Labour Party - Just about as bad as you can get

[Buelligan]

Not a dig at any specific individuals, but I do find it frustrating that the left as a whole is so incapable of converting this seething anger into something useful, like an actual alternative to Labour. There's so much rightful anger at the cunts doing this, but absolutely no leadership or co-ordination or meaningful solidarity beyond tweets and meetings and shouting at the clouds. I wish that groups like Momentum, or individuals like Corbyn or (Insert High Profile Leftie), would step forward and provide something for us to all get behind. As it stands, we just have nothing but impotent rage, and thousands of small, separate, largely unconnected factions.

I think, for many, the reluctance is borne out of a longstanding love affair with Labour.  Leaving is too hard.  My love affair is with democracy, with socialism and solidarity.  So it's easier for me and many ordinary members like me, I suppose.  People like Corbyn have given their whole lives to the relationship but sometimes, even the love of your life is less important, in reality, than truth and justice.

Surely this is what they want. They're more scared of angry people inside the party than outside.

I can't be bothered to waste my life second-guessing what these cunts want.  We need to end this now.

Need to signal the betrayal we feel.  The conviction that we are not going to wait any longer, a new path, a new democratic voice must rise up now.  This simply cannot continue, it's far bigger than Labour.  Find a new solidarity with honest people.

[Ferris]

Surely this is what they want. They're more scared of angry people inside the party than outside.

Counterpoint - they are pushing the membership as far as they think they can get away with because there's no alternative for left Britain. If they see lots of people leave the party, they may think "oh we might have gone a bit too far here" and wind it back a bit.

Mind you that's a long way from a good solution is it? And it seems like some fairly unpleasant people are pulling the levers at Labour HQ - now they have some power they might not want to stop (regardless of the situation on the ground).

I stopped reading this thread because it made me very sad for the UK, I think I'm going back to that for a little bit. Sorry lads and lasses, hope everyone is ok.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2021/02/the-utterly-useless-keir-starmer/

[thugler]

If they see lots of people leave the party, they may think "oh we might have gone a bit too far here" and wind it back a bit.

Did Blair do that?

[Buelligan]

I stopped reading this thread because it made me very sad for the UK, I think I'm going back to that for a little bit. Sorry lads and lasses, hope everyone is ok.

I'm an expat too and it does make me extremely sad but it also makes me absolutely fucking determined not to let this lie.  It's not just about the UK.  Imagine the impact on the world if Corbyn or similar, was UK PM.

The waves that would have created across this planet, from climate change to social justice, war and peace, hunger and health.  This is the fight, it's not just for the UK but for all of us and we should never, ever, give up.  Absolutely never.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Counterpoint - they are pushing the membership as far as they think they can get away with

It's worse even than that. The project is to bury the left so deep they never have a prayer of even forming a majority on some piddly board, let alone getting representation in Parliament. This is about active marginalisation and sidelining. They want to provoke and then when the backlash comes, they will throw everything at loudly and visibly crushing it, knowing the media will have their back, knowing they have overwhelming control of the message.

This can already been seen by the shameless way Labour are courting big business donors to substitute for the shortfall in union income. They are planning a future that doesn't involve us.

CLPs need to start basically going on strike en masse and divorcing themselves from this party while hitting the ground running with an effective clone of the structure but with the accountability and democratic structure we actually want to see. Real Labour, Labour Without Chains

[Bernice]

Surely this is what they want. They're more scared of angry people inside the party than outside.

The ideal scenario is angry people outside the party disorganised and powerless. Next best thing is angry people inside the party but disempowered. If we can discount the option of angry people inside the party actually able to effect change (and I increasingly think we must discount this), then that leaves the option of an organised and fired up alternative that robs a disdainful and elitist party leadership of its footsoldiers and major source of income.

Which leads to:

Not a dig at any specific individuals, but I do find it frustrating that the left as a whole is so incapable of converting this seething anger into something useful, like an actual alternative to Labour. There's so much rightful anger at the cunts doing this, but absolutely no leadership or co-ordination or meaningful solidarity beyond tweets and meetings and shouting at the clouds. I wish that groups like Momentum, or individuals like Corbyn or (Insert High Profile Leftie), would step forward and provide something for us to all get behind. As it stands, we just have nothing but impotent rage, and thousands of small, separate, largely unconnected factions.

I agree. I don't have a fucking clue how to go about it - I'm fairly new to this, really, only recently started getting involved in my union, renter's union etc. But I'm chomping at the bit. There are frustrated members here with the know-how and the experience to make this happen, I think. Let's fucking do it. Be bold.

[bgmnts]

Not a dig at any specific individuals, but I do find it frustrating that the left as a whole is so incapable of converting this seething anger into something useful, like an actual alternative to Labour.

Presumably you mean just in England? Scotland and Wales have the SNP and Plaid Cymru respectively, who are centre left.

[Buelligan]

The ideal scenario is angry people outside the party disorganised and powerless. Next best thing is angry people inside the party but disempowered. If we can discount the option of angry people inside the party actually able to effect change (and I increasingly think we must discount this), then that leaves the option of an organised and fired up alternative that robs a disdainful and elitist party leadership of its footsoldiers and major source of income.

Which leads to:

I agree. I don't have a fucking clue how to go about it - I'm fairly new to this, really, only recently started getting involved in my union, renter's union etc. But I'm chomping at the bit. There are frustrated members here with the know-how and the experience to make this happen, I think. Let's fucking do it. Be bold.

I absolutely agree.  But how? 

I'm not sure Momentum would be useful, I've never joined, maybe those who've been members could correct me, but I had a feeling that it was diluted, maybe a bit neutered, now.  Hope I'm wrong.

And Corbyn's Peace&Justice body, well, Corbyn could start a new movement at the drop of a hat but I sense he's unwilling.  Maybe because he's still in love or maybe he's biding his time, waiting for the outcome of the court cases and will use that (if he loses) as a launchpad.  I have no idea.

And no idea either of other places to go.  I don't believe joining other extant parties is a way forward for reasons, I'm sure, we can all expand upon.

So how, where? 

[NoSleep]

This will probably end in court (once again).

[thugler]

Have we not covered this 'alternative party' thing to death. Under this electoral system it's suicidal. At worst totally irrelevant and at 'best' simply helps the tories win by a larger margin.

If the membership stays and refuses to take this shit we can still have an influence and we will win. Constantly fighting with the membership is not going to work and he'll go.

[Bernice]

I absolutely agree.  But how? 

I'm not sure Momentum would be useful, I've never joined, maybe those who've been members could correct me, but I had a feeling that it was diluted, maybe a bit neutered, now.  Hope I'm wrong.

And Corbyn's Peace&Justice body, well, Corbyn could start a new movement at the drop of a hat but I sense he's unwilling.  Maybe because he's still in love or maybe he's biding his time, waiting for the outcome of the court cases and will use that (if he loses) as a launchpad.  I have no idea.

And no idea either of other places to go.  I don't believe joining other extant parties is a way forward for reasons, I'm sure, we can all expand upon.

So how, where? 

I think Shoulders is onto something above

CLPs need to start basically going on strike en masse and divorcing themselves from this party while hitting the ground running with an effective clone of the structure but with the accountability and democratic structure we actually want to see. Real Labour, Labour Without Chains

There are enough pissed off CLPs, and in an age of hyper-connection, you have a ready architecture for organisation in place.

Presumably you mean just in England? Scotland and Wales have the SNP and Plaid Cymru respectively, who are centre left.

Chinny reckon on the SNP there.

[Ferris]

I'm an expat too and it does make me extremely sad but it also makes me absolutely fucking determined not to let this lie.  It's not just about the UK.  Imagine the impact on the world if Corbyn or similar, was UK PM.

The waves that would have created across this planet, from climate change to social justice, war and peace, hunger and health.  This is the fight, it's not just for the UK but for all of us and we should never, ever, give up.  Absolutely never.

Fair enough. I get struck off the voter roll next year because I haven't lived in the UK for however long it is. The end of old "Two Votes" Ferris. At that point, there's really very little I can do about the UK and feeling sad about it won't change that.

[Bernice]

Have we not covered this 'alternative party' thing to death. Under this electoral system it's suicidal. At worst totally irrelevant and at 'best' simply helps the tories win by a larger margin.

Consign yourself to the dustbin then. Seriously, if the plan is to wait around until the left is magically gifted control of the party machinery then what is the fucking point?

[Buelligan]

CLPs need to start basically going on strike en masse and divorcing themselves from this party while hitting the ground running with an effective clone of the structure but with the accountability and democratic structure we actually want to see. Real Labour, Labour Without Chains

Missed this - was it an edit?  I agree.  Don't think it's likely but nevertheless, agree. 

I know it's mad but I think there's a reluctance to actively do anything that could get you suspended or whatever, if you're a party official or similar.  Is there any value in starting some sort of hashtag type FBPE-type thing, just to increase the size of people's balls, a solidarity-building thing?

[NoSleep]

Actually, what should happen is that one of the candidates scratched should stand as an independent against whoever they get to represent Labour, as Ken Livingstone did in London.

[Buelligan]

Fair enough. I get struck off the voter roll next year because I haven't lived in the UK for however long it is. The end of old "Two Votes" Ferris. At that point, there's really very little I can do about the UK and feeling sad about it won't change that.

Voting's not the whole story though, is it.  You have a beautiful voice Ferris, use it.

[Bernice]

I always imagined Ferris to have a honking, nerdy rasp.

[EOLAN]

Have we not covered this 'alternative party' thing to death. Under this electoral system it's suicidal. At worst totally irrelevant and at 'best' simply helps the tories win by a larger margin.

If the membership stays and refuses to take this shit we can still have an influence and we will win. Constantly fighting with the membership is not going to work and he'll go.

Nationally probably. Although Liverpool could be one region where a viable left wing alternative could be targeted to be competitive at the mayoral elections and locally.

[Ferris]

Voting's not the whole story though, is it.  You have a beautiful voice Ferris, use it.

I have a mid-timbre, sarcastic voice that I can't bear to listen to. Add in the mid Atlantic accent and it's a disaster.

Don't know why people voluntarily talk to me but that's people innit? Takes all sorts.

[NoSleep]

I have a mid-timbre, sarcastic voice that I can't bear to listen to. Add in the mid Atlantic accent and it's a disaster.

Don't know why people voluntarily talk to me but that's people innit? Takes all sorts.

Couldn't understand a word on Saturday. But that might have been because you were trying to talk while hogging all the bandwidth with your xbox.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Actually, what should happen is that one of the candidates scratched should stand as an independent against whoever they get to represent Labour, as Ken Livingstone did in London.

Well yes, and this. Are they as big a figure though, would be difficult.

[Buelligan]

Actually, what should happen is that one of the candidates scratched should stand as an independent against whoever they get to represent Labour, as Ken Livingstone did in London.

In Liverpool, that would be Rothery who, I don't think is at the end of her political ambition - as Livingstone probably was.  She'd or any other candidate, would have to give up any hope of ever standing for Labour.  For someone truly dedicated, the good they could do would have to outweigh the good they might do if they continued to toe the line.  IMO, in this scenario, it would have to mean acceptance that Labour is over.  I'm beginning to believe it is but it's a very big brain change.

I always imagined Ferris to have a honking, nerdy rasp.

He does, I was just trying to be nice.

[Absorb the anus burn]

I hope Rothery stands as a left wing independent and steals it!

[thugler]

Consign yourself to the dustbin then. Seriously, if the plan is to wait around until the left is magically gifted control of the party machinery then what is the fucking point?

How have I suggested 'waiting around'. The membership has power and is organised right now and can influence things. I would wager this is far more likely to work in our lifetimes than an alt party. We should demand a change to the electoral system as a core policy. I should remind you that Corbyn was leader very recently and there was no magical gifting involved, people voted for him because of his policies. Many of those are still in the party and have the same views.

No explanation of how your fantasy alt party thing will work in reality. Fortunately we have examples of how it goes under this electoral system.

[Buelligan]

How have I suggested 'waiting around'. The membership has power and is organised right now and can influence things. I would wager this is far more likely to work in our lifetimes than an alt party. We should demand a change to the electoral system as a core policy. I should remind you that Corbyn was leader very recently and there was no magical gifting involved, people voted for him because of his policies. Many of those are still in the party and have the same views.

No explanation of how your fantasy alt party thing will work in reality. Fortunately we have examples of how it goes under this electoral system.

If the members really could change things, I'd recommend that they all got together in their CLPs and put forward statements that said they were completely fucked off with this Liverpool thing, with the Bristol/South-West bollocks, with Corbyn's whip suspension and all the other undemocratic summary suspensions that have been happening.  They'd demand that Evans goes, Starmer too.  They hold and pass a vote of no confidence in any MP who did not support them.

But they're not even allowed to have meetings and if they talk about these things, they're suspended.

They're not even allowed to select or vote for their own candidates.

They're not allowed to discuss or organise.

They're only allowed to pay up and shut up.

[Absorb the anus burn]

The membership has power and is organised right now and can influence things.

Members power is being taken away on a day by day basis.

- If a CLP declares solidarity with Corbyn they get suspended.
- Online meetings and votes are thrown into chaos if the PLP don't get their way.
- Popular left wing candidates are removed from shortlists in favour of the centre right.

[BlodwynPig]

Agree with you on this, so impressed with McD. But while Walker gets a lot of stick I think he's really important to the show, he is willing to play devils advocate and consider the most charitable position in these things and to be convinced either way. It's good that the show isn't just a panel of people all having exactly the same opinion on everything all the time.

The Thugler of Novara Media

[Buelligan]

Members power is being taken away on a day by day basis.

- If a CLP declares solidarity with Corbyn they get suspended.
- Online meetings and votes are thrown into chaos if the PLP don't get their way.
- Popular left wing candidates are removed from shortlists in favour of the centre right.

Of course, that's the way forward.  They should all (nearly all) declare solidarity with Corbyn.

That would put these cunts in a pretty pickle.

[Bernice]

How have I suggested 'waiting around'. The membership has power and is organised right now and can influence things. I would wager this is far more likely to work in our lifetimes than an alt party. We should demand a change to the electoral system as a core policy. I should remind you that Corbyn was leader very recently and there was no magical gifting involved, people voted for him because of his policies. Many of those are still in the party and have the same views.

No explanation of how your fantasy alt party thing will work in reality. Fortunately we have examples of how it goes under this electoral system.

And what's the track record of your chosen strategy? It is increasingly apparent that the membership can influence jack shit. Corbyn was shafted internally from day one. Before him and after him, vast seas of beige managerialism. He was an accident and one that will not be repeated. If it looks like the membership might vote left again, the rules will change. 

I don't think any party other than the Tories is going to be able to win an outright majority in the commons in the next decade at least. Organise locally, take CLPs, mayoralties. If you can win over some Labour MPs, so much the better. It's a longer game, but the alternative is championing the lesser of two evils until raising tides claim this fucking island and dinosaurs reign supreme once more.