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Is the PHWOAARR thread we have a bit rum?

Started by Polymorphia, October 07, 2020, 08:10:16 PM

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flotemysost

Quote from: Blue Jam on October 18, 2020, 03:30:47 PM
That was my experience as an undergrad anyway. I was never one of the popular girls, I had a lot of male friends but was "one of the guys", none of them ever wanted to be more than friends and it was the group of four pretty, slim, bubbly, proper girly-girls they all wanted. Me fancying someone? Ahahahaha, that's hilarious, what business has she got fancying anyone? I suppose that's the closest I've got to having Nice Guy feelings myself, but the difference was that I blamed myself- I thought I wasn't thin enough, not pretty enough, and just too unfeminine. I didn't think the men were too shallow and picky, I wasn't surprised that they like these obviously more attractive women.

I can relate to this a fair bit - in my second year particularly, I mostly hung around with men, and although a few of them did allude that they fancied me on some level, I always felt like it was a bit of a "dirty secret" - like I wasn't an obvious choice, I might be good for a laugh/desperate enough to not be too fussy, but it wasn't something they'd openly admit to (the worst example of this being my dickhead racist flatmate trying it on with me while his girlfriend was asleep in the next room), unlike my more obviously pretty female friends, who they'd openly leer at and flirt with whenever I had them over.

Likewise I had fuckawful self esteem (in my case I was a self-harming bulimic mess at the time) and I thought I was basically just a stupid ugly failure, inherently inferior to my more conventionally attractive female friends and completely deserving of any rejection or scorn.

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on October 18, 2020, 04:18:13 PM
Women absolutely objectify and obessess over these men and have fantasies about romantic relationships with them....in a way a lady at work telling me everything about Chris Hemworths life and swooning over the imagined idea of him being her partner is more creepy than some man saying "i like the look of these tits".

I used to work in an office largely managed by middle-aged women, and the comments they'd make about some of the younger male employees were downright uncomfortable. One of these managers also used to obsess over boy band members and would go on about the objects of her lust to anyone in earshot, in a manner not unlike some of the weirder "Mate."-tier posts in the PHWOAARR thread, which were being called out earlier in this one.

Your point about the disembodiment of female body parts is spot on too IMHO. I've known men who have suffered badly from these feelings too, but obviously female bodies are generally FAR more heavily scrutinised, policed and held up to insane standards from a very early age.

bgmnts

I have no idea if a woman has ever fancied me, I'm unsure how I'd feel about someone talking about me like men talk about women. I think i'd be mega flattered.

flotemysost

Quote from: bgmnts on October 18, 2020, 11:21:44 PM
I have no idea if a woman has ever fancied me, I'm unsure how I'd feel about someone talking about me like men talk about women. I think i'd be mega flattered.

In some of my darker and more ill-informed moments I'm ashamed to say I sometimes used to think "God, why are feminists always moaning about objectification, I would fucking LOVE to be objectified by someone, I'll take that over my current state of just feeling like a repulsive waste of flesh". But spend any amount of time hearing this kind of talk (whether or not it's directed at you) and pretty soon it becomes clear that it's not actually that flattering at all, it's threatening and oppressive and just really shit, and often not even necessarily about fancying the person (as the umpteen accounts of the ol' "Alright, gorgeous!... No? Wouldn't shag you anyway, you ugly bint!" dichotomy will attest).

Obviously that depends what you mean by "how men talk about women", but I assume you're thinking more along the lines of "a bit rum" than compliments or general nice comments.

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: bgmnts on October 18, 2020, 11:21:44 PM
I have no idea if a woman has ever fancied me, I'm unsure how I'd feel about someone talking about me like men talk about women. I think i'd be mega flattered.

EDIT - what flotemysost said.


There's compliments and then there's "compliments", plus you can never predict how someone (male, female, transgender, fluid, whomever) is going to take said compliments unless you know them well, which isn't me saying "pff, snowflakes - GAWWW!!!!", I'm saying some people should try to engage brain before mouth and consider the other person's feelings more often than they do.

Mr_Simnock

Quote from: bgmnts on October 18, 2020, 11:21:44 PM
I have no idea if a woman has ever fancied me, I'm unsure how I'd feel about someone talking about me like men talk about women. I think i'd be mega flattered.

yes they very probably have

Sin Agog

Most of the complimentary comments I've overheard about me have been regarding my arse.  If only they saw that cratered cottage-cheese-in-a-shopping bag bombsite sans trousers they would be choking on their words.

touchingcloth

Quote from: flotemysost on October 18, 2020, 11:41:51 PM
In some of my darker and more ill-informed moments I'm ashamed to say I sometimes used to think "God, why are feminists always moaning about objectification, I would fucking LOVE to be objectified by someone, I'll take that over my current state of just feeling like a repulsive waste of flesh". But spend any amount of time hearing this kind of talk (whether or not it's directed at you) and pretty soon it becomes clear that it's not actually that flattering at all, it's threatening and oppressive and just really shit, and often not even necessarily about fancying the person (as the umpteen accounts of the ol' "Alright, gorgeous!... No? Wouldn't shag you anyway, you ugly bint!" dichotomy will attest).

Obviously that depends what you mean by "how men talk about women", but I assume you're thinking more along the lines of "a bit rum" than compliments or general nice comments.

I've always had a hunch that when women vocally leer over men it's at least on some - probably unconscious - level a kick back against a misogynist society. A reclaiming of leering, if you like - if men are allowed to act like this, then why don't we? Which isn't to say it's cool, of course.

Another difference is the gender power dynamic. The very small handful of occasions I can remember when I was openly objectified were when I was working as a waiter in my late teens serving all-female groups of older women getting rowdy on hen dos or birthday outings. I'm not a sexy man so I think the leering was something that any low status man of about my age would have got from those same groups regardless of looks, but the main thing is that I was never afraid that I'd finish my shift and find the women round a corner outside waiting to rape me. I felt uncomfortable but mainly because I was a young and insecure man, while I assume women being wolf whistled from building sites feel an amount of fear mixed in with the discomfort.

GoblinAhFuckScary

Quote from: touchingcloth on October 19, 2020, 07:55:55 AM
I've always had a hunch that when women vocally leer over men it's at least on some - probably unconscious - level a kick back against a misogynist society. A reclaiming of leering, if you like - if men are allowed to act like this, then why don't we? Which isn't to say it's cool, of course.

Another difference is the gender power dynamic. The very small handful of occasions I can remember when I was openly objectified were when I was working as a waiter in my late teens serving all-female groups of older women getting rowdy on hen dos or birthday outings. I'm not a sexy man so I think the leering was something that any low status man of about my age would have got from those same groups regardless of looks, but the main thing is that I was never afraid that I'd finish my shift and find the women round a corner outside waiting to rape me. I felt uncomfortable but mainly because I was a young and insecure man, while I assume women being wolf whistled from building sites feel an amount of fear mixed in with the discomfort.

There's that quote that gets attributed to Margaret Atwood that goes along the lines of "Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them".

touchingcloth

Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on October 19, 2020, 06:40:04 PM
There's that quote that gets attributed to Margaret Atwood that goes along the lines of "Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them".

Yep, that's the crux of it. I'm not a large or a strong man, but I can't think of any time in my life when I've been in a public place and feared being attacked. I have a horrible memory of one night at university when I had got the bus back from town, and a woman got off ahead of me at my stop and started walking on the same route as I did back to my house, and it wasn't a straight route there were lots of twists and turns and changes of street, so she must have lived somewhere near me. She kept glancing back at me, and I was hanging increasingly further back to not freak her out, but at one point she crossed the road and started walking on the opposite pavement - not because she was going down a side street, just to carry on walking in a straight line. The realisation that that was probably because I was making her feel threatened still haunts me.

Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse

Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on October 19, 2020, 06:40:04 PM
There's that quote that gets attributed to Margaret Atwood that goes along the lines of "Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them".
I should point out it's not a quote exactly. She went round a classroom of college students and asked them what they were most afraid of if they asked someone out/went home with them. The men all talked about being rejected, laughed at, humiliated. The women talked about being raped or murdered.

kalowski

Quote from: touchingcloth on October 19, 2020, 07:46:59 PM
Yep, that's the crux of it. I'm not a large or a strong man, but I can't think of any time in my life when I've been in a public place and feared being attacked. I have a horrible memory of one night at university when I had got the bus back from town, and a woman got off ahead of me at my stop and started walking on the same route as I did back to my house, and it wasn't a straight route there were lots of twists and turns and changes of street, so she must have lived somewhere near me. She kept glancing back at me, and I was hanging increasingly further back to not freak her out, but at one point she crossed the road and started walking on the opposite pavement - not because she was going down a side street, just to carry on walking in a straight line. The realisation that that was probably because I was making her feel threatened still haunts me.
Of course you were bringing equipment back from the university knife society.

JaDanketies

You can forgive yourself because someone got threatened because you were on the same public street as them and walking in the same direction. I used to care about things like that - I used to cross the street, for instance, when I was walking behind a single woman, so they wouldn't think I was following them. And at some point in my life I decided this was ridiculous and stopped doing it.

QDRPHNC

I don't think it's ridiculous to be aware of the effect you might have walking behind a lone woman at night. Nor do I thought it should haunt anyone forever.

bgmnts

Quote from: JaDanketies on October 19, 2020, 08:53:00 PM
And at some point in my life I decided this was ridiculous and stopped doing it.

I dont think it's entirely ridiculous to be considerate of others.

Captain Z

Quote from: bgmnts on October 19, 2020, 08:56:52 PM
I dont think it's entirely ridiculous to be considerate of others.

Cuh, check out the far-left extremist here.

JaDanketies

There's being considerate of others, and then there's crossing to the wrong side of the street because you feel guilty about walking behind someone. It was more like my mind said: "This person might think I am a rapist" so I needed to clarify to them that I was not a rapist. It's a bizarre thought process, like unpleasant brain litter.

I'm not saying that being considerate of others is ridiculous but I think worrying that others think you might be a rapist because you are on the same street as them is ridiculous. You shouldn't be thinking about how much of a rapist you might seem to a stranger when you're simply walking home or to the shops in a completely normal fashion.

Elderly Sumo Prophecy

Just tell them you're not a rapist, to put their minds at ease.

JaDanketies

Quote from: Elderly Sumo Prophecy on October 19, 2020, 09:08:46 PM
Just tell them you're not a rapist, to put their minds at ease.

This was on an episode of Peep Show, wasn't it? Mark shouting "I'm not a rapist!"

Crossing the street / beating yourself up for years afterwards is total Mark behaviour.

Cold Meat Platter

So is going PHWOOOOAAAAAAR right out altogether these days then? What about bisecting one arm at the elbow with the cupped hand of the other whilst clenching the fist of the first arm and extending the joint so as to move the forearm repeatedly towards then away from the gesturer's body?
Whither holding one's collar to one side to allow an imaginary jet of steam to escape?

Would any of the Looney Left SMERSH Stasi care to step up to the plate?

QDRPHNC

Quote from: JaDanketies on October 19, 2020, 09:07:01 PM
There's being considerate of others, and then there's crossing to the wrong side of the street because you feel guilty about walking behind someone. It was more like my mind said: "This person might think I am a rapist" so I needed to clarify to them that I was not a rapist. It's a bizarre thought process, like unpleasant brain litter.

It's not guilt, it's awareness that my perception of the situation is not the only one.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

Quote from: JaDanketies on October 19, 2020, 09:07:01 PM
There's being considerate of others, and then there's crossing to the wrong side of the street because you feel guilty about walking behind someone. It was more like my mind said: "This person might think I am a rapist" so I needed to clarify to them that I was not a rapist. It's a bizarre thought process, like unpleasant brain litter.

I'm not saying that being considerate of others is ridiculous but I think worrying that others think you might be a rapist because you are on the same street as them is ridiculous. You shouldn't be thinking about how much of a rapist you might seem to a stranger when you're simply walking home or to the shops in a completely normal fashion.
Yes. Good forbid you should make the smallest possible effort to reassure someone.

Icehaven

Quote from: JaDanketies on October 19, 2020, 09:07:01 PM
You shouldn't be thinking about how much of a rapist you might seem to a stranger when you're simply walking home or to the shops in a completely normal fashion.

You shouldn't have to think about whether the stranger walking behind you is a rapist as you simply walk home or to the shops in a completely normal fashion either, but you do. The whole thing's not fair on anyone innocent, but one side has a lot more to lose if they don't think about it.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

I'm going to start brandishing a bit knife when I'm queuing up at the cash machine. After all, I know I'm not a mugger.

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on October 19, 2020, 09:44:57 PM
I'm going to start brandishing a bit knife when I'm queuing up at the cash machine. After all, I know I'm not a mugger.

You are, however, a murderer.

Chollis

Quote from: JaDanketies on October 19, 2020, 09:07:01 PM
I think worrying that others think you might be a rapist because you are on the same street as them is ridiculous. You shouldn't be thinking about how much of a rapist you might seem to a stranger when you're simply walking home or to the shops in a completely normal fashion.

considering the following:

Quote from: touchingcloth on October 19, 2020, 07:46:59 PMa woman got off ahead of me at my stop and started walking on the same route as I did back to my house, and it wasn't a straight route there were lots of twists and turns and changes of street

i think it's a reasonable reaction to be a bit spooked. could just hang back for 30 seconds to put someone's mind at ease.

JaDanketies

I guess it feeds into a previous conversation I've had on this forum, perhaps in this very thread - actually I think it was the alt-right thread - about how we fear the boogeyman rapist who attacks you on the street, despite this representing a tiny minority of crimes, and we don't fear our friends, colleagues, family, romantic partners etc, who we would happily walk home with despite how statistically dangerous they are.

The bad thing to do is to attack someone. Walking on the same street as them is not a bad thing. If they fear you more than a colleague then their fear is not representative of the real risk.

I think as well, part of my motivation for crossing the street was empathy, but another part - maybe the major part - was ego. I didn't want to be judged as a creep by a stranger.

In reality, you walking on the same side of the road as a single woman is not even worth an anecdote to the single woman. When she comes home, she's unlikely to mention you or give you a second thought.

Honestly, it used to feel like I was potentially creeping out other pedestrians all the time when I was in the anxiety-cross-the-street headspace. And now I got out of it and I never ever feel like I have creeped out a pedestrian. And I am confident that no pedestrian has given me a second thought after they reach their destination unassailed.

I would not go back to the old 'does this stranger think I'm a creep' mindset easily. It wasn't conducive to happiness.

However as Chollis said, yeah maybe if I was walking the identical way for a mile through peculiar back streets I would notice and would be conscious of it and would maybe crack and tie my shoelace like a hypocrite. I wouldn't be guilty about it for years afterwards

QDRPHNC


bgmnts

On the one hand, I suppose even a good thing done for bad reasons is good.
On the other, if your ego supersedes your empathy for others, I don't know...

JaDanketies

My ego and my empathy were working hand in hand. The reason I crossed the street was because of ego just as much as it was for empathy. Now I think strangers don't give a shit about me and I'm pretty sure I'm correct almost 100% of the time

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth