Star Trek - Voyager

[PlanktonSideburns]

Your harry kim is in another cave system

[Nobody Soup]

Love this thread...

I was pissed when Kes was booted though The Gift was a beautiful send off (just don't bring up Fury). Before and After is great. Nice change of hair style but the whole breaking up with Neelix was abrupt. I felt at the time Neelix or Harry should have gone but at least Wang had a great episode with Timeless. Future Harry was edgy and rather satisfying I must say.

Did Neelix ever have a good episode? He got more bearable I'll give him that. The Doc got more annoying after that episode where he wanted to leave Voyager to become an opera singer. I think Unity was a decent Chakotay episode but it's the only one I can think of. For the rest, they had many a good ep.

Waking moments is a good chakotay episode.

[Mobbd]

Waking moments is a good chakotay episode.

You're right as well. Seeing the moon and tapping the back of the hand. Good, fun stuff AND grounded in character. Good call.

[Mobbd]

I like all those too!

Let's get married! I will dress as Quark. Not just at the wedding. Every day until one of us dies. You in?

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Look, it's a simple yes or no question.

Except for Profit and Lace, which I don't really hate, it's just another standard-issue boring Ferengi episode. I agree that most of the notoriously bad episodes are actually entertaining (I also love Sub Rosa and Catspaw),

To be clear, I don't enjoy Threshold etc because they're bad. I genuinely like them. Funnily though, you've alighted on two episodes I do sort of enjoy for their badness. I rarely watch Sub Rosa but it's certainly got Best of the Worst appeal. At least it's not boring.

but I was thinking more of stuff like latter-era TNG, especially Season 7. I ended up cutting my last rewatch short midway through the last season. Phantasms, Man of the People, Dark Page, Masks, Eye of the Beholder, Aquiel, all really dull IMO. Even the ones with good ideas like Schisms are somehow executed in a kind of boring, plodding way. I tend to write off most of the last two seasons of DS9 as well, mostly because it gets so convoluted and melodramatic that I stop caring about what's happening.

I like Schisms! You've certainly named some non-favourites there though. I'd still watch them but they're below the equator of TNG goodness.

[Mobbd]

What's up with Sacred Ground? Janeway on an ayahuasca trip turns her back on science. Until the next episode. Spock's Brain is lovely though.

I think it's an aesthetic aversion more than the story. There's just something so dull about all those cave systems and candles. And the 'but this was the test' is so naff.

Fun story: I was on a date once and it came up that I like Star Trek (what was I thinking?). The guy said his sister had written an episode of Voyager. For some reason, I said, "It wasn't Sacred Ground was it?" Well, of course it was. It was only a 1/172 chance or something.

I looked into it and she did write the script but was lumped with a'story by' credit because they diddled with the script beyond a certain point or something.

[JamesTC]

Spock's Brain is fun in a B-Movie sort of way. Threshold can't really have the same enjoyment as they should really no better by that point when they are taking things way too far but it is still okay until the final transformation. After the final transformation begins and Paris steals Janeway to turn into a salamander it is just batshit crazy so I guess I should credit the bravery.

I used to find Profit and Lace fun but on my recent rewatch I really hated how it pushed Quark's character into a deeply disturbing direction. He is a money grubbing arse but he has a heart to him that puts him above most Ferengi (aside from his brother and nephew). To see him sexually pressure and blackmail a well-loved waitress at his bar is out of order and colours anything he does before and after.

[oy vey]

Waking moments is a good chakotay episode.

You're right as well. Seeing the moon and tapping the back of the hand. Good, fun stuff AND grounded in character. Good call.

The lucid dreaming one, yes. I was thinking maybe Shattered as well, though it's more Janeway but I enjoyed maquis-Chakotay.

I think it's an aesthetic aversion more than the story. There's just something so dull about all those cave systems and candles. And the 'but this was the test' is so naff.

Fun story: I was on a date once and it came up that I like Star Trek (what was I thinking?). The guy said his sister had written an episode of Voyager. For some reason, I said, "It wasn't Sacred Ground was it?" Well, of course it was. It was only a 1/172 chance or something.

I looked into it and she did write the script but was lumped with a'story by' credit because they diddled with the script beyond a certain point or something.

Nice anecdote. I assume she didn't write that naff Doc medic-babble explanation. Chakotay was out of character and the lighting, costumes, etc. sucked yes, but I enjoyed Janeway tripping balls.

[Mobbd]

I was thinking maybe Shattered as well, though it's more Janeway but I enjoyed maquis-Chakotay.

That one's watchable but there's something weird about it. It's not literally a clipshow but bringing back all of that old stuff felt a bit clip show-adjacent, doesn't it? And the thing about time being shattered feels similar to that Twisted episode. Twisted is better to my mind and it has that touching moment where Tovok places his hand on Janeway's shoulder as the singularity is about to engulf them.

Nice anecdote. I assume she didn't write that naff Doc medic-babble explanation. Chakotay was out of character and the lighting, costumes, etc. sucked yes, but I enjoyed Janeway tripping balls.

Haha. She might have done, I'm not sure. Something nobody notices about the episode: one of those three monks in Janeway's trial is George Costanza's mum.

[Mobbd]

General point about not liking CBS Trek specifically in relation to Voyager:

All through Voyager, there was an implicit promise that we'd return to the long-established (through TOS/TNG) and now deeply fleshed-out (through DS9) Alpha Quantrant world we knew and loved. That was the direction of travel. Literally!

They'd tease us with little glimpses of Alpha Quadrant life via the Pathfinder project and Message in a Bottle and that Species 82517 recreation of the Academy, etc. I think a lot of fans took those moments as reminders that the world we really loved was still there and therefore as a sort of acknowledgement that the Star Trek Industrial Complex was listening: that they knew we were cool with Voyager up to a point but also that that we really wanted to get back to "the real story" of humanity's future. I think we all assumed we'd join back up with that story sooner or later, all the richer for having returned from our world-building journey through the Delta Quadrant like Sir Walter Raleigh with a big bag of spuds slung over one shoulder.

I think we all assumed there would be a fifth Trek series set after Voyager 's return and somewhere relatively close to Earth and Bajor, with Klingons and Vulcans around. So when that fifth series turned out to be Enterprise, a PREQUAL, it felt like a bit of a letdown. And that's why we're all so mad now: we still, after hundreds of hours of disappointing pseudo-Trek on big and small screens, we're still not back where we want to be. It's not just that we're not there, it's that it was sort-of promised by Voyager. Do you know what I mean?

[Wentworth Smith]

I do and it amazes me that they haven't set a series in that universe... Picard is meant to be but is so all over the place and badly written as to be nonsense. Just think of the universe they have to play with and how badly it is wasted:

20 years after the Dominion war, whats happening with them and the wormhole? Will Sisko ever return? How are the Bajorans doing as part of the Fed?

Romulan homeworld destroyed. There is so much you could do with that but Picard just had some refugees... which makes no sense anyway as there are other Romulan worlds.

How are those the others who took part in the Dominion war faring? The Cardassians were wrecked, the Klingons were presumably lording it about as one of the few stable powers left.

Loads of potential, all of it wasted.

[Phil_A]

General point about not liking CBS Trek specifically in relation to Voyager:

All through Voyager, there was an implicit promise that we'd return to the long-established (through TOS/TNG) and now deeply fleshed-out (through DS9) Alpha Quantrant world we knew and loved. That was the direction of travel. Literally!

They'd tease us with little glimpses of Alpha Quadrant life via the Pathfinder project and Message in a Bottle and that Species 82517 recreation of the Academy, etc. I think a lot of fans took those moments as reminders that the world we really loved was still there and therefore as a sort of acknowledgement that the Star Trek Industrial Complex was listening: that they knew we were cool with Voyager up to a point but also that that we really wanted to get back to "the real story" of humanity's future. I think we all assumed we'd join back up with that story sooner or later, all the richer for having returned from our world-building journey through the Delta Quadrant like Sir Walter Raleigh with a big bag of spuds slung over one shoulder.

I think we all assumed there would be a fifth Trek series set after Voyager 's return and somewhere relatively close to Earth and Bajor, with Klingons and Vulcans around. So when that fifth series turned out to be Enterprise, a PREQUAL, it felt like a bit of a letdown. And that's why we're all so mad now: we still, after hundreds of hours of disappointing pseudo-Trek on big and small screens, we're still not back where we want to be. It's not just that we're not there, it's that it was sort-of promised by Voyager. Do you know what I mean?

Ha. I remember one of the fan predictions at the time was Voyager would get home by the end of the penultimate season, and the final season would be the crew returning home and adjusting to normal life again. In retrospect that was never gonna happen.

[Wonderful Butternut]

The early get home ticket in Voyager was Suspiria, the second Caretaker lifeform. Basically, if the concept of Voyager being stranded in the Delta Quadrant wasn't washing with fans or the head honchos, they'd use her to teleport the ship back home and have TNG 2.0 for the remainder of the series.

So, once they felt the Delta Q thing was working, they had the episode where they meet Suspiria and she tries to kill them to basically resolve that. After that episode, they were always going to remain in the Delta Quadrant until the series finale.

[greenman]

They did also of course always have the Borg as a fall back option to bring Voyage back to more established territory which they ended up taking.

[Malcy]

After that episode, they were always going to remain in the Delta Quadrant until the series finale.

The original plan was to have them get home at the end of S6 and then have an Alpha/Beta Quadrant set 7th. Wasn't just a fan theory.

[Cloud]

I'd have liked to see an Alpha Quadrant season.

I always thought Voyager was quite an interesting concept in that the whole premise of Star Trek has been to get out there exploring strange new worlds, but Voyager was all about wanting to go home.   It's perfectly understandable of course.  The desire to explore but still be in touch with where you started.

[oy vey]

Yeah, an alpha arc or a twist where they are required by starfleet to stay in the delta quadrant, to keep an eye on the borg or fight 8472 or some shit. I really feel they pissed away 8472 as a decent adversary unique to Voyager but I suppose they painted themselves into a corner on cgi budgets.

[JamesTC]

The original plan was to have them get home at the end of S6 and then have an Alpha/Beta Quadrant set 7th. Wasn't just a fan theory.

Not heard that before. That alongside the original idea to start Enterprise on earth for half a season were interesting ideas which would have shaken things up temporarily but sadly they were network shows and the network wanted episodic TNG style stories that could interchange in syndication.

The funny thing is I'd now love Trek to just be episodic TNG style stories that could interchange.

[Mobbd]

The early get home ticket in Voyager was Suspiria, the second Caretaker lifeform.

Cold Fire. That was a pretty sweet ep. Felt like a little horror movie.

[JamesTC]

They are currently crowdfunding for a Voyager documentary. They've already smashed their initial goals.

The DS9 doc did really well and got great reviews. Personally I thought it was a bit rubbish, but they also made For the Love of Spock, Chaos on the Bridge and The Captains which were all great.

[Fambo Number Mive]

Good list. I would add Scorpion. My personal favourite, most rewatches, though I admit there are stronger episodes. It just plays like a movie for me. Great new villain (later squandered). The Gift makes it a good triple binge.

It's season 3's Unity kicks off the series for me. First season is thin on quality and 2 is uneven. The pilot is good though.

Anyone listening to The Delta Flyers podcast? Garret Wang and Rob McNeill go through episodes. On season 2 at the moment.

Have started listening to this podcast, absolutely love it. I really like it when actors clearly enjoy the show they starred in and have a keen interest in talking about it. Be interesting to know how many Trek actors were big fans before starring in the show.

Do you think that the crew of Voyager eat in Neelix's restaurant because they like the food(not sure if they have to ration how many times they use the replicator) or just to be nice to Neelix? Maybe it depends on the character. I suppose it's a place to meet others rather than use the replicator in their room.

[Blumf]

Do you think that the crew of Voyager eat in Neelix's restaurant because they like the food(not sure if they have to ration how many times they use the replicator) or just to be nice to Neelix?

Replicator use is rationed. Plus fresh cooked food is generally considered better than the replicated thing.

[Mobbd]

Do you think that the crew of Voyager eat in Neelix's restaurant because they like the food(not sure if they have to ration how many times they use the replicator) or just to be nice to Neelix?

Not sure why, but this made me laugh. I love the idea of these Starfleets feeling obliged to be nice to Neelix.

[Fambo Number Mive]

I think Janeway, Paris and Kim would feel keen to be nice to Neelix if there was a risk of offending him. Not sure about any of the others.

[petril]

I think it's more he's casually and cheerfully manage to claim most of the kit and space before anyone else could, in that kinda cheerfully twee sociopathic way. rather than go through a load of rigmarole about cooking and eating rules, they just let him get on with it since everyone's got a scran when they need and there's no rucks yet. bet the senior staff called a meeting just to spend an hour slagging him off in private

[Malcy]

The Documentary has raised over $1m now and might have some new stuff filmed with the actors that requires negotiations with CBS. New Voyager scenes?

https://trekmovie.com/2021/03/28/exclusive-to-the-journey-producer-hints-at-1m-surprise-says-doc-covers-voyager-controversies/

[Mobbd]

The Documentary has raised over $1m now and might have some new stuff filmed with the actors that requires negotiations with CBS. New Voyager scenes?

https://trekmovie.com/2021/03/28/exclusive-to-the-journey-producer-hints-at-1m-surprise-says-doc-covers-voyager-controversies/

Wow, cool. If new scenes, it would surely have to be scenes set "now" (i.e. 20 years or whatever it is after we last saw the Voyager crew - where would that place them, given the flash-forward element of Endgame?) given that everyone has aged and they probably can't dig out the old sets. My guess: some sort of table read. That would have a similar sort of feel to the DS9 writers room segments.

The DS9 documentary really was something, wasn't it? Their other ones like For the Love of Spock are fine and all but were presumably made with a more general audience in mind; the DS9 one was a real deep cut, very knowledgeable and very loving, and it was so nice to luxuriate in DS9 in this way. I'd half-forgotten about those writers room segments but they were the jewel in the crown of the documentary and really quite spesh in their own right. The efforts they went to to interview everyone was worthy of any psycho fan; and I now feel very lucky that they got Rene Auberjonois and Aron Eisenberg.

[dr_christian_troy]

I also love that the actor who plays Gowron is featured in the documentary, but just does "the stare" and says nothing.

[Lemming]

New scenes set 20 years later sounds amazing - but then I remembered that thanks to Star Trek: Picard, Icheb canonically died by having his eyeballs torn out by an organ harvesting ring, and Seven is canonically a mercenary who goes around vapourising people.

At least things might be looking up for Harry!

[Blumf]

New scenes set 20 years later sounds amazing - but then I remembered that thanks to Star Trek: Picard, Icheb canonically died by having his eyeballs torn out

Could just have him there with an eyepatch, "I got better"

[dr_christian_troy]

Could just have him there with an eyepatch, "I got better"

I believe the decision to violently kill Icheb was directly in relation to the actor being offensively opinionated on social media. There's been a few questions about how this could have been handled but the general consensus is that the violence in his death scene was extremely pointed and intentional.