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March 29, 2024, 02:05:03 PM

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Suzanne Moore quits The Guardian [split topic]

Started by Sebastian Cobb, November 16, 2020, 07:43:55 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

GoblinAhFuckScary

Quote from: canadagoose on November 28, 2020, 10:39:03 PM
Arguing against trans rights seems to be surprisingly common amongst older trans people.

Depressing. Reminded of that Debbie Hayton/Glinner snap



glinner looks like my dad in this nooooo

canadagoose

Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on November 28, 2020, 10:49:59 PM
Depressing. Reminded of that Debbie Hayton/Glinner snap



glinner looks like my dad in this nooooo
Hayton's a right yin, isn't she. I'd almost suggest she enjoys being treated like shit, but it doesn't make much sense.

GoblinAhFuckScary

Utterly tragic case. Prostrates herself in front of these scumbags and they still don't accept her.


Mister Six

Christ almighty, like piranha on a sickly calf. Absolutely awful people, aren't they? Nasty pack of bullies.

Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse

Quote from: Zetetic on November 28, 2020, 06:42:13 PM
The question is really why they think this is such an interesting topic to spend so much time to the exclusion of much else.
My theory is that the well-off straight women TERFs are so insulated from the more serious issues faced by women that they sincerely believe that The Trans Menace Invading Our Spaces is the most pressing threat to women at the moment. Abortion has been legal in the UK for 50+ years, they can afford cleaners and nannies and don't have to work the "second shift" still taken on by many lworking mothers, they are free to pursue careers of their choosing. Sexism for them is The Trans Menace, and occasionally some dipshit mansplaining their own columns/books to them. They hullaballoo about trans women maybe competing in women's sports but do nothing to actually support women's sports (many of which are still held in low regard compared to "proper", men's sports). The Trans Menace Wants to Rape Us, but do they donate to rape crisis centres? Or women's shelters?

Trans folk make up about 1% of the population. They hold no institutional power. They cannot oppress cis people. They cannot oppress cis women.

buttgammon

While the privileged can scream and shout about people using the toilet, those of us who actually care about women are worried about domestic violence epidemic. How lucky - and ignorant - must someone be to care more about who plays rugby or uses which bathroom than widespread violence and murder? A lot of people don't get the choice to prioritise those things.

JaDanketies

They only talk about FGM, domestic violence and murder in order to minimise the experiences of trans women or make some statement about how they're dangerous because chromosomes. It's jarring to see someone bringing up FGM in an attempt to shout down trans women.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

QuoteHow lucky - and ignorant - must someone be

Yes, as postulated by myself and others on previous threads, the TERF phenomenon (not only views held but willingness to spend disproportionate amounts of time fighting battles  online) has exposed itself as being strongly class/generational in nature, but it has also exposed the increasingly segregated nature of all our existence. We are discovering through technology and through the bombarding of issues and causes that we are among strangers, and apparently we don't like it.

Urinal Cake


Quote from: Urinal Cake on November 29, 2020, 11:50:22 AM
Maybe we should just get rid of toilets.

Local council meeting doesn't consider rewrite.

Bernice

F is for the way you look at me
G is for the only one I see
M is very very extraordinary
E is keep men in dresses out of women's bathrooms

Cold Meat Platter

Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on November 29, 2020, 11:10:56 AM
Yes, as postulated by myself and others on previous threads.

Oh, been postulating again have we?

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Quote from: Cold Meat Platter on November 29, 2020, 01:58:36 PM
Oh, been postulating again have we?

Not only that but theorising, hypothesising, positing and advancing all over the bloody place.


Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on November 28, 2020, 10:49:59 PM
Depressing. Reminded of that Debbie Hayton/Glinner snap



glinner looks like my dad in this nooooo

Stewart Lee and Debbie Harry have let themselves go.

Ray Travez

she's got the lyrics to Smells Like Teen Spirit wrong and it irks me. It's

With the lights out
This is dangerous,
Here we are now, entertain us
Anger's stupid, and contagious
Here we are now, entertain us


alright cheers

JaDanketies

Debbie Hayton's gonna feel real stupid if she gets to see the gender criticals lose conclusively in the court of public opinion.



Blue Jam

Quote from: JaDanketies on November 29, 2020, 10:57:32 AM
They only talk about FGM, domestic violence and murder in order to minimise the experiences of trans women or make some statement about how they're dangerous because chromosomes.

They're like MRAs who only talk about male suicide, male workplace deaths and prison rape in order to shut down discussion of feminist issues. The more I read about them, the more TERFs and MRAs seem to have in common.

As I've said before I know a few Skeptics In The Pub types who have gone full TERF and now spend a lot of time on social media ranting about the destruction of women's sports when I know for a fact that they had zero interest in sport of any kind before. They're the kind of people who would wonder aloud about the dumb masses who would rather watch Match Of The Day than Horizon and sneeringly ask "Can't we go to a pub that isn't showing the sportsball?". It's only now they've missed the 2019 Women's World Cup and don't actually have to sit through any of it that they can pretend they give a fuck.

Buelligan

Quote from: Mister Six on November 28, 2020, 11:37:35 PM
Christ almighty, like piranha on a sickly calf. Absolutely awful people, aren't they? Nasty pack of bullies.

It's really shocking to read.  What is wrong with them?  I don't like them coming into my spaces, not at all.

TrenterPercenter

#291
Quote from: Blue Jam on December 08, 2020, 11:44:49 AM
They're like MRAs who only talk about male suicide, male workplace deaths and prison rape in order to shut down discussion of feminist issues. The more I read about them, the more TERFs and MRAs seem to have in common.

People seem to get attached to their cause, engage in a them and us mentally and then use that to channel a load of other personal issues into these things. 

It's really interesting how feminist TERFs are being considered as bad faith operators in regard to trans issues when a lot of what they are saying is actually very similar to discriminatory things said about men in the arguments of yore; they are all potential rapists/perverts/dangerous/seeking to remove female rights/don't understand what it is like to be a woman (they very likely the same people).

These people, like MRAs, have always made conversations difficult; male suicide is a thing to be concerned about but not at the exclusion of feminist issues.  It think it is an exclusionary mindset from the outset that drives a lot of these things; the issues themselves are often worthy of discussion but how they are discussed and the temptation for players in these discussions to display to their group how important they are to it (the group not the issue) is just too much (and of course seeing importance and a monetising aspect explains your columnists).

I seem to remember an old CAB row about 7 years ago about a Jessica Valenti column in which she wasn't necessarily wrong in her point but was choosing to be pretty prejudicial and derogatory towards men how she went about it.   Lots of presumably male posters were annoyed about being spoken about in this way, yet a lot of other posters saw it as fair to attack them for the greater good, seems a good fit for TERFISM; no doubt they see being nasty to people and grouping all criminals in a with a particular group as the greater good for their cause.

PS - just to make it absolutely clear I completely agree with your point on MRAs! just expanding it out to how these groups seem to lose sight of compassion for their own beliefs (MRAs being the no1. baggage dressed up as arguments people - incredible how few ever actually want to talk about male issues and not how women are to solely to blame for them - my view is they can't because then they would have to accept a patriarchal society which they are not going to do because it benefits them).

Mister Six

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on December 08, 2020, 12:11:15 PM
It's really interesting how feminist TERFs are being considered as bad faith operators in regard to trans issues when a lot of what they are saying is actually very similar to discriminatory things said about men in the arguments of yore; they are all potential rapists/perverts/dangerous/seeking to remove female rights/don't understand what it is like to be a woman (they very likely the same people).

A lot of the true TERFs (as opposed to horrible transphobes who are not really feminists in any meaningful way) were part of, or take their cues from, the transphobic end of second-wave feminism, especially lesbian feminism, so that's not really a surprise, nor (as I think you imply) out of character.

JaDanketies

There seems to be a common view that rights or even respect is a zero-sum game, and that if you give rights or respect to any oppressed group, then this is to the detriment of other groups. Hence MRAs and feminists butting heads about who has it worse.

I remember Jessica Valenti and it would be unsurprising if she turned out to be a terf but she's a yank so it's unlikely. To our embarrassment, even the most nakedly man-hating feminists in America probably never succumbed to terfery.

Mister Six

Quote from: JaDanketies on December 08, 2020, 02:27:55 PM
There seems to be a common view that rights or even respect is a zero-sum game, and that if you give rights or respect to any oppressed group, then this is to the detriment of other groups. Hence MRAs and feminists butting heads about who has it worse.

Identity politics, man, it fucks with people's heads. Leads to gatekeeping and competition for oppression instead of solidarity and mutual aid between oppressed groups.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: JaDanketies on December 08, 2020, 02:27:55 PM
There seems to be a common view that rights or even respect is a zero-sum game, and that if you give rights or respect to any oppressed group, then this is to the detriment of other groups. Hence MRAs and feminists butting heads about who has it worse.

I remember Jessica Valenti and it would be unsurprising if she turned out to be a terf but she's a yank so it's unlikely. To our embarrassment, even the most nakedly man-hating feminists in America probably never succumbed to terfery.

Well exactly, you create oppressed groups and make them fight against each other.  Same as it ever was.

Again just for clarity I am not saying Valenti is a TERF - i've no idea what her thoughts are it was just an example from CAB colourful history discussing gender issues.

bgmnts

Quote from: Mister Six on December 08, 2020, 02:31:42 PM
Identity politics, man, it fucks with people's heads. Leads to gatekeeping and competition for oppression instead of solidarity and mutual aid between oppressed groups.

I mean I suppose it's easier to think that if you're not part of an oppressed group.

chveik

Quote from: bgmnts on December 08, 2020, 02:33:57 PM
I mean I suppose it's easier to think that if you're not part of an oppressed group.

the demographics of people complaining about identity politics is easy to determine (as is the demographics of people using it for nefarious ends)

Mister Six

Quote from: bgmnts on December 08, 2020, 02:33:57 PM
I mean I suppose it's easier to think that if you're not part of an oppressed group.

Or if you've seen black people telling Arabs they're not really oppressed in the US because they were never enslaved, or lighter skinned black people being told they're not really black by darker skinned black people, or seen middle-class black kids in New York making fun of desperately poor whites in Kentucky, or desperately poor whites turning to neo-Nazism rather than banding together with desperately poor black people in their area,[nb]Yes, white supremacy is identity politics too. "Identity politics" is a neutral term.[/nb] or physically disabled people telling mentally disabled people that they can't use the phrase "crippling anxiety" "because cripple is our word", or - pertinent to this thread - cis women erecting fences around the word "women" rather than inviting in trans women who are also likely to suffer abuse at the hands of cis men.

Mister Six

Remember: MRAs, Gamergate and the KKK are also examples of identity politics.