I watched Die Hard for the first time today

[PlanktonSideburns]

watched lethal weapon the other day

i got to the end, but i was thinking of diehard

[Dropshadow]

Yep, the first Die Hard is a classic, especially if you skip past the groansome buddy-buddy shit between McClane and Al. Awful. I really like the two Agent Johnson's too.

Agent Johnson (answering phone): "Agent Johnson speaking".
<unheard reply from whoever's on the phone>
Agent Johnson (clearly annoyed): "No, the other one".

[Dr Rock]

The big fight with Karl and the hosepipe leap of the roof both happen after the glass in the feet, don't they? It's like he's hard to make die. He's a straight up superhuman.

Why doesn't he take his shoooooes? I think he kills someone before, the one he took the machine hun from, could've had his shoes too. Maye they didn't fit.

[lipsink]

Why doesn't he take his shoooooes? I think he kills someone before, the one he took the machine hun from, could've had his shoes too. Maye they didn't fit.

Yeah he makes a joke about it. "A million terrorists in the world and I gotta get one with feet smaller than my sister" I think.

[SteveDave]

The Last Boy Scout would have made a great Die Hard sequel.

As would "16 Blocks" I think the only reason he's got a tache in that film is to differentiate his character in it from McClane. 

[Dr Rock]

Yeah he makes a joke about it. "A million terrorists in the world and I gotta get one with feet smaller than my sister" I think.

By Jove, you're not wrong.

[Jerzy Bondov]

I would say beyond that plot point though you have the general theme of the establishments incompetence, the FBI guys, the local police chief, etc, the reporter being arrogant and self interested rather than caring about the greater good is the point. Its basically a blue collar cop fantasy were the working man gets the job done in spite of his higher ups.

Yeah exactly. The blue collar thing is the key to the whole movie. McClane, Powell and Argyle are the only ones who do anything to actually help fight the terrorists. All the other (white collar) men just fuck things up through their lack of understanding of reality. It's summed up in the scene where the FBI pressure the straight talking blue collar worker to shut off the power. He protests, they overrule him, it's the wrong thing to do, and they go off gloating about how clever they are.

[Cuellar]

Huge gaping plot hole in the first is that then only reason Powell is just mooching about in his patrol car in the first place is because he was PUNISHED, rather than applauded and given a raise, for shooting someone dead by mistake.

[Jerzy Bondov]

Yes it's a real punch the air moment when he rediscovers his ability to shoot people stone dead in the street

[notjosh]

That's why it worked so well, it fit into to the 'unexpected hero' vibe, he wasn't someone you looked at and thought 'action hero', which is kind of the point of the film. It wouldn't have worked at all with someone like Arnie or Sly doing it.

Exactly - McClane's choice of 'Roy Rogers' as a psuedonym is a direct rejection of the 'John Wayne, Rambo, Marshall Dillon' school of ultra-masculine heroism, as explored in this article:
http://www.imagesjournal.com/issue03/features/diehard1.htm

It's also an acknowledgment of the film's western roots as well - the Eastern cop travelling west to take on bandits. Only he arrives by plane instead of train, and is arguably less 'civilised' than the people he's fighting.

Yeah exactly. The blue collar thing is the key to the whole movie. McClane, Powell and Argyle are the only ones who do anything to actually help fight the terrorists. All the other (white collar) men just fuck things up through their lack of understanding of reality. It's summed up in the scene where the FBI pressure the straight talking blue collar worker to shut off the power. He protests, they overrule him, it's the wrong thing to do, and they go off gloating about how clever they are.

This is reflected by Gruber to an extent too. As an 'exceptional' thief with a classical education he clearly considers himself to be no different from a successful capitalist like Takagi (as his comment about suits indicates) but probably just thinks himself a bit smarter. But as the Bill Clay and 'Yippee-Kay-Yay?' scenes show, his snobbery means that he underestimates McClane's 'street smarts'.

[MojoJojo]

It's great and I love it but it is a bit of a right wing power fantasy.
- average blue collar american saves the day
- Powell learns how to kill again
- sod all the political motivation stuff, the bad guys are just in it for the money.
- The corporation and it's CEO are lovely
- the media are just tacky, attention seeking buffoons who just cause problems.

[greenman]

Its probably more on the right that was typical for a lot of actioners of that era(Robocop, Running Man, Total Recall, etc) although the antagonists only being after money doesnt really agree with that, if it was right wing fantasy they'd be the Baader Meinhof types they pretend to plus the higher ups in law enforcement don't achieve much.

I think things shifted alot more to the right in the 90's, True Lies with the CIA as a whole saving the day, Independence Day feels semi fascist in its nationalism and playing up the US military as world saviors complete with grand speech.

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

This is reflected by Gruber to an extent too. As an 'exceptional' thief with a classic education he clearly considers himself to be no different from a successful capitalist like Takagi (as his comments about suits indicates)

Yarp. Hans talking up his classical education and designer suits also act as little clues that his revolutionary rhetoric is all a front. I first watched the film as a nipper and I got him confused with Ellis a couple of times, which I'm now thinking seems kind of appropriate.

While the reporter subplot may be thematically relevant, I just find it a bit of a drag. It's got some good moments, particularly the scene of them bickering in the news studio ("Eat it, Harvey!") but the film's legendary pace and tension are thrown all out of whack every time we cut away to Thornburg's antics.

[MojoJojo]

While the reporter subplot may be thematically relevant, I just find it a bit of a drag. It's got some good moments, particularly the scene of them bickering in the news studio ("Eat it, Harvey!") but the film's legendary pace and tension are thrown all out of whack every time we cut away to Thornburg's antics.

Yeah, I can see that. I think on paper it might seem like those scenes are necessary to break up the tension, but in execution all the little jokes (Johnson & Johnson, Gruber) do that pretty effectively.

Just felt a little sad that Alan Rickman is no more.

[Blinder Data]

I remember a lot of homoeroticism going on. Such a MAN'S film. McClane's relationship with the cop is way more important and interesting than with his lady. IIRC the Blond haired zombie man is clearly in love with Gruber too.

There's a bit at the start when McClane checks out a girl in the airport and we don't even see her face. You don't need to know chicks when all your meaningful relationships are with da bros

[Blumf]

Independence Day feels semi fascist in its nationalism and playing up the US military as world saviors complete with grand speech.

Wonder if that was a conscious nod to the old 50s B-movies that usually had the US army save the day, or if it was just mindless proto-fascism. (probably a little bit of both)

[lipsink]

It's great and I love it but it is a bit of a right wing power fantasy.
- average blue collar american saves the day
- Powell learns how to kill again
- sod all the political motivation stuff, the bad guys are just in it for the money.
- The corporation and it's CEO are lovely
- the media are just tacky, attention seeking buffoons who just cause problems.

Yup, also career woman Holly Genaro starts using McClaine's surname again at the end.

[sevendaughters]

for a right wing film McClane needs others and has class sympathy for the workers (limo driver) and the symbolic release of the Rolex that Gruber (the film's real capitalist) holds onto feels like a critique of some kind.

[El Unicornio, mang]

I remember a lot of homoeroticism going on. Such a MAN'S film. McClane's relationship with the cop is way more important and interesting than with his lady. IIRC the Blond haired zombie man is clearly in love with Gruber too.

There's a bit at the start when McClane checks out a girl in the airport and we don't even see her face. You don't need to know chicks when all your meaningful relationships are with da bros

There are a few nods to McClane being a "ladies man" though. Checking out the girl at the airport, the lingering eye contact with the amorous flight attendant when he leaves the plane, checking out the girl in the apartment opposite the building, and having a good look at some naked pin-ups in the middle of being chased by the baddies. They almost seem like last minute studio interference things "You've gotta have him checking out women, and smoking cigs like a real man would do"

I watch it every Xmas although time seems to move so quickly these days that I feel like I only just watched it last month. The best action movie, gets into the action nice and early, although I think Lethal Weapon has the best action movie intro.

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

"Hey, I love ya. A lot of the guys here do."

Like many action heroes, John has 'a case of the not-gays'. There's also the bit when he arrives at the party and a bloke kisses him. He doesn't go full on gay panic, but he lets us know full well that's not his sort of thing - "Jesus. Fuckin' California."

One of those retrospective video essay type things about the first film: https://youtu.be/EAM4sFFfdpI

[monkfromhavana]

Huge gaping plot hole in the first is that then only reason Powell is just mooching about in his patrol car in the first place is because he was PUNISHED, rather than applauded and given a raise, for shooting someone dead by mistake.

For me, they key theme of the entire film is Powell getting over his trauma and learning to kill again.

I really don't know why Argyle was still waiting around in the limo many, man hours after McClane had left. I know he said he'd wait to see if things were going ok, but he was there for hours.

Also, the gangs escape plan is pretty shit. Get all the hostages on the roof and blow them up, then pretend that they're the only survivors?

[MojoJojo]

Huge gaping plot hole in the first is that then only reason Powell is just mooching about in his patrol car in the first place is because he was PUNISHED, rather than applauded and given a raise, for shooting someone dead by mistake.

What you've got confused about there is, while a shooting involving a cop and a black person is often applauded in the USA, it's important that the black person gets shot rather than being the shooter. It might be quite a fine distinction but it's quite important.

[Gulftastic]

For me, they key theme of the entire film is Powell getting over his trauma and learning to kill again.

I really don't know why Argyle was still waiting around in the limo many, man hours after McClane had left. I know he said he'd wait to see if things were going ok, but he was there for hours.

Also, the gangs escape plan is pretty shit. Get all the hostages on the roof and blow them up, then pretend that they're the only survivors?

Argyle tries to drive out of the underground car park, it's locked.

The gangs plan was not to be thought of as survivors, they wanted it to look like they'd gone down with the hostages in a massive explosion. They were banking on that ruse lasting long enough for them to be sitting on a beach earning twenny percent before the heat was on.

[Gulftastic]

What you've got confused about there is, while a shooting involving a cop and a black person is often applauded in the USA, it's important that the black person gets shot rather than being the shooter. It might be quite a fine distinction but it's quite important.

Also, the one survivor of the crooks? The black guy! Although he will then take the  weight for the whole caper.

[MojoJojo]

I really don't know why Argyle was still waiting around in the limo many, man hours after McClane had left. I know he said he'd wait to see if things were going ok, but he was there for hours.

I think he says something about being paid up till midnight. Also doesn't he get locked in the garage?

[monkfromhavana]

I think he says something about being paid up till midnight. Also doesn't he get locked in the garage?

He only finds that the garage is locked after a few hours, but you're right, he was paid until midnight. Did he know he was locked in by the time McClane drops the C4 down the lift shaft and covers everyone outside in glass?

The gangs plan was not to be thought of as survivors, they wanted it to look like they'd gone down with the hostages in a massive explosion. They were banking on that ruse lasting long enough for them to be sitting on a beach earning twenny percent before the heat was on.

Still taking a fairly massive chance, although I suppose by the end there was only 3 of them left so could slip away easily.

Another good little scene is the whole "Asian Dawn" thing.

[A Hat Like That]

Wonder if that was a conscious nod to the old 50s B-movies that usually had the US army save the day, or if it was just mindless proto-fascism. (probably a little bit of both)

The makers let the BBC make a radio programme based on Independence Day,

The movie's producer Dean Devlin gave Dirk Maggs permission to produce an original radio adaptation provided that he did not reveal certain details of the movie's plot, and that he did not depict the British as saving the day.

Never listened, but the cast/crew is at the very least intriguing.

[MojoJojo]

Still taking a fairly massive chance, although I suppose by the end there was only 3 of them left so could slip away easily.

Didn't they have an ambulance to drive away in? I think in the chaos after the explosion they'd have a pretty good chance of getting away, and once they were away they'd be good. As escape plans go it was pretty good, if you don't care about killing loads of people.

[monkfromhavana]

Didn't they have an ambulance to drive away in? I think in the chaos after the explosion they'd have a pretty good chance of getting away, and once they were away they'd be good. As escape plans go it was pretty good, if you don't care about killing loads of people.

There's about 15 of them though (Unless they planned for 12 or so of them to die), they wouldn't all fit in one ambulance along with god knows how many sacks of negotiable bearer bonds.

It's half-arsed shit like this that got him suspended from the Volksfrei Movement's membership in the first place.

[MojoJojo]

They may have had more than one ambulance. I think they arrive in them don't they?

They could have maybe put more work into the tagline:
"It will blow you through the back wall of the theater!"