Labour Party - Just about as bad as you can get

[BlodwynPig]

This can't be fixed from within the Westminster parliamentary system: stay in the Labour Party, leave the Labour Party, do what you want. None of it will make any significant difference. We're a one-party managed democracy now.

Don't give up. We are now fighting a hostile occupying force. Alter your strategies.

Can you fire over that strategy document I asked for by 5pm? Cheers, Wülfman1999

[Paul Calf]

I wonder what all these freshly-minted New Tory sons of service economy toil in the purple wall will make of the Singaporean model (which our government has openly expressed admiration and a desire to mimic) would make of the fact that the non-Chinese population of Singapore is almost entirely made up of cheap migrant labour, whose population is three-quarters ethnic Chinese and there's hardly such a thing as an ethnic Singaporean any more?

By the time they cotton on, it'll be too late anyway. If there is hope, it does not lie in the proles. Winston.

[NoSleep]

I know that you mean well but have you thought about what that means?  How do you really believe the Labour Party can get into government?  What has Starmer done since his election that has made you believe the chance of Labour forming a government is good, that anything he's done is improving things?  What have you seen, something the members have achieved since his election, that leads you to believe remaining in is getting the left anywhere?

What have you seen that means "it is already all over, give up trying; give up." As Kelvin says, it's only been a short time, and their project to destroy the party doesn't seem to have grown legs (nor is it being led proficiently). Fair enough if you can't afford to stay in the party, but I can AND support the fights against their poison that are going on. You must think John McDonnell a pathetic figure for staying with the Labour Party through thick and thin.

[thugler]

What have you seen that means "it is already all over, give up trying; give up." As Kelvin says, it's only been a short time, and their project to destroy the party doesn't seem to have grown legs (nor is it being led proficiently). Fair enough if you can't afford to stay in the party, but I can AND support the fights against their poison that are going on. You must think John McDonnell a pathetic figure for staying with the Labour Party through thick and thin.

And Corbyn too stayed through worse than this, he understands it's the only game in town.

Certain people on here seem to simultaneously believe (rightly) that we were very close to a Corbyn led government in 2017, and also that all hope and possibility of this happening again via the Labour party is gone already.

[Buelligan]

What have you seen that means "it is already all over, give up trying; give up." As Kelvin says, it's only been a short time, and their project to destroy the party doesn't seem to have grown legs (nor is it being led proficiently). Fair enough if you can't afford to stay in the party, but I can AND support the fights against their poison that are going on. You must think John McDonnell a pathetic figure for staying with the Labour Party through thick and thin.

I don't think John McDonnell is a pathetic figure, I love him but I don't think he's perfect either.  Same with Corbs.  He's made mistakes, he's human, he's also done this already one time, so he has that in his nature and habit.  But I'm watching and I see it took him his whole life and ended in failure.  Heroic but that butters no parsnips for the kids whose mums queue in foodbanks.  Or the kids standing under missile strikes in Yemen and elsewhere.

And why did it end in failure?  It's because we tolerated these people, the masters and minions of Starmer, and they intentionally created that failure.  There's nothing in itself wrong with waiting, except this thing is urgent, but there's something very wrong with seeing a failure, seeing the reason for that failure and then choosing to repeat that same cycle whilst doing nothing about those reasons we failed on the last attempt.  That is pathetic.  Worse, it's destined to fail again.  Obviously.

We are not idiots.  We are not destined to repeat the same choices for all time because we have the wit, the courage, to try something different.  And we must do that, IMO, for all the people with no choice who need, desperately, urgently, need our help and solidarity. 

My argument is not simply leave Labour.  My argument is do whatever can be done to rid ourselves of these people because, under Corbyn, we tolerated them and they intentionally destroyed the hope and the chances of all of us.  That must be the last time.  If we continue to accept this, we are complicit too.  So, whatever that takes, leaving, staying, we must do it.

And when I asked what have members achieved since Starmer was elected that gives us hope, why was I asking it?  Because every one of us needs to think about our personal decisions, our strategy, how successful it actually is.  Our business is not to glorify and empower the Labour Party, the Labour Party is the means, it's to save, protect, empower, elevate, ordinary people worldwide, that's surely our duty and our goal.  We need to look at that, in all its urgency and importance and decide if we can continue to fund and support these destructive malicious people who are, IMO, intentioally preventing that goal being realised.

[NoSleep]

There's not anything in your argument that one could put a finger on; it's all rather vague.

Every person that leaves the party makes it harder to fight them. They want us all to leave the party. I'd say to everyone who has left that they should rejoin.

[Paul Calf]

The Labour Party is not an adequate vehicle to deploy against autocrats. Playing the long game realistically means another seven years of the most vicious right-wing authoritarians in this country's democratic history, who are nor averse to breaking rules and destroying conventions and institutions to ensure unchallenged power. Three years of unassailable majority, relying on the conscience of Tory MPs specifically chosen for their arse-licking loyalty to the executive to break that majority, is enough to ensure another four years. Another four years is enough to ensure that the Tory party - or their ideological descendents - stay in power indefinitely.

You are wasting your energy if you think that channeling it through the Labour Party is going to make any difference whatsoever.

I'll say it again: this is occupation by a hostile force. Stop painting the bikeshed.

[thugler]

The Labour Party is not an adequate vehicle to deploy against autocrats. Playing the long game realistically means another seven years of the most vicious right-wing authoritarians in this country's democratic history, who are nor averse to breaking rules and destroying conventions and institutions to ensure unchallenged power. Three years of unassailable majority, relying on the conscience of Tory MPs specifically chosen for their arse-licking loyalty to the executive to break that majority, is enough to ensure another four years. Another four years is enough to ensure that the Tory party - or their ideological descendents - stay in power indefinitely.

You are wasting your energy if you think that channeling it through the Labour Party is going to make any difference whatsoever.

I'll say it again: this is occupation by a hostile force. Stop painting the bikeshed.

What is your timeline for a new party to get any kind of foothold? less than 4 years?

We were close to getting a left wing Labour government very recently, so it's not remotely impossible.

[Buelligan]

There's not anything in your argument that one could put a finger on; it's all rather vague.

Every person that leaves the party makes it harder to fight them. They want us all to leave the party. I'd say to everyone who has left that they should rejoin.

I don't mean to be vague.  Putting that aside, because I'm not sure how to address it, it's rather vague!  I understand that everyone that leaves makes it harder to fight them but we also need to refine that simple truth.  How are we fighting them?  Are we winning?  Even when we had Party democracy and membership at its zenith (under Corbyn) were we winning?  We weren't, because we continued to let these people off the hook. 

So we need to think about our tactics.  That doesn't necessarily mean people must leave - although there is an argument that many people support Starmer (and by doing so, enable these antisocialists to hold power) because they believe he's popular and electable.  I'm mostly talking about voters, not necessarily members, just ordinary people who don't get too involved in politics but want change for the better.  Keeping membership levels high allows Starmer to fool them into believing he's running the Party well and has a lot of backing.  And even the unions are withdrawing funding, that says something to me about how they see the way forward.

The idea of staying has appeal but is it working?  My own view is that all righteous members and CLPs should force them to suspend us.  All of us.  That's solidarity.  A democratic voice.  I don't see it happening though.  I'm not sure the membership have the balls any more.

[Paul Calf]

What is your timeline for a new party to get any kind of foothold? less than 4 years?

This can't be fixed from within the Westminster parliamentary system: stay in the Labour Party, leave the Labour Party, do what you want. None of it will make any significant difference. We're a one-party managed democracy now.

Don't give up. We are now fighting a hostile occupying force. Alter your strategies.

We were close to getting a left wing Labour government very recently, so it's not remotely impossible.

That will NEVER happen again without major systemic change. We'll never even see the possibility again without major systemic change.

[NoSleep]

The Labour Party is not an adequate vehicle to deploy against autocrats. Playing the long game realistically means another seven years of the most vicious right-wing authoritarians in this country's democratic history, who are nor averse to breaking rules and destroying conventions and institutions to ensure unchallenged power. Three years of unassailable majority, relying on the conscience of Tory MPs specifically chosen for their arse-licking loyalty to the executive to break that majority, is enough to ensure another four years. Another four years is enough to ensure that the Tory party - or their ideological descendents - stay in power indefinitely.

You are wasting your energy if you think that channeling it through the Labour Party is going to make any difference whatsoever.

I'll say it again: this is occupation by a hostile force. Stop painting the bikeshed.

So you're actually saying just give up and die.

[Paul Calf]

So you're actually saying just give up and die.

No, I'm saying stop projecting your lack of imagination on others and stop fighting the last war. Before we can know how to fight this, we must understand how fundamentally everything has changed.

[NoSleep]

It's not lack of imagination, it's about actual concrete possibilities of changing things for the better. Your appetite for doom and gloom knows no bound, and your own "imagination" wallows only in that. How about some positives from that imagination of yours for once?

[Paul Calf]

On the contrary, I'm full of optimism at the realisation that I've woken up in 1995 and am consequently 26 years younger.

[NoSleep]

There it is again.

[Paul Calf]

You want me to share your delusion that parliamentary politics is still an effective vehicle to change the lives of people for the better. I can't and it isn't. That is all.

[Trichomania]

Proportional representation will just mean tory government forever. Sometimes tory government in coalition with the far right, sometimes tory government in coalition with the lib dems / blairites when the country's feeling progressive.

[thugler]

That will NEVER happen again without major systemic change. We'll never even see the possibility again without major systemic change.

How are you going to get major systemic change without a Labour government? You're not. Electoral reform could bring major systemic change eventually.

Proportional representation will just mean tory government forever. Sometimes tory government in coalition with the far right, sometimes tory government in coalition with the lib dems / blairites when the country's feeling progressive.

You're missing the point. It's not 'let's get electoral reform so we can always win'. It's so that we can allow the major political parties to split and have a genuine left Labour party and a centrist Labour party who can both exist without dooming the country to endless Tories. The tories would likely split off as well for that matter. It would mean coalition being the standard form of government. There is no electoral system which would make British people less conservative unfortunately.

[thugler]

You want me to share your delusion that parliamentary politics is still an effective vehicle to change the lives of people for the better. I can't and it isn't. That is all.

I think it's a bit rich to suggest that nothing has been achieved to improve the lives of people via parliamentary politics. I even think it's hard to claim that no substantive difference is made to working people's lives even from a crap Labour government compared to a Tory one.

Even so, however bad it is there isn't a more effective alternative, and I don't think you're even proposing one so this is very sixth form stuff.

[Buelligan]

Don't forget, you were the one backing Starmer.  Bit rich to lecture anyone about the way forward or sixth form politics.

I'm sorry to be personal but you're being personal, so, you know. 

[Paul Calf]

I think it's a bit rich to suggest that nothing has been achieved to improve the lives of people via parliamentary politics. I even think it's hard to claim that no substantive difference is made to working people's lives even from a crap Labour government compared to a Tory one.

Even so, however bad it is there isn't a more effective alternative, and I don't think you're even proposing one so this is very sixth form stuff.

Stop talking in the past tense and look at what is happening now.

Fuck's sake...if you accept that democracy is no longer functioning in England (at least) then the solutions you propose might be better ones.

[holyzombiejesus]

Why are the likes of John McDonnell and Len McCluskey pleading with left-leaning members not to leave if the party's such a busted flush?

[Buelligan]

Speaking from my own perspective, and it is just mine, as I said earlier, they did it before so it's in their nature and habitude.  But they are wise old fellows, I'm sure they must have looked at what the red tories have done to all that hope and work of ours and reflected.  I hope they have a plan.  They must have.  But it would be good if they gave us more. 

I can't help remembering those times when we could have pushed harder to oust the active enemies that were briefing against us.  That were hunting trots and throwing elections.  And we decided to leave them, let them continue.  These were huge mistakes.  Huge.

So I hope they have read things right, I hope they've adjusted their strategies but I can't be sure and it galls me worse than some fucking bitter gall in the bible to swallow any more of this shit from Starmer and his pals.

[thugler]

Stop talking in the past tense and look at what is happening now.

Fuck's sake...if you accept that democracy is no longer functioning in England (at least) then the solutions you propose might be better ones.

The only solutions to this are by gaining political power by whatever means. Giving up and complaining that it's just not fair and so we shouldn't even try isn't going to make any difference. I think 'democracy is no longer functioning' is a bit of hyperbole really. We were not that far away from gaining power so it's not impossible for it to happen. Solutions that don't involve influencing the policies of the Labour party, and them winning an election are fantasy I'm afraid.

The problem of the media being incredibly biased can only be solved by proper regulation, made possible by... getting into power. And so on for all the rest that subverts democracy. Of course it's incredibly difficult, they made it this way. But we can, have and will change things too.

[jobotic]

The first thing you want to do if you want to get into power is get rid of Starmer, who, whether deliberately or not, is putting an end to The Labour Party as any kind of serious political force. But I'm not staying to help.

[Zetetic]

The only solutions to this are by gaining political power by whatever means.

Is gaining political power only possible via the Palace of Westminster?



One of the other lessons of the pandemic should be about the nature of the English Civil Service[nb]Taken broadly, to include QUANGOs like NHS England & Improvement, CQC, etc.[/nb]. Matt Hancock doesn't have dials on his desk that he turned to "racist" and "corrupt" on day one.

[Johnny Yesno]

Why are the likes of John McDonnell and Len McCluskey pleading with left-leaning members not to leave if the party's such a busted flush?

Exactly.

[Johnny Yesno]

Whoever it was who insulted me a few pages for daring to suggest that Labour might not be worth giving money to, I'd love to hear your opinion on this.

If you're asking who it was that pulled you up for being snarky to someone who was imploring the left to stay in the party, then that was me.

My answer is this: we lost our branch EC to the starmtroopers yesterday evening because too few lefties turned up to the AGM. That's where LEAVE MEANS LEAVE gets us, lexiter.

Fuck off, I'm not joining the SWP.

[NoSleep]

You want me to share your delusion that parliamentary politics is still an effective vehicle to change the lives of people for the better. I can't and it isn't. That is all.

No, I'd rather you share your "imaginative" alternative strategies as we are so sadly behind you in this area. But you only seem happy to spread your message of total doom.

[bgmnts]

What actually has to happen for left wing people remaining in the Labour to finally get out?