  • encoded by an oaf
Re: Star Trek - Voyager
« Reply #55 on: October 07, 2020, 09:21:09 PM »
That's a real shame as, even though she was brought in for all the wrong reasons[1], Jeri Ryan and the writers did some great work with the character.

Then ST:Picard went and pissed all over it.
 1. BANGERS!

yea she does haughty prescision really amazing, but with undercurrents. would have loved a spinoff where her and the doctor start a private detective agency

beanheadmcginty

  • I'm gonna ring-rang-a-dong for a holiday
Re: Star Trek - Voyager
« Reply #56 on: October 08, 2020, 12:39:50 AM »
Always loved Star Trek. Lucky enough to have seen it as a kid in the correct order due to TOS being repeated when I was a nipper and then TNG starting it's original run. But when Voyager started my brain somehow took against it. I hated Mulgrew's voice, that Klingon woman wasn't Klingon enough and Neelix appeared to be the worst conceived Dan Aykroyd character ever. Only started watching it again when Seven of Nine appeared, which happily coincided with my peak wanking era. Still couldn't tell you a single thing that happened in any episode as I would turn it over immediately after completion of the task in hand. I might try watching it again. I'll probably be more circumspect about the annoying characters now I've mellowed but I definitely won't be able to maintain the same ruthlessly pursued wanking schedule.

PlanktonSideburns

  • encoded by an oaf
Re: Star Trek - Voyager
« Reply #57 on: October 08, 2020, 12:45:50 AM »
suspect this is a classic shit argument,

but i like neelix's character, because he is annoying. like thats his character. a berk

theres gonna be berks in space guys comeon

Nobody Soup

  • ephedrine and orange juice... and also ket
Re: Star Trek - Voyager
« Reply #58 on: October 08, 2020, 02:08:01 AM »
suspect this is a classic shit argument,

but i like neelix's character, because he is annoying. like thats his character. a berk

theres gonna be berks in space guys comeon

No. Neelix was kind of OK, his relationship with tuvoc was fun too, if only because tuvoc often verbalised what the fans thought about him (i.e. He was a berk).

Always felt kinda like he was gaslighting kes into having a relationship though, which was a lot less cute than "lol I put custard on a pizza.".

Re: Star Trek - Voyager
« Reply #59 on: October 08, 2020, 01:46:11 PM »
Did Neelix ever have a good episode?

Does Tuvix count?

Tags: