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Millwall fans boo anti-racism

Started by Retinend, December 05, 2020, 06:23:37 PM

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finnquark

Did a dissertation comparing the nature of far-right support amongst hooligans in the UK and Italy, during which I watched a lot of footage of the Millwall boys.

This 1977 Panorama is interesting - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wko197t1zEc

The guy introduced around 9 minutes sums it all up.

Lisa Jesusandmarychain

Quote from: chveik on December 05, 2020, 11:35:04 PM
I'd expect there aren't that many racist supporters abusing players of their own teams.

apart from those legends

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/world/zenit-st-petersburg-malcom-signing-barcelona-banner-protest-a9039761.html

" We are not racist, we just don't like darkies playing for our team."

Buelligan

Quote from: Menu on December 05, 2020, 10:43:34 PM
I was genuinely surprised by that as he has defended football hooligans and Millwall fans unforgivable behaviour before. It's a real blind spot for him. There was a stabbing after the FA Cup game against Everton a couple of seasons ago and he wouldn't condemn it. Just said it always happens. He worships his dead dad though - every story about whom has an undercurrent of violence or just straight-out stories of him thumping people. Very very odd and creepy.

It's also slightly odd, if not, creepy, to keep making excuses for him. 

Is he of below average intelligence?  Does he lead a cloistered life where these issues, like the extremist attitudes and allegiances of many Millwall fans and their expression of those positions through physical behaviour, have never impinged on his existence?  I don't think either of those things is true.  And he is an old cunt, so it's not like he's new to all of this.  And yet he keeps making excuses and people keep excusing him.  Why?


Racist tweet

jobotic

Quote from: idunnosomename on December 06, 2020, 12:56:50 AM
sensible cow site man weighs in



ah yes. hmm. good point. *shits pants and eats it*

A point repeated by George Eustice this morning.

This people aren't cranks on twitter. They run the country.

Buelligan

Paul Embery's an absolute cunt.  I won't link to anything he's written because I don't want to give that snake anything at all.  He's a dreadful man, parasitising the union movement.  I cannot express the disgust I feel for him.

idunnosomename

Blue Labour: if you don't let people be racist you hate the working class and will never win power.

That's yer lot i think

jobotic

As told to them by Laurence Fox, Spiked and all the other far-right filth. Not to mention the Tory party.

And they lap it up and purge the party of antiracists. And still those Millwall supporters will never vote for them. And neither will the people they despise.

Albert Soviets

Quote from: Buelligan on December 06, 2020, 11:17:17 AM
Paul Embery's an absolute cunt.  I won't link to anything he's written because I don't want to give that snake anything at all.  He's a dreadful man, parasitising the union movement.  I cannot express the disgust I feel for him.

He's not just any old absolute cunt, he's a patronising cunt as well. Every time I read something he's written, I am reminded that *I* am working class and utterly resent being told what I should think and behave by some random prick who gets paid to write bollocks while I actually have to work. I suppose I'm the wrong sort of working class for him.

Buelligan

Gah, absolutely.  I know I'm laid off at the moment because of the pandemic, BUT normally my life is pretty grinding, really pretty hard in terms of the western world, and I get bugger-all money for it, I barely scrape by.  And when some cunt like that starts lecturing me on what the working class believe.  Fuck me, as jobotic said above, he is like Laurence Fox.  Their take on the working class like Baddiel in blackface pontificating on ital.

I don't need some well-paid management lickspittle telling me how to be who I am, I live it. 

jobotic

Remember also the footballers in the centre circle aren't working class. Neither are the people living and working round the ground that the proper working class Millwall fans hate.


gib

Quote from: Paul Calf on December 06, 2020, 07:34:44 AM
I'm genuinely impressed that you were an extra in that film. I really like it although some of the football culture stuff - including that chant - is embarrassingly nerdy, clunky and exactly what a middle class TV producer would think a football chant might sound like.

See also: the toe-curling Chant Laureate shite.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3702313.stm

TV has never really been able to capture the spontaneity, wit and casual violence of the football terraces.

It's miles better than Charlie bladdy 'Unnins Green Street though.

QuoteMr Motion told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "What we were looking for was wit, humour, energy, inventiveness, and the ability to be taken up by the people on the terraces.

"Jonny is absolutely wonderful at it. He stood out head and shoulders above the others."

Mr Hurst, a self-employed solicitor, will as Chant Laureate earn twice the amount paid to the Poet Laureate.

haha fucking hell

bgmnts

Quote from: DrGreggles on December 06, 2020, 01:03:45 AM
And they didn't throw bananas because they are racist. They threw them because they were concerned about the lack of fibre in the black players' diets.

Those Chelsea fans didn't kick that black man off the train because he was black, they were worried about the congestion.

GMTV

Quote from: kngen on December 06, 2020, 04:57:47 AM
Chelsea were bad, but I've never seen such a bunch of scummy cunts as the Millwall were - and I've lived in Glasgow surrounded by Rangers fans as a fenian.

Probably more racism in the east end of Glasgow than anywhere else. Certainly historically was a strong monoculture in that part of the city.

'Rangers' are more sectarian than 'celtic'. 'celtic' probably slightly more racist than 'Rangers'. If both those isms are weighted equally then that would indicate 'Rangers' are slightly worse overall.

druss

Incredible that this can happen amongst the paragons of righteousness at Millwall.

idunnosomename

What's the answer, ban all sport? In this reporter's opinion... yes!

imitationleather

My mum's fella supports Millwall and he is literally a lifelong communist. I'd ring them to see what he makes of it but we all know what a 'mare ringing your parents is.

chveik

clubs can get rid of the vocally racists supporters if they really want to. worked in other countries


Kankurette

Because of course they fucking did.

G-d I hate Millwall fans. They are the worst. I saw them play Sheffield United a few years ago (long story) and Bramall Lane's away end had to be cordoned off and there was a massive police presence at Sheffield station, and of course they ran on the pitch when Millwall equalised. I always wonder how the fans treat their black players (ETA: someone answered that). They had a black goalie called Jordan Archer who I thought was quite good.
Quote from: imitationleather on December 06, 2020, 02:23:49 PM
My mum's fella supports Millwall and he is literally a lifelong communist. I'd ring them to see what he makes of it but we all know what a 'mare ringing your parents is.
A rare beast. My stepdad is a left-wing Chelsea fan.

ETA: I just remembered that back in the '90s, one of their fans ran on the pitch during a cup match with Wednesday and threatened to murder their goalie who, tbf, was not remotely arsed.

Kankurette

Quote from: idunnosomename on December 06, 2020, 12:56:50 AM
sensible cow site man weighs in



ah yes. hmm. good point. *shits pants and eats it*
Of course Paul Embery is defending them, of course he is, because racism is the Working-Class Way and being upset about it is Identity Politics.

jobotic

Black people can't be working class and white working class people can only ever aspire to be EDL cunts, useful foot troops for those that really matter.

idunnosomename

found a picture of Paul Embery smiling, and imo it's scarier than his usual mug when he just acts like a frowny cunt. he looks less evil with his usual grumpy face.


Captain Z

Paul Embery is actually a far left Marxist terrorist cell, it's true you can look this up on YouTube and Facebook.

Jittlebags

It would not be remiss of me for stating that George Eustice is also a cunt for enabling people who harbour racist beliefs ranging from pub landladies who won't shake a black man's hand (and I've met one) to full on fucking Nazis, to get away with their filth.

Menu

Quote from: Buelligan on December 06, 2020, 10:59:01 AM
It's also slightly odd, if not, creepy, to keep making excuses for him. 

Is he of below average intelligence?  Does he lead a cloistered life where these issues, like the extremist attitudes and allegiances of many Millwall fans and their expression of those positions through physical behaviour, have never impinged on his existence?  I don't think either of those things is true.  And he is an old cunt, so it's not like he's new to all of this.  And yet he keeps making excuses and people keep excusing him.  Why?


Racist tweet

To be fair to him, he did condemn the Millwall fans who did the booing. To be unfair to him, that's the first time I've ever heard him condemn them for anything.

That monkey thing is a comic theme he's had for ages, as far back as I've been aware of him. He didn't know Meghan was black. Neither did my dad, fwiw. I don't think I would have done either unless a friend hadn't sent me a lifesize cardboard cut-out of her as a joke cos I'm so anti-Royal Family. But, as I've stated on other threads, I've got less and less time for him these days, and I can understand why people like yourself could come to the conclusion you have.

Menu

Can I make a bit of a nuanced point on this without leaving myself open to attack? It's a point I've made on the Football thread as well. I'm 100% against what the Millwall fans did. I thought it was shameful. I'm 100% antiracist. I'm 100% against the racist police in America and all their fucking disgusting thuggery - and 100% on the side of the campaigners over there who want them put in prison, and for the police service there to be completely reformed.

But I'm also 100% against American cultural imperialism....

...which leads me to......

Why exactly have the players in English football been asked for months now to 'take a knee' before every English football match? The issue was borne of a series of absolutely shocking events in America which horrified anyone, with basic humanity, who saw them. These events spoke to an institutionalised racism in America that has been there from it's birth as a country, and which a shocking number of people in that country seem to have a blind spot to (including their arsehole President and many in his party).

But, for all our problems, and we have many, that doesn't really apply to our country. God knows, minorities in this country have had to fight and struggle to get any progress at all, but you wouldn't say that the racism endemic in America is just as endemic here. It still exists, of course - we saw that on Saturday. But it's not at the same level and it doesn't manifest itself in the same way.  So why were our players supposed to act as if it does. I totally understood the first week they did it - not least because it coincided with Britain having a conversation about our current and historic racism issues. I was glad we had that conversation and was glad that it helped to expose the murderous and immoral British Empire. I also supported it carrying on till the end of the season. I thought that made sense and showed necessary solidarity.

But why are they still doing it now? Is it to go on forever? That worries me because it's a protest designed for an American audience(that is, 'taking a knee' is not a 'thing' in our country. It was established by very brave NFL players over there who could no longer countenance standing for an American national anthem that they saw as criminally hypocritical. I supported those men in doing that and respected their immense courage). But we don't have a national anthem before every fucking game so have no need to 'take a knee' during it. It's just not a thing here, so why are we pretending it is?

It's a protest designed for an American audience against - specifically - the violent institutionalised racism of America. So, again, why are we still doing it here?

Isn't this just another example of American cultural imperialism? That, whatever the most important thing happening in America must also be the most important thing happening in Britain too. I find that hard to stomach.

Particularly as, if we really are going to institutionalise a protest at sporting events here, why couldn't we do it about the shocking number of food banks in every community in Britain, or in tribute to the innocent victims of this Government's woeful action on Covid, or something else that might actually  really mean something to people of our country rather than the people of the USA.

Frankly I wouldn't lose any sleep if EPL players were asked to take a knee before every match for ever. I mean, what the fuck does it matter? But I do find it very odd. And it's something that's bothered me for a few weeks now. I hope I haven't fucked up the explanation, I sincerely apologise if I have. I genuinely hope you at least get what I'm trying to say though.


Famous Mortimer

One could see it as an attempt to rob the initial gesture of any power it had by just turning it into a thing people do to show how anti-racist they are, while not necessarily taking any action to fight racism. That even the least symbol of not being racist was too much for a certain group of people is quite telling, though.

The fact it happened initially in America and we aren't copying any other country's anti-racist symbols (which may not even exist, but we wouldn't know about them even if they were because stuff that happens in America always gets reported more) agrees with the point you were making, though.

Menu

Quote from: Famous Mortimer on December 07, 2020, 04:40:27 AM
One could see it as an attempt to rob the initial gesture of any power it had by just turning it into a thing people do to show how anti-racist they are, while not necessarily taking any action to fight racism.


Yes, I meant to make that point myself. But you made it better so I'm glad I didn't.

Menu

Quote from: Famous Mortimer on December 07, 2020, 04:40:27 AM


The fact it happened initially in America and we aren't copying any other country's anti-racist symbols (which may not even exist, but we wouldn't know about them even if they were because stuff that happens in America always gets reported more) agrees with the point you were making, though.

I'm glad you said that, FM. I was beginning to regret posting it. Thank you.

Buelligan

Because that's what's really important isn't it?  I mean, we know that racism is rampant in the UK, Europe, it's not something confined to the US or any other country[nb]In fact, racism and sectarianism in sport are far worse in the UK and Europe than they are in the US[/nb] and peoples' lives are destroyed by it, they are literally murdered because of it but what's really important is that people in the UK never bow to anything that could smack of cultural imperialism.  Please.  I don't see anyone protesting that whilst they slip into their jeans and trainers or sip their lattes or march around southern Spain and elsewhere in Europe, demanding proper food.  It's only really a problem when it comes to putting up a new mosque or having Diwali cards in Tesco.

If you get your knickers, even somewhat, in a twist about signs of international solidarity against evil, it says far more about you than it does about anyone else.  And it was/is demonstrably needed, the reaction of the Millwall fans displayed that, a very ugly aspect of British culture.  Or is that not "ours"?

Menu

Quote from: Buelligan on December 07, 2020, 06:14:53 AM
it's not something confined to the US or any other country



Well, I did say that. My objection is it's taking an American protest, in an American manner about an American issue. If we'd somehow found a way of talking about the British Empire or something with immediate political urgency here like child poverty in the UK I would find it more logical and therefore far more likely to have a progressive outcome, eg Marcus Rashford's recent interventions actually impacted on Government policy.

What effect is this 'taking a knee' actually having now? I sense it's become so banal it's unfortunately become counter-productive, as we saw on Saturday. It's now an example of lazy symbolism trumping a chance to effect real necessary change in this country. Let's come up with something that might resonate more with people in this country.