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queer/trans comrades thread

Started by GoblinAhFuckScary, December 13, 2020, 07:07:40 AM

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jamiefairlie

Quote from: Sin Agog on December 13, 2020, 07:32:01 PM
Something tells me goblin here won't have her anxiety cleared up any by this thread devolving into the same desultory prodding of hypothetical MMA fighters/bladder-emptiers.  Which brings up the more important question: if your brain immediately focuses on this trifling shite, rather than the feelings of actually affected and vulnerable people and how easy it is to facilitate them...why is that? 
Spoiler alert
Transphobia
[close]
.

Fair point, I shall cease and desist immediately.

GoblinAhFuckScary

Quote from: Sin Agog on December 13, 2020, 07:32:01 PM
Something tells me goblin here won't have her anxiety cleared up any by this thread devolving into the same desultory prodding of hypothetical MMA fighters/bladder-emptiers.  Which brings up the more important question: if your brain immediately focuses on this trifling shite, rather than the feelings of actually affected and vulnerable people and how easy it is to facilitate them...why is that? 
Spoiler alert
Transphobia
[close]
.

This 1000000%.

Having a very less than ideal day and I wish I felt able to involve myself in the thread atm but I'm v grateful for all you lovelies and I'll chat when I'm feeling a little bit less like I have rattlesnakes for veins and hookworms for brain matter xxx

Bernice


Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: JaDanketies on December 13, 2020, 07:35:12 PM
I don't want to sound like Graham Linehan here, but I think this "when auditioning actors to play the part of a trans woman character, you should only hire a trans woman" is wrong-headed. Instead:


  • Hire the best person for the part
  • Consider trans women to play the roles of cis women

This sounds reasonable at a surface level, maybe, but I've heard grim stuff about casting agents dismissing transwomen for transwomen roles for being 'not convincing enough' i.e. they look too feminine.

@goblin sorry this is descending into the usual hoary debates.

Kankurette

Quote from: Mister Six on December 13, 2020, 05:03:36 PM
Big love from me and Mrs Six to all of CaB's trans posters. I know there are a lot of cunts out there but I have heart that this will pass.

Yeah, and I think it's worth remembering that all of this has happened in a tiny timeframe. Transpeople were basically unheard and unseen in popular culture for the most part until Orange Is the New Black premiered seven years ago, and Transparent a year later.

Just two or three years on from that, Laverne Cox of OITNB was appearing on talk shows all over the shop and trans awareness was flooding through into the mainstream discourse - broadly with the support of the creative media (if not the worthless pundit class).

What we're seeing now is a sharp knee-jerk pushback from a lot of older entitled sorts who (a) were always awful on this subject but didn't think they had to be vocal about it because they assumed everyone agreed with their awful cunt opinions, or (b) have just woken up from a mid-90s caviar and champers coma and realised that they are now the out-of-touch conservatives hidebound by an archaic "morality", and rather than re-examine their prejudices they'd rather fight tooth and nail to prove how they were the good guys all along.

The good news is, they don't have the kids on their side, except for the blatantly awful pseudo-fascist shitposters. And they're old. And they will die and they will fade in importance. It happened with the anti-gay and lesbian push in the 1980s and it will happen again here.

I know that fucking shit news for trans kids (and all trans people) who are having to deal with all this shit right now in this moment, but keep heart. These cunts are on the way out.
I remember when Nadia Almada won Big Brother 5 and loads of people were like 'aww a trans woman won, good for her'. The LGBT Society I was in at uni thought it was a huge step for trans people. It feels like we've gone backwards. But as others have said, hopefully the 'trans people are evil' attitude will die out.

IMO Julie Burchill was always a conservative though. Like the whole Israel obsession and being pro-Serbia.

Jerzy Bondov

TERFs are very obviously on the wrong side of history and within our lifetimes their views will be almost universally considered laughable shite, but I can imagine that doesn't make day to day life any easier. I'm very aware of what a privilege it is to be able to go online and get angry about transphobia, and then log off and go on with my cis life. I hate TERFs and think they're scum but they're not taking out full page newspaper ads saying we need to have a conversation about whether I should be allowed rights. I'm so sorry that this is where we are right now.

Combat sports are all based on weight limits so theoretically gender wouldn't be as big as an issue. Are team sports an issue either? Mens football for example is a game where one of the two greatest players of their era is a slightly built Argentian who required hormone injections as an adolescent. Most team games are based on skill and talent over physical prowess.

Solidarity.

Kankurette

The way I see it is, trans women have to wee somewhere. They can't go into men's toilets and nor should they have to. I've probably pissed next to loads of trans women for all I know, but it's not something I agonise over.
Quote from: confettiinmyhair on December 13, 2020, 08:13:23 PM
Combat sports are all based on weight limits so theoretically gender wouldn't be as big as an issue. Are team sports an issue either? Mens football for example is a game where one of the two greatest players of their era is a slightly built Argentian who required hormone injections as an adolescent. Most team games are based on skill and talent over physical prowess.

Solidarity.
Maradona was a little titch too. Didn't hurt him.

JaDanketies

Quote from: Jerzy Bondov on December 13, 2020, 08:11:50 PM
TERFs are very obviously on the wrong side of history and within our lifetimes their views will be almost universally considered laughable shite, but I can imagine that doesn't make day to day life any easier. I'm very aware of what a privilege it is to be able to go online and get angry about transphobia, and then log off and go on with my cis life. I hate TERFs and think they're scum but they're not taking out full page newspaper ads saying we need to have a conversation about whether I should be allowed rights. I'm so sorry that this is where we are right now.

I thought that when I deleted my Twitter account after being doxed on Reddit. It's a luxury - to be able to be concerned about the professional repercussions of being discovered to argue in favour of trans rights, and then to one day to make the decision "I'm done arguing about trans rights now."

I can just dip into and out of the subject and none of it has any direct impact on me. For trans people, every day is a struggle for rights and respect. 'BAME' people and women too.

imitationleather

Quote from: Jerzy Bondov on December 13, 2020, 08:11:50 PM
I'm very aware of what a privilege it is to be able to go online and get angry about transphobia, and then log off and go on with my cis life.

This is a really good point I'd not thought about before. It applies to pretty much all of the social justice I'm interested in as well.

Being a white cis man, eh? You can't beat it.

petril

I'd just like to say that while we have to put up with shit to get to that end point, it's not enough to say "chin up and keep suffering, it'll be all over". especially when you're not in that boat yourself. I appreciate there's a lot of empathy and support here, but its us that still bear the brunt every day, in small ways.

I've been through other traumas, so I'm especially sensitive to that sort of sentiment, even when I know exactly where it's from - I'm a child abuse survivor and the context meant it never got dealt with in any real way, just a "head down and it'll be over". It's never over when you follow that, that's just attempted repression.

I think as things get better we're going to necessarily have more explosions in trans visibility, pride and other things - moreso than now - because we're going to need it getting through what we have to to be, and be recognised as people. I think everyone else at that point should keep their chin up and wait for it to subside.

that's what's keeping me going through this now. the big celebration of every positive step we make. we owe it to ourselves for getting through all that shite

also: I used to hate the term "terf island" as geographically inaccurate, plus most of the most fringe wild and scary 'phobes seemed to be in NI, but now I appreciate it as a subtle declaration of Irish Reunification :P

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on December 13, 2020, 07:32:25 PM
I'd say 'bizarre' is a better description than 'interesting'.

I concur.

bgmnts

Isn't it strange to think there have been trans men and women since ancient times, even as far back as Sumeria - the oldest civilisation - and we still can't quite get a grip of it and accept it. It's a bit fucking mental.

Just the random thought of a man who cant quite empathise beyond knowing what its like to be a bit different and suffer from it to a degree. Hope you get through this!

petril

wondering if we might kinda work out a convention of using this thread to head in a more positive, nice direction, echoing stuff said earlier(that I can't find) and the general tone of other threads related to trans stuff obviously is going to bring up a lot of the negativity.

obviously it'd be a waste of time to tightly vet everything, but I think maybe using this thread to go for the nicer stuff would be good as a place I or Goblin or anyone else closely affected to be able to see trans-related talk in the kinda wild[nb]ie outside explicitly trans spaces[/nb] without bracing for seeing a lot of the bigotry or negativity or ignorance.

I'd be up for occasionally dipping into AMA for people with questions about specifics if folk have the weird questions they feel they shouldn't be asking but don't know

TrenterPercenter

Here is a bit of positivity i've recently been working with a local trans charity to provide support and guidance in schools.  If anyone has good links etc it would great to hear them - or any other ideas.

Our main partnership has been very supportive of us including all of this FWIW.

JaDanketies

As I might have alluded to in the past, my friends aren't the most progressive bunch. Think football chants and Tyskie, political opinions garnered from YouTubers in their cars. 

But in a discussion the last time we all got together about whether or not it would be gay for a trans woman to be your girlfriend, all but one disagreed (I think there were five people in the convo), female pronouns were used by all except the transphobe, he got condemned when being outright transphobic, and it was later agreed that this member of the group would just be jealous anyway.  Also one of the group said that they'd actually had a similar conversation recently.

For a conversation about shaggin' birds, it wasn't unusually disrespectful, the typically-offensive bunch of lads were not willing to countenance the worst transphobic slurs, and it showed me that there is a broader belief in TWAW than you might've otherwise thought.

Is that positive?

petril

if it's not, it's at least a good antinegative, but either way I'll take that

as for me, before pandemic times, at work we were talking about running an LGBTQ support group(in this job I work with a disability charity) and looking at me to be part of running it, so it's good to see those intersections being understood, accepted and something more happening with it.

obviously that's been delayed by about 18 months or whatever, but that's in the pipeline.

there's also a general feeling that amongst all this shite, us trans folk are watching the second half of Star Trek TNG, but we're on Bajor and have to wait for Chain of Command before the Cardassians fuck off

Schrodingers Cat

Quote from: imitationleather on December 13, 2020, 08:24:51 PM
Quote from: Jerzy Bondov on December 13, 2020, 08:11:50 PM
I'm very aware of what a privilege it is to be able to go online and get angry about transphobia, and then log off and go on with my cis life.
This is a really good point I'd not thought about before. It applies to pretty much all of the social justice I'm interested in as well.

Being a white cis man, eh? You can't beat it.

Can't quite agree with this, sorry. I don't mean to be getting at either of you, as I know you don't mean it like this, but I personally feel threatened by some of the latest developments. Maybe not directly, but wary of what the future might bring, as I can't help but feel that if certain people get their way, and Trans people are (in effect) seen as 2nd class citizens, it won't stop there. And as one of them gays, albeit a cis, white, man one, I can't help but feel we are next in line. And I find it bizarre that the LGB Alliance types can't see that. The only mitigation in this is a general feeling that this is a blip, and in the near future will be viewed similar to the time of Section 28, as the last pushback against acceptance by people who feel threatened by those of us who are different. None of this will in any way be a comfort to those living in fear through this time, of course, but I firmly believe that the tide will turn back soon. In any case, solidarities to all trans CaBBers who are worrying about this. You are not alone.[nb]P.S. I hope this doesn't come across as another "white, cis, man turns topic about himself" - I hope the message is clear that this has implications beyond those directly affected, and that, not just those of us in the the broader LGBT+ community, but everyone who believes in equality and an end to discrimination must stand together as we could potentially lose what progress we have made if we don't[/nb]

imitationleather

I probably should have included heterosexual in my description as well.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Schrodingers Cat on December 13, 2020, 10:49:28 PM


I dunno the last 3 generations are much more liberal minded than what has come before[nb]as mentioned before I have a few concerns of certain sections of young white males that are clearly being targetted by rightwing interests[/nb]; the future looks brightish just with a bit of lag whilst these older generations die off and go senile.  Still no need being complacent in the meantime.

My thoughts are that progressives need to start making a better fist of alliances and networks; this means serious conversations about associated interests, collaboration and allyship.  A really important part of this is improving how all groups communicate digitally; and maintain exclusivity and identity to individual causes but also collectivised in progressive blocks (this is an old problem but now in a new digital environment - which in fact holds advantages imo).  This will likely entail new language, ways of thinking, and surrounding culture in order to acheive.

hardwork but all doable.

chveik

Quote from: Schrodingers Cat on December 13, 2020, 10:49:28 PM
Can%u2019t quite agree with this, sorry. I don%u2019t mean to be getting at either of you, as I know you don%u2019t mean it like this, but I personally feel threatened by some of the latest developments. Maybe not directly, but wary of what the future might bring, as I can%u2019t help but feel that if certain people get their way, and Trans people are (in effect) seen as 2nd class citizens, it won%u2019t stop there. And as one of them gays, albeit a cis, white, man one, I can%u2019t help but feel we are next in line. And I find it bizarre that the LGB Alliance types can%u2019t see that. The only mitigation in this is a general feeling that this is a blip, and in the near future will be viewed similar to the time of Section 28, as the last pushback against acceptance by people who feel threatened by those of us who are different. None of this will in any way be a comfort to those living in fear through this time, of course, but I firmly believe that the tide will turn back soon. In any case, solidarities to all trans CaBBers who are worrying about this. You are not alone.

yeah I understand the use of the expression 'wrong side of history' in a moral sense but the battle is far from being over (and in any case you can only talk that way retrospectively). it woud have made sense a couple of decades ago when it seemed like the only thing the future had in store was just endless liberal social democracy, and that progressive civil right changes would logically accompany it - but it's clearly not the case, and political activism is the only way to go.

I know it doesn't sound particularly positive, sorry.

evilcommiedictator

If it makes anyone feel any better, the editors of the centrist Fairfax Newspapers here in Australia have just received a round bollocking online for publishing a letter from a "concerned mother" (who just happens to be a terf), which upon inspection is just a copy/paste from Mumsnet.
So it's not just the UK who have lazy questions (even with the Suzanne Moore thing, some of the upper management of Gruainad Australia were "just posing questions" and also got roundly bollocked)

Mister Six

EDIT: Fuck sorry, wrote this before I saw the "positivity" thing upthread, but don't know if i should delete this.

Quote from: JaDanketies on December 13, 2020, 07:35:12 PM
I don't want to sound like Graham Linehan here, but I think this "when auditioning actors to play the part of a trans woman character, you should only hire a trans woman" is wrong-headed. Instead:


  • Hire the best person for the part
  • Consider trans women to play the roles of cis women

Nah. If bullet point 2 were to take off then bullet 1 would be okay, but right now - and for the foreseeable future - roles are largely going to be written as, and assumed by casting directors to be, cis. Even "harried receptionist" and "screaming hostage #2" - the casting director's going to think, "But is this a trans character? What does it say if she's trans? Easier to cast a cis woman."

Which in turn means the only roles going for trans people are trans characters. So when your Johansens and your Redmaynes snap them up, they're taking away some of the only jobs going for trans actors, while they themselves can get plenty of other gigs.

That's shit but that's how things are right now. And in that atmosphere, which is going to take a long time to change, the fastest fix is to ensure that only trans people are considered for trans roles. Once casting is genuinely gender-blind that won't matter. But for now people's livelihoods hang in the balance.

Menu

Quote from: Twit 2 on December 13, 2020, 09:24:10 AM
The best revenge is living well.

An eternal truth. Be you - that's all you need. Just be you.

Bronzy

why can't we all just fuck

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Bronzy on December 14, 2020, 03:44:43 AM
why can't we all just fuck

OK, you start and we'll join in.

Menu


Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Menu on December 14, 2020, 03:58:38 AM
What?! I've already finished.

Sorry, I don't make the rules.

Jerzy Bondov

Quote from: Schrodingers Cat on December 13, 2020, 10:49:28 PM
This is a really good point I'd not thought about before. It applies to pretty much all of the social justice I'm interested in as well.

Being a white cis man, eh? You can't beat it.


Can't quite agree with this, sorry. I don't mean to be getting at either of you, as I know you don't mean it like this, but I personally feel threatened by some of the latest developments. Maybenot directly, but wary of what the future might bring, as I can't help but feel that if certain people get their way, and Trans people are (in effect) seen as 2nd class citizens, it won't stop there. And as one of them gays, albeit a cis, white, man one, I can't help but feel we are next in line.
Yes that's fair. I just think it's healthy to acknowledge that nobody is gunning for me right now and I'm not living with my identity being chewed over on Newsnight. Maybe one day they'll come for us 85% straight guys but for now strongly believing in trans rights isn't causing me any pain beyond some slightly awkward but ultimately positive conversations.

All Surrogate

Huge support for trans people and efforts to break down anti-trans stigma.

And I agree with Schrodingers Cat that the social position of (cis) gay people and trans people are very closely connected. I'd even go so far as to say that if you want to support gay rights, then you must support trans rights.