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Black Lives Matter - France

Started by Buelligan, November 27, 2020, 08:19:16 AM

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chveik

Quote from: jamiefairlie on November 27, 2020, 08:26:14 PM
Because some/many of them believe in their religion and therefore believe other religions should be supplanted/made secondary. Of course the same applies to Christians all other fuckwits of that ilk.

reaching quite a bit there

anyway the police brutality events aren't directly linked with muslims and all the blasphemy stuff. black and brown people are more likely to be targeted by the police (regardless of their faith - or lack of) but it goes beyond that - people have also been killed/severely injured during protests these past years that had nothing to do with BLM.  I'd say it's more a question of class warfare.

Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse

You would think wouldn't you that the French would get over their disdain for the rest of us and take a look two countries over at what happens when you start oppressing people based on religion. It's like all those decades of terrorism never happened or something.

Twit 2


chveik

Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on November 27, 2020, 09:18:31 PM
You would think wouldn't you that the French would get over their disdain for the rest of us and take a look two countries over at what happens when you start oppressing people based on religion. It's like all those decades of terrorism never happened or something.

you need be more specific

Buelligan

*shrugs*  It's perfectly natural to have worries about whether your cooking appears to be risibly shrunken and tiny, when compared with, let's say, others.  *shrugs*

pcsjwgm

French police raiding people's homes and arresting children for "defending terrorism":
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/23/world/europe/france-extremism-children.html

Interior Minister Gerald Darmanin threatens to deport foreign parents who simply complain about what their children are shown by teachers:
https://twitter.com/trtworld/status/1329894857289175042

Buelligan

Like we didn't see that one being popped into the breech.  Still, one teacher must have the right to do whatever he, individually, decides is valuable, this is how we make our communities more equal, more cohesive.

Anyone for a prayer breakfast?  I hear they do some marvelous ones in the States.

Fambo Number Mive

QuoteFrance's Interior Minister Gerald Darmanin says foreign parents who complain about their children being shown insensitive cartoons will get deported

Surely that's against international human rights laws? It's certainly discriminatory.

If the response to any parent who complains is deportation rather than the school trying to present their side of the argument, it doesn't make it look like school has a good argument to show insensitive cartoons.

I'm really surprised this is happening in France. I can imagine such a thing happening in authoritarian Brexit Britain, but I thought France was a much more civilised country than the UK.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

QuoteI'm really surprised this is happening in France. I can imagine such a thing happening in authoritarian Brexit Britain, but I thought France was a much more civilised country than the

Read about France's colonial history and established fascist traditions.

greenman

Quote from: Fambo Number Mive on November 28, 2020, 12:11:33 PM
i'm really surprised this is happening in France. I can imagine such a thing happening in authoritarian Brexit Britain, but I thought France was a much more civilised country than the UK.

Centralist government who were pushed as the only alternative to the rise of the racist far right start to adopt their tactics shocker.

Buelligan

I think it's a shadow moving across Western democracies - authoritarians are frightened, they see their soft power and their secret power being threatened by the power of people seeing what the fuck is going on and doing something about it.  They see their traditional leaching of public money away from communities, workers, and towards private profit being exposed.  Their protection rackets, overturned.

When these things happen, fascism always rises, convenient outrages occur, Centrists pivot towards the Establishment to retain votes and reasonable people vote "Moderate" to keep the fascists in fascist's clothing out.  Little imagining that the "Moderates" are serving the same goal.  No democracy is immune from it.

Sebastian Cobb

The 'you just don't understand laïcité' is galling given this is so obviously a case of performative oppression simply to appease cunts who would have otherwise voted for Le Pen.

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: Buelligan on November 28, 2020, 12:22:56 PM
I think it's a shadow moving across Western democracies - authoritarians are frightened, they see their soft power and their secret power being threatened by the power of people seeing what the fuck is going on and doing something about it.  They see their traditional leaching of public money away from communities, workers, and towards private profit being exposed.  Their protection rackets, overturned.

When these things happen, fascism always rises, convenient outrages occur, Centrists pivot towards the Establishment to retain votes and reasonable people vote "Moderate" to keep the fascists in fascist's clothing out.  Little imagining that the "Moderates" are serving the same goal.  No democracy is immune from it.

The grip always tightens when systems start failing and the fact the system is failing is presenting itself in a myriad of ways.

Buelligan

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on November 28, 2020, 12:24:40 PM
The 'you just don't understand laïcité' is galling given this is so obviously a case of performative oppression simply to appease cunts who would have otherwise voted for Le Pen.

Absolutely.  Particularly galling because these same people practically sanctified Samuel Paty, who, whatever anyone thinks of him, as a public servant, ignored laïcité and by ignoring it, damaged it for the whole country.  His actions, followed by their actions, pushed reasonable people to draw a veil over the whole concept.

chveik

Samuel Paty didn't do anything wrong. he was subject of a smear campaign on social media that led to his death.

Buelligan

I don't want to argue about this chveik, so I'll just ask you to consider - is there a rule that religious symbols are banned in France in places like schools?  Is that rule a pillar of the laïcité?  Are all servants of the state required to uphold the laïcité?  Is the laïcité there (in part) to allow all citizens to go about their public lives, work, be educated, without fear of persecution and able to feel that their families are safe, considered, respected, moving about in the system?

How is the laïcité protected or supported by introducing deeply contentious religious material into a classroom?

chveik

Quote from: Buelligan on November 28, 2020, 01:23:13 PM
I don't want to argue about this chveik

and yet you are, while carefully ignoring that no one in the muslim community had a problem with this class - teaching children about freedom of expression - before a few disingenuous cunts used it (and lied about quite a few important details, for instance that the children were forced to watch the caricatures) to spread hate. a man was brutally murdered just because he thought rational and passionless debate is a good way to prevent tensions.

chveik

this particular interpretation of laicité is debatable but it can be resolved without violence. I don't except it to happen given the stupidity of everyone involved - the authorities, the media and the religious fanatics

Buelligan

But do you not see, the laïcité exists because of the stupidity and wickedness of all of these groups? 

It's not a random rule.  It is there because intelligent people were able to create it to protect all of us (from the gullible and the evil). 

I'm not interested in discussing Paty's motivations, fwiw (nothing), I see him as an innocent fool but his actions, whatever his motivations were, have permitted authoritarians to harness the blind aggression of the stupid and use it to damage the laïcité.  Because it is their enemy. 

Holding Paty up as some sort of hero empowers this and them, damaging the laïcité by dividing our community, by allowing the bleeding of religion into secular life, by encouraging intolerance on all sides.  It's utterly idiotic and plays directly into the hands of people who would be the first to practice bigotry and repression.

Chedney Honks

Nothing to add about France, very fond of it, but good to finally see that coppers are tazing and arresting people for not wearing a mask. Respect ce soir et tous les mercredis c'est gratuit.

chveik

Quote from: Buelligan on November 28, 2020, 02:28:40 PM
But do you not see, the laïcité exists because of the stupidity and wickedness of all of these groups? 

It's not a random rule.  It is there because intelligent people were able to create it to protect all of us (from the gullible and the evil). 

I'm not interested in discussing Paty's motivations, fwiw (nothing), I see him as an innocent fool but his actions, whatever his motivations were, have permitted authoritarians to harness the blind aggression of the stupid and use it to damage the laïcité.  Because it is their enemy. 

Holding Paty up as some sort of hero empowers this and them, damaging the laïcité by dividing our community, by allowing the bleeding of religion into secular life, by encouraging intolerance on all sides.  It's utterly idiotic and plays directly into the hands of people who would be the first to practice bigotry and repression.

you have a very inflexible way of understanding laicité, it is allowed to show documents related to religion in school.

he's not a hero, the same way nurses dying of covid because they weren't properly protected aren't (with all the death threats he was receiving, they should've known he was in serious danger).

no need for this kind of sophistry (ie finding some elaborate way to blame the victim), you can at the same time find his death horrible and being against the measures taken by the government that will perpetuate the circle of violence (which is what terrorists are looking for too).

Buelligan

I'm not sure where you've got the idea that I don't find his death horrible, terrible and wrong.  Nevertheless, you illustrate precisely the point I was making.

chveik

I don't agree with the way you're holding him indirectly responsible for the policies being enacted right now, because these policies were already written, and because we witness the same discourse after each terrorist attack, whatever led to it beforehand.

Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse

As someone who just read the wikipedia article about the murder of Samuel Paty, I think the government is absolutely using his death as an excuse to crack down on Muslims. His killer, unless deradicalised, would've murdered somebody in the name of ISIS. He just happened to hear of Paty first. And the gendarmes murdered him, an eye for an eye, right secular France?

greenman

Macron is really the obvious warning that "moderates" are no defence against the rise of the far right, sold out careerists will simple take on the values of the far right when it suits them to gain/keep power that will allow things to drift even further to the right.