Is the PHWOAARR thread we have a bit rum?

[Captain Z]

Contrary to popular belief, it is (well, Covid-aside) still possible to just meet or start talking to someone in real life. I have never used apps/online but FWIW my dating experiences around 5 years ago were identical to those 10-15 years prior.

[Lisa Jesusandmarychain]

Not true in my experience.

Nor mine.
Then again, I *am* a rapist !! :-D

[flotemysost]

Great posts there TrenterPercenter.

In my experience of online/app dating, it can be a bit ruthless, but I think most people learn to develop a low tolerance for bullshit quite early on. If a conversation isn't going in a direction I'm comfortable with or it just doesn't seem like I'm on the same page as the other person, I'll nip it in the bud to avoid wasting either of our time. As for the height thing, I'm in the 5'2" region so I'm genuinely not arsed if a guy's on the dinky side. I do know some similarly petite girls who are weirdly picky about it though, it's almost like they see it as a status symbol to be with a taller guy, in the same way they might want to be seen dating someone with a decent job or a nice car or whatever, which I don't understand.

The only somewhat unpleasant experience I'd had was a guy who tried to persuade me to meet the night before we'd arranged to go on a date (I was out already with friends so I wasn't exactly going to ditch them for some random when I was meant to be seeing him the next day anyway), then he didn't show up or text the following night when we had arranged to meet. He texted a couple of days later with an excuse which, if true, would have been completely reasonable, but it felt a bit suspect. We made vague plans to meet at some point in the future, but this was just before Christmas so any plans fell by the wayside, the conversation sort of petered out naturally, and I assumed neither of us were that bothered. Then a few days after Christmas, I got a text along the lines of "Well you've clearly met someone else as I've heard nothing from you, I've obviously dodged a bullet, you're just a rude bitch like all the other girls" etc. Blocked him on WhatsApp only to receive a similar message from him seconds later on Tinder (I hadn't un-matched him, but obviously did after that).

I've ghosted and have been ghosted, which is admittedly a bit shit. Although when I've been the ghoster, I always seem to awkwardly run into them in real life a while after, despite having moved to a different area (this has happened to me with at least two different guys), which serves me right really.

Edit: sorry, don't want to turn this into another 'weird internet dating' thread

[TrenterPercenter]

Edit: sorry, don't want to turn this into another 'weird internet dating' thread

Not at all it interesting hearing about your experiences.  What a horrid thing to do to someone, why do these people men think it is ok to bully and be rude to women - despite my often rational approach to these things (trying to humanise the abuser in some sense) it is concerning that these men feel they can do such things and get away with it.  It's not normal and speaks to a soceity that seems to permit it.

Hmmm ghosting (which i'm assuming is just ignoring), you can see why this causes problems - reminds me of one of the many tragic stories of my romantic life growing up, when I started getting on really well with this girl from college and was informed by her friend that she really liked me, so i asked her out on date and we organised something for the following week.  I remember I worked two night shifts (which was an absolute nightmare with college at the time) to get some money together so i could actually do a proper date meal thing for a change (and feel all grown up) but when I messaged her the day before she just "ghosted" me. I've still no idea why, she pretty much ignored me a throughout the end of the term (which I suppose was convenient because everyone went off to do there various things then).  It never occurred to me to then be nasty to her about it though, who knows, my thoughts oscillated naturally between thinking there was just something wrong with me (which with my damage and childhood trauma is all about essentially being impoverished scum that could never provide a decent future for any women with any sense) and that something really bad happened to her, maybe someone died, maybe an old flame got back intouch and she realised she wanted to give it a go.  It would have been nice to have some communication but i guess with hindsight now it's just one of those things.  It did rock me for a little bit though (hmmm and interesting writing this now still has a bit of an impact on me - im sure she never intended it too though).

Anyway, perhaps it is important to be clear to people and just say "i'm not into you" which, though seemingly harsh, is much more honest way of dealing with people.  I think in a way whilst you might not be interested in them you are recognising their humanity in being straight with them.  I think after that point if they are rude still then you can atleast securely wash your mind of them as you (and i think this is especially important for women to impress on themselves as this is massively part of the sexism cast upon them) are not available for men just because they ask, women don't owe men anything more than the decency in interactions that anyone should do whilst going through life.

So this actually talks to the broader issue here, this is about how we interact and communicate, if a thread objectifying people is rum and makes people feel uncomfortable then we should get rid of it, not because of any philosophical calculation but just simply because why would we want people to feel uncomfortable? (which I actually think this thread has proved CAB is actually much better than a lot of places on the internet in having the discussion about it - fair play OP!).  Approaching these things from the often confected culture issue view propelled by various grifters in the media seems to want to distract us from this (of course i not suggesting we should not discuss as it's interesting).  Everyone, man or women just wants to feel, safe, secure and valued.  I mean i can't tell you the frustration of having some of my male friends (Who should know better considering some of the experiences we've been through) arguing the toss with me about Jordan fucking Peterson - honestly I had one lad arguing with me about the apparently "made up" female "pay gap" and regurgitated some apparently killer line Peterson said about it being <kermit voice> "a multivariate analysis", something this person knows absolutely nothing about, the second I reminded him that I actually do "mutlivariate analyses" in my job and that i can happily show him why this was absolute sophistry on Petersons part he wouldn't engage with me further about it (yeah so we'll just leave that there mate, you regurgitating made up science about things you don't understand because you want to have a go at wimmin - ok not weird at all).  This is not a rational mindset for these people, they are just echoing their emotional pain and insecurities and some man in a suit with the visage of "science" makes misogyny acceptable somehow (that is all there is too it).  It is difficult but these men are tragic emotional wrecks desperately seeking some respite from their self loathing by projecting outwards.

What I do find enraging and baffling for these men is how on earth are they comfortable with people like Peterson standing on a stage and slagging off women? These are our mothers, sisters, daughters, these are people that any man worth his salt by historic standards (and yes this stereotype does feed into a sexism but perhaps sometimes we can forgo just this once for the greater good) should be defending and they are allowing this two-bit grifter c**t to stand there and denigrate them.  I mean it is just an anathema to me and everything I think is important about us and our humanity.

This is why i just think yes we need to debate these people, but on our terms, this isn't debatable about whether we treat women with respect and people should have no truck with trying to defend this.  It is intuitive to any reasonable person and we should be confident in this (this is something we absolutely should be proud of and own we don't need money or status for our humanity or community) and throw it back at them, then yeah fine we can go on to pick apart their bullshit sophistry.

Sorry kind of went off on a Peterson tangent there but i may as well leave it in now.

[Cuellar]

parklife

[TrenterPercenter]

parklife

love this place xx

[Shit Good Nose]

why do these people men think it is ok to bully and be rude to women

I'm sorry, but it is NOT exclusively men.  I'll grant you that it's a far greater percentage of men, but women are more than capable of being just as cuntish.  I should know, I've experienced it myself one more than one occasion, and one of those experiences drove me to a near breakdown. 

There are, similarly, plenty of examples of man-hating women "slagging off" men with broadbrush strokes (some of it goes on here) although, again, I acknowledge that there's less of it.  But just because there's less of it, it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen nor that it is okay.

[TrenterPercenter]

I'm sorry, but it is NOT exclusively men.  I'll grant you that it's a far greater percentage of men, but women are more than capable of being just as cuntish.  I should know, I've experienced it myself one more than one occasion, and one of those experiences drove me to a near breakdown. 

There are, similarly, plenty of examples of man-hating women "slagging off" men with broadbrush strokes (some of it goes on here) although, again, I acknowledge that there's less of it.  But just because there's less of it, it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen nor that it is okay.

Yep fair point.  We are all human in the end.

Though I was specifically responding to flotemysost and her situation with a particular man.

[Shit Good Nose]

Though I was specifically responding to flotemysost and her situation with a particular man.

Fair dos - when you replaced "people" with "men" and said "these" I just assumed you'd taken the point and generalised it, is all.

But, in general terms, I stand by my point.  I don't think generalised undeserved man-hating (and when I say that, what I actually mean is whatever the equivalent of misogyny is technically called) gets challenged anywhere near enough.  We don't fight racism with racism do we(*).

(* - note, ripping on white tory gammons is not only absolutely allowed, it should be encouraged)

[Better Midlands]

when I say that, what I actually mean is whatever the (female) equivalent of misogyny is

Misandry.

[TrenterPercenter]

Fair dos - when you replaced "people" with "men" and said "these" I just assumed you'd taken the point and generalised it, is all.

But, in general terms, I stand by my point.  I don't think generalised undeserved man-hating (and when I say that, what I actually mean is whatever the equivalent of misogyny is) gets challenged anywhere near enough.  We don't fight racism with racism do we(*).

(* - note, ripping on white tory gammons is not only absolutely allowed, it should be encouraged)

Yes I agree, I am still saying we need to recognise that men are emotional individuals themselves and the vast majority are victim to the patriachy not providers of it.  It is getting them to realise this that is the problem.

Also yes have you noticed all the white tory gammons in the media, whether male or female all have a particularly shit view on women.  Misogyny, just like racism is a tool of oppression used by powerful people.  Men hating women, or white people being racist to other humans is a tactic of diverting attention away from them and the frankly ridiculous notion that these "elites" get to run everything and treat the world and people in it like their own personal theme park.

[Shit Good Nose]

Misandry.

Thank you.

Yes I agree, I am still saying we need to recognise that men are emotional individuals themselves and the vast majority are victim to the patriachy not providers of it.  It is getting them to realise this that is the problem.

Also yes have you noticed all the white tory gammons in the media, whether male or female all have a particularly shit view on women.  Misogyny, just like racism is a tool of oppression used by powerful people.  Men hating women, or white people being racist to other humans is a tactic of diverting attention away from them and the frankly ridiculous notion that these "elites" get to run everything and treat the world and people in it like their own personal theme park.

Tory gammons and their thinking is where you can generalise.  They have a particularly shit view on the great unwashed public - the poorer, browner and further away from London they (the public) are, the worse they are.

[TrenterPercenter]

Misandry is and can be equally relavent to what i'm saying about things being a tool of oppression.

[Blue Jam]

I had a bad experience back when I posted on another forum where I would sometimes chat to people over email. One guy seemed really nice at first but it became clear he wanted to be more than friends when he started ranting about how I was so much nicer than his bitch of an ex. I sensed he was a bit of a Nice Guy* so I blocked his email address. I had a feeling he wouldn't take it well and indeed he responded with a disturbing smear campaign on the forum, posting about how I was a frigid bitch who led him on and replying to all my posts with angry messages about how I "needed to have my back doors smashed in" and other creepy stuff. I left the forum and lurking six months later I saw he was still at it, plus he was now attacking several other women on there. It turned out he'd tried the same "Oh I'm a poor heartbroken divorcee, if only I could meet a nice girl like you" act on pretty much every woman on that forum.

Just before I quit he posted "I want- no, I DEMAND an explanation for you blocking me". Just to try and get him off my back I told him he'd been creeping me out and he replied "Oh, so you're oversensitive and only give people one chance in life?". I couldn't win and just quit the forum at that point.

So yes, ghosting someone is a weird one. If someone ghosts you, the only explanations are: 1. They are dead or otherwise unable to respond, or 2. They're just not that into you. If you ghost someone they may feel entitled to an explanation, or it may seem like the decent thing to give one, but what do you tell them, and what would they do with the information? No explanation is good enough for some people, they'll argue that you're being unfair, that they deserve another chance, that you're being too picky and shallow etc. It's just less of a headache to Block And Move On sometimes.

Also ghosting is often the sensible thing to do if someone is being stalkerish or you sense that you might be in danger or you might get sent abusive messages. It's simple self-preservation at times.

^{*Blue Jam Mentions The Nice Guys}

[Blue Jam]

Re: the height thing: Personally I have never gone for tall guys and I don't see what's supposed to be so attractive about height. Tall men often have bad posture, they can slouch or look a bit ungainly. I find shorter men tend to walk tall and carry themselves a bit better, they look a bit more elegant and I just really like the compact-but-not-stocky build. Being about the same height as your partner has physical advantages too ;)

I guess there are some women who want to feel "protected" and some men who want a petite woman so they can feel "protective" but personally I've always found that a bit creepy.

How a man carries himself is the most important thing. It doesn't matter if you're not tall, you can still walk tall.

[TrenterPercenter]

Oh here we go with the NICE GUYS AGAIN.......just kidding : )

Yeah i see your point completely but there is a bit of assumption there that each person will be man-baby (or woman-baby) about it.  I'm saying you say it once and then move on and i'm saying it primarily for the person saying it as it just doesn't feel right suddenly ignoring somone.

It also isn't as simple as just saying someone ghosting you means "x" and this feeds back into my points about the expectation of male instigators and the princess that needs to be "won" syndrome/playing hard to get/if you really cared you would persist.

There is no escaping these things they are baked into culture and progressed by some women (And sadly that is all it takes).

[chveik]

Also ghosting is often the sensible thing to do if someone is being stalkerish or you sense that you might be in danger or you might get sent abusive messages. It's simple self-preservation at times.

unless you're in the above situation (which I appreciate that it can happen often, especially for women), ghosting is an horrible thing to do to someone, and it's far more hurtful in the long term than saying to them you're not interested. it's just a very careless way to treat people.

[Shit Good Nose]

Re: the height thing: Personally I have never gone for tall guys and I don't see what's supposed to be so attractive about height. Tall men often have bad posture, they can slouch or look a bit ungainly. I find shorter men tend to walk tall and carry themselves a bit better, they look a bit more elegant and I just really like the compact-but-not-stocky build. Being about the same height as your partner has physical advantages too ;)

I guess there are some women who want to feel "protected" and some men who want a petite woman so they can feel "protective" but personally I've always found that a bit creepy and weird.

How a man carries himself is the most important thing. It doesn't matter if you're not tall, you can still walk tall.

(posts pic of Robert Wadlow) PHWOOOOOOAAAAARRRRR!!!!!!!!!


I am a short man - 5' 5-and-a-bit" - but don't have a complex about it, in fact I've always been very self-deprecating about it.  No doubt it has put women off me in the past, but I've had girlfriends and am now married, so whatevs.

The only time it does nause me off is when I - a grown adult man - have to ask someone to get something from the top shelf or the back of the freezer in a supermarket (most embarrassing one was when the only other person around was a schoolboy in his school uniform and I had to ask him to pass me the last box of muesli on the top shelf.  He couldn't have been more than 13).  But that's more of a practical and logistical annoyance than anything else.

[Sebastian Cobb]

Re: the height thing: Personally I have never gone for tall guys and I don't see what's supposed to be so attractive about height. Tall men often have bad posture, they can slouch or look a bit ungainly. I find shorter men tend to walk tall and carry themselves a bit better, they look a bit more elegant and I just really like the compact-but-not-stocky build. Being about the same height as your partner has physical advantages too ;)

I guess there are some women who want to feel "protected" and some men who want a petite woman so they can feel "protective" but personally I've always found that a bit creepy.

How a man carries himself is the most important thing. It doesn't matter if you're not tall, you can still walk tall.

I guess the contrast is that a short (or even medium-sized bloke) with a chip on their shoulder about it is going to be quite unattractive in a non-physical way. Someone I was mates with used to get twitchy because whilst he was marginally taller than his girlfriend, she was taller than him in heels. I just thought 'get over yourself you melt'.

[Blue Jam]

Please be aware that I'm not just talking about men there, that's why I said "people". Women can take rejection really badly too, and they can be violent and stalkerish.

If there is a gender difference, I think men are conditioned to externalise things while women are conditioned to internalise them. Men seem more inclined to protest that women are too picky, and to come out with things like "What's he got that I haven't?" while women are more inclined to think they're not thin enough, not pretty enough etc.

That was my experience as an undergrad anyway. I was never one of the popular girls, I had a lot of male friends but was "one of the guys", none of them ever wanted to be more than friends and it was the group of four pretty, slim, bubbly, proper girly-girls they all wanted. Me fancying someone? Ahahahaha, that's hilarious, what business has she got fancying anyone? I suppose that's the closest I've got to having Nice Guy feelings myself, but the difference was that I blamed myself- I thought I wasn't thin enough, not pretty enough, and just too unfeminine. I didn't think the men were too shallow and picky, I wasn't surprised that they like these obviously more attractive women.

Of course I realise the  real problem was that I had zero self-esteem, and that's not attractive to anyone. It's something I still struggle with, but I don't think it's a coincidence that I finally met The One at 30, at a time when I had just made a load of major life changes and cut off a load of toxic people who had been dragging me down and was feeling really good about myself for the first time in my life. I'm still not very feminine but that's just who I am and it's something I've come to accept and like about myself now.

Part of the self-esteem thing also comes from women being conditioned to hate themselves (and each other) of course.

It's all such a fucking mess isn't it?

[TrenterPercenter]

If there is a gender difference, I think men are conditioned to externalise things while women are conditioned to internalise them. Men seem more inclined to protest that women are too picky, and to come out with things like "What's he got that I haven't?" while women are more inclined to think they're not thin enough, not pretty enough etc.

Yep think you are on the money here.  It's just important to consider that men have been culturally coerced to externalise things which has consequences (less internal emotionally literacy for one).  That being said you can see that the "what's he got that i haven't got" is just another flavour of why am I not good enough, lots of men nowadays are pursuing the ideal body and engaging in lots of unhealthy behaviours in order to achieve it.  Just take a look at the "men's health" industry it's just a lot of idealised men telling other men how to look like them (and not telling them that the diet or drugs is going to make them miserable and impotent).   

I didn't think the men were too shallow and picky, I wasn't surprised that they like these obviously more attractive women.

Been there and yes I was shallow and literally only concerned with looks, well looks were first person next.  As a young boy growing into a young man you are literally propaganderised into deriving your value from having access to attractive females (this regardless of whether it makes you happy or not) this is the standard that men are held too by both men and women alike.  Men that have lots of female attention are sought by women simply on that basis because if he "picks" you then your value must be more than the other women. 

Women absolutely objectify and obessess over these men and have fantasies about romantic relationships with them....in a way a lady at work telling me everything about Chris Hemworths life and swooning over the imagined idea of him being her partner is more creepy than some man saying "i like the look of these tits".  It is just the damage of the disembodiment of female body parts is quite a clear and present danger to women's mental health (btw fascinating aspects of eating disordered women is they often feel disembodied and fragmented in their own bodies, they have parts i.e. bottoms, legs, breasts that they can fixate on but cannot see their bodies as whole, and often having visual distortions if seeing their whole bodies in a mirror - at the clinic i worked at not too long ago we had a special "mirror" that projects an exact image back to the the viewer as actual mirrors add to the distorting visual effects of EDs).

Like I say the male lived experience is key to a progressive equality based outlook of the world and shouldn't be scoffed at as it often is by women seeing every attempt to discuss it as taking the attention away from women's problems.  Women have lots of societal issues, sexism is badly skewed their way imo but as such they also have much of the discussion around gender.   There needs to be space for men and this is a good thing for all of us in the end. 

I get what SGN is saying, that little barbs about men are thrown into the chat about them and it isn't always fair, though imo and it is just mine, i think it is understandable women do this as (some) men have been so exasperating and for so long.

Part of the self-esteem thing also comes from women being conditioned to hate themselves (and each other) of course.

Yep absolutely, ive personally always found that an absolutist sisterhood stance is exclusionary and holds too many problems as a strategy.   That being said feminism has to be one of the most if not the most positive world changing movements ever conceived and i mean for everyone not just women.  It has absolutely carried on its back loads of other civil issues and considerations and even now is providing support and considerations to it's oppressors well being.  Women (and i've met a few) really are the some of the most impressive incredible people in the world which goes beyond the typical male-determined attributes of success, and the thing is they've had to be, just to survive.

It's all such a fucking mess isn't it?

Yep but if it was easy what would we have to moan about ; )

PARKLIFE!

[Shit Good Nose]

Good insights from Blue Jam up there and interesting points from TrenterPercenter.

Yeah, it's all a confusing angry mess.

[jamiefairlie]

I think we see it as an angry mess because we have a fundamental misapprehension of the situation. Because we live in a civilized society we expect rules and fairness to abound but mating is the quintessential 'red in blood and claw' ruthless competition. It's winner takes all with no rules and we are driven by genetic forces that we only slightly understand.

[Shit Good Nose]

Blue Jam - I was going to message you this directly, but figured a public acknowledgement was more deserving...

I've read back my posts above and realise they can easily be read to be aimed at/in response to you whilst at the same time hijacking the points you were making about your experiences with those cunts.  I'm ever so sorry if it did come across that way - it was not at all my intention and not what I was doing, it was just a kneejerk reaction to (what I, mistakenly, read as) Trenter's generalising (and apologies to you again, Trenter, for that misread), which I was making a completely separate and unrelated point.  I like to think that my posts on here are always very clear and my intention obvious, but I think I failed in this case and should have made all that above a lot clearer than I did.  Nothing to blame but my own momentary hot head.

My sincere apologies again.

As you were.

[TrenterPercenter]

No problemo from me SGN  : )

[Blue Jam]

Blue Jam - I was going to message you this directly, but figured a public acknowledgement was more deserving...

I've read back my posts above and realise they can easily be read to be aimed at/in response to you whilst at the same time hijacking the points you were making about your experiences with those cunts.

Erm, no, not at all! You're a great bunch of lads and I think you've been making some great points here!

As you were...

[Shit Good Nose]

Okay cool, ta.

It was something I noticed so I didn't want to let it go, just in case.

[touchingcloth]

Okay cool, ta.

It was something I noticed so I didn't want to let it go, just in case.

UNBELIEVABLE BURN HIM

[Shit Good Nose]

UNBELIEVABLE BURN HIM

Can't even apologise without being branded as a racist and put in prison now.  Typical.

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

That may just as much be an age thing, though, and also a possible presumption (founded or unfounded) that in the post "#metoo" woke era the way people used to seek out a partner may not be the generally done, or accepted, thing any more.

(huge, exhausted SIGH)