Labour Party - Just about as bad as you can get

[NoSleep]

"Corbyism without Corbyn"

Socialism without socialism, more like. Corbyn wasn't the problem; it would happen to anyone promoting such a platform who was in that position. He was more honest and patient in his handling of his monstering than most would be capable. It's always going to be a hard fight against the establishment.

[greenman]

Socialism without socialism, more like. Corbyn wasn't the problem; it would happen to anyone promoting such a platform who was in that position. He was more honest and patient in his handling of his monstering than most would be capable. It's always going to be a hard fight against the establishment.

Yes I'd agree BUT I do think there was a significant part of the left of Labour's support who bought into the idea that some kind of compromise might be possible, that Corbyn's politics could be carried on without him by someone the media would look more friendly on.

Many here knew that wasn't the case beforehand of course but Starmer has I think made it pretty clear to everyone now and if actually forced into another leadership election I wonder how much support he would lose?

The biggest issue that Bastini was I think hinting towards is really that comprise is impossible with people who are fundamentally opposed to what you stand for. If we do get into the same position again of a left wing labour leader and NEC then I think its clear manidatory reselection needs to be introduced.

[Johnny Yesno]

Keith should have consulted a focus group.

Underrated post.

[Johnny Yesno]

I'm not going to join the Labour Party (but then I probably was never going to do that anyway, regardless of who was in charge) but now I'm thinking that I don't even want to fucking vote for them. Having tolerated Kinnock, Blair, Brown and Milliband, and having voted Labour consistently over the years, I think I have now reached the end of my tether when it comes to party politics.

Finally cancelled membership

Have a little listen to Aaron Bastani interviewing Richard Burgon - this is the reason to keep paying attention to the Labour Party, hopefully, things will improve soo.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SqJV4cF2k4

I came here to post that myself. SpiderChrist, Zet, you should watch the video. As Burgon points out, things look bad here but think about what the Bolivian left were up against. They didn't whinge on an internet forum and then give up. Some of them got killed for their political beliefs but eventually they won.

[chveik]

hardly a useful comparison

[Kelvin]

No left winger should be voting Labour, though. Spiderchrist is right about that. I agree with staying a member and voting to influence the party, but at any and all local and general elections, they can get to absolute fuck.

[Fambo Number Mive]

The mask slips in the Times: https://twitter.com/CallumCant1/status/1348966149548072960

[Johnny Yesno]

hardly a useful comparison

Why?

[olliebean]

No left winger should be voting Labour, though. Spiderchrist is right about that. I agree with staying a member and voting to influence the party, but at any and all local and general elections, they can get to absolute fuck.

How the fuck else am I supposed to vote against the Tories in a constituency where no other party is in with a shout?

[Kelvin]

How the fuck else am I supposed to vote against the Tories in a constituency where no other party is in with a shout?

You should vote with you conscience, of course. But imo, if there is to be any hope of meaningful change in the longer term, then in the short term, so-called centrist Labour has to lose badly.

[NoSleep]

How the fuck else am I supposed to vote against the Tories in a constituency where no other party is in with a shout?

Back to business as usual. Never voting for anything, but always against something worse.

[NoSleep]

I came here to post that myself. SpiderChrist, Zet, you should watch the video. As Burgon points out, things look bad here but think about what the Bolivian left were up against. They didn't whinge on an internet forum and then give up. Some of them got killed for their political beliefs but eventually they won.

The Burgon interview explains just how dogged the left must be in keeping a presence in the Labour Party. It's going to be made even harder for us to gain back the ground, unless people hold onto their membership and learn the lessons. If it wasn't for people like Jeremy Corbyn, who stuck with Labour through Kinnock, Blair, Brown and Miliband, we would never have glimpsed the possibility of a transformative Labour government.

[Zetetic]

Best of luck for anyone strong and motivated enough to do that.

I'm not, and right now it's not to my benefit or the party's to try to involve myself in it any further.

[NoSleep]

You don't have to do anything but be there to vote for the left when necessary, unless you are too poor or disgusted by Keith to pay your subs.

[Absorb the anus burn]

You don't have to do anything but be there to vote for the left when necessary, unless you are too poor or disgusted by Keith to pay your subs.

What if I'm both?

[NoSleep]

You have two excuses instead of one.

[honeychile]

No left winger should be voting Labour, though. Spiderchrist is right about that. I agree with staying a member and voting to influence the party, but at any and all local and general elections, they can get to absolute fuck.

I agree in principle and want to vote Green at the coming local elections to trigger change in the party, and mine is the sort of ward where if people do that Labour will lose seats (probably to the Tories, but what's the fucking difference any more). But... my local councillors are decent leftists, Momentum members (one of them still uses a Corbyn avatar on Twitter...), and i don't want to weaken what little voice we already have.

[Zetetic]

disgusted by Keith to pay your subs.

Not just Keith.

https://undod.cymru/en/2020/07/15/iechyd-meddwl/

[Kelvin]

I agree in principle and want to vote Green at the coming local elections to trigger change in the party, and mine is the sort of ward where if people do that Labour will lose seats (probably to the Tories, but what's the fucking difference any more). But... my local councillors are decent leftists, Momentum members (one of them still uses a Corbyn avatar on Twitter...), and i don't want to weaken what little voice we already have.

I mean I can't disagree with that. If you truly know them to be leftists and you also think they have a decent chance of winning, you should vote for them. Really my point with all this is that we should do whatever is necessary to benefit the left, and therefore the country, longer term.

[BlodwynPig]

You don't have to do anything but be there to vote for the left when necessary, unless you are too poor or disgusted by Keith to pay your subs.

What left? What's left?

[NoSleep]

Is that what you said when Kinnock became leader?

[NoSleep]

Not just Keith.

https://undod.cymru/en/2020/07/15/iechyd-meddwl/

OK. It wasn't clear that you'd written off the party from your earlier post. Seemed more like you were too busy elsewhere.

[BlodwynPig]

Is that what you said when Kinnock became leader?

Is left right?

[Zetetic]

It wasn't clear that you'd written off the party

I don't know that I have, not forever, but it's not just Keith why I think that right now it's not to my benefit or the party's to try to involve myself in it any further.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

I can understand why people don't feel the need to fund, actively support or be a member of Labour right now and I am not going to spend my time (at least past a fairly early point) convincing people to change their minds.

Personally, I believe we need to bolster all sections of the Left to be as strong as possible for the time ahead. As has been said above, there are hundreds of CLPs in Labour who are left wing, 13 million voters voted for a socialist, and yet now shrouded by what Starmer is presenting as 'Labour'. Our numbers on the left are much more significant than we have allowed ourselves to be splintered into. Those CLPs need money, yes, but they mostly need people and time. Every single left wing cause could be accomplished if those favouring it had the time and energy to pursue them. This is partly why I have been championing Universal Basic Income, because if you relieve people of the immediate need to survive and expend all daylight hours working for someone else, they can collectivist and elevate their voice to the status it deserves without fear.

I don't see political membership or funding as an either or choice between Labour and another, but I certainly see that for many financially that isn't the case, and what little funds they have need to be spent on themselves/their families etc.

Whatever causes people choose, they should be tied to increasing democratic accountability (which, for once, I generously include Nationalism, though that is far from a pre-condition), because whatever you want, the more obstacles in the way, the less you are going to get it, and the more inefficient your use of time campaigning will be.

[Johnny Yesno]

The Burgon interview explains just how dogged the left must be in keeping a presence in the Labour Party. It's going to be made even harder for us to gain back the ground, unless people hold onto their membership and learn the lessons. If it wasn't for people like Jeremy Corbyn, who stuck with Labour through Kinnock, Blair, Brown and Miliband, we would never have glimpsed the possibility of a transformative Labour government.

Absolutely. The so-called 'centrists' want the left to get disheartened and leave the party. What's going on in Labour at the moment is akin to the voter suppression that was going on in the US elections. If you think that the answer to voter suppression is to not vote, then the logic of leaving Labour because the so-called 'centrists' are making staying unpleasant is sound.

[idunnosomename]

dont really fancy getting killed. or maybe I do. bring it on babies

[Johnny Yesno]

Also, the green councillors round my way have a poor record when it comes to industrial relations and backing the tories to build expensive white elephants. And their MP had that brainwave of forming a caretaker government of women with Jo Swinson's lib dems rather than backing Corbyn to do it. Good luck with them. I'd rather be in the party that's got Richard Burgon in it.

[greenman]

The votes they took by running in my area handed it to the Tories at the last election, killed any chance of me voting green unless theres a revolution within and an apology for that.

[BlodwynPig]

It's not easy being green