Is self-improvement a Conservative value?

[Mobbd]

I was just reading about Walter Greenwood, a celebrated working-class writer, because something about him popped up in my Twitter feed.

Much is made about how he "educated himself" in Salford Public Library after leaving school at 13.

This sort of thing has been on my mind lately. I've always admired people who educate themselves in this way and I suppose I've sort-of done it myself, but there's a prominent (though perhaps not prevailing?) idea that self-improvement is a conservative value.

This troubles me in a couple of different directions, i.e. do I have a conservative value? Or alternatively, is this actually an implanted class neurosis that is holding socialism and therefore a better world back? Maybe we can cite radical Greenwood as an example of how self-improvement clearly isn't conservative at all; but on the other hand, maybe he's only celebrated because his self-education represents a conservative value.

Daren McGarvey (Loki)'s recent Orwell Prize-winning book was criticised a bit for encouraging self-improvement among his fellow working-class Glaswegians. I recall there was something about getting over the social barrier of buying vegetables and that revolution won't happen in your lifetime so you might as well try and live well. The critics' point is presumably that we (the working class left) should be using our energies on collective action and not spending it on this self-improving lark.

I've also heard the 'self-improvement is conservative' thing levelled at Adam Buxton's dad on this forum. (I'm not knocking this outlook and BadDad was obviously very conservative, I'm just citing it as an example).

I sort-of see where the argument is coming from. Tories love a story of a self-made man or whatever (even though their leaders are generally born into obscene wealth). Bilge like Billy Elliott or X-Factor success stories can be held up by Tories to "show" that hardworking/skilled/dedicated plebs can clearly do for themselves, so why have a welfare state? when these are rare and often fictional examples.

But at the same time I think "but what else have we got?" If we can't fucking try a bit and help ourselves individually, we'll be here forever, no? Besides, another arguably conservative value is class loyalty, right? i.e. knowing your place and not trying to do better.

Suppose you were to volunteer with a community initiative that goes around working-class schools, encouraging kids to live healthy lives. People wouldn't accuse you of conservativism because you're practicing collective action, but apparently they might level this at the kids who grow up and actually put what you taught them into action?

I met a Labour activist in [Northern city name redacted for anonymity] a couple of years ago and we got along well. But I was surprised to see so much stuff about self-destruction, smoking, drugs, self-harm and the likes on their social media. It didn't strike me as a cry for help or anything like that, it was more of a punk-like posture stemming from a belief that looking after yourself is Tory. I know it sounds mad, but that remains my read of it. But what logic is that? Tories want to destroy us, so self-care/self-improvement is anti-Tory surely?

Any thoughts?

[Fambo Number Mive]

Self improvement can help others, for example someone who is the first person in their family to get a PhD can tell the rest of the family what he has been studying in their PhD, and use their PhD to improve the world at large.

I think self improvement only becomes an issue when it causes the person who has improved to forget the other factors that helped them get there. It's almost never just down to one person, but you get a load of self-made people becoming Tories because they think this.

[Tony Tony Tony]

Pleased to see Walter Greenwood get a mention as he was born in the same Salford Street (Ellor Street) as my Father.

On the subject of self improvement it does seem sad that so many working class types seem to take a lack of education as a badge of honour. Mind you with the collapse of the Red Wall there is no reason to think working class folks don't vote Conservative in the numbers they used too.

When I was at Uni one of our little gang used to say "the real poverty of the working classes is in the poverty of their aspirations". I always thought it was some quote by some sage thinker but can't find a record. The chap in question turned out to be a right cunt and runs his own business employing minimum wage cleaning staff, so there you go.

Edit Reread your post and noticed you are using conservative with small c, but I still stand by my point

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Self-improvement and international solidarity with workers are not mutually exclusive, so what you have to look out for is where either receive overbearing emphasis.

[Mr_Simnock]

Self improvement might be considered a conservative value but using this to help others definitely isn't, so for it to be considered proper you need to add  'for yourself only' at the end (and the same goes for just about any other conservative 'value').

[JamesTC]

If all working class people just learned ballet then we wouldn't need food banks.

[Mobbd]

Self improvement can help others, for example someone who is the first person in their family to get a PhD can tell the rest of the family what he has been studying in their PhD, and use their PhD to improve the world at large.

I think self improvement only becomes an issue when it causes the person who has improved to forget the other factors that helped them get there. It's almost never just down to one person, but you get a load of self-made people becoming Tories because they think this.

I think that's a lovely worldview and one I can get behind. The improvements of one generation should help the next.

I'm chuckling a bit though because my parents, though they were the ones who pushed me to do it, hate that I went to university. They feel alienated and patronised by my very existence. I'll point out here that I never came running home to talk about Foucault or deliberately whacked them over the head with poststructuralism. But they can sense my values and they hate me for them. They'd probably cut me out of the will if I ever did a PhD. My parents are the sort of people who bemoan the conditions my dad experienced down the pit but also think we should bring them back.

[Mobbd]

Edit Reread your post and noticed you are using conservative with small c, but I still stand by my point

Thanks for taking my post seriously. It's something I'm genuinely puzzling over. Set up a Miners' Institute Library and be a philanthropist hero. Actually use it? Know your place!

Lovely Ellor Street connection. :)

EDIT: Here's the tweet if you're interested in it or the feed: https://twitter.com/workingclasslit/status/1339526089874542594

[Thomas]

I've also heard the 'self-improvement is conservative' thing levelled at Adam Buxton's dad on this forum. (I'm not knocking this outlook and BadDad was obviously very conservative, I'm just citing it as an example).

I sort-of see where the argument is coming from. Tories love a story of a self-made man or whatever (even though their leaders are generally born into obscene wealth). Bilge like Billy Elliott or X-Factor success stories can be held up by Tories to "show" that hardworking/skilled/dedicated plebs can clearly do for themselves, so why have a welfare state? when these are rare and often fictional examples.

But at the same time I think "but what else have we got?" If we can't fucking try a bit and help ourselves individually, we'll be here forever, no? Besides, another arguably conservative value is class loyalty, right? i.e. knowing your place and not trying to do better.

Unfortunately, the idea of 'self-improvement' is so often trotted out (by conservative people) as proof that the socio-economic playing field is level. This falsehood contributes to the myth of the self-reliant bootstrap-puller, and ignores all social and structural inequalities.

Fittingly, the pursuit of self-improvement through venues like private schools (and the useful friendships developed there) only entrenches these inequalities further (whilst the graduating winners get to deny that the inequalities even exist, on the evidence of their own success), thereby excluding greater amounts of people from improved conditions.

If cockney boyo Al Sugar managed to clamber up the greasy slide and land himself Lorddom, then so should you, you lazy twat!

I instinctively cringe from the term 'aspiration', even when it's being used in lovely, friendly, earnest contexts, as it feels so drenched in Blairism. I've abandoned the word itself and must come up with a new one.

There's nothing wrong with what we're loosely terming 'self-improvement' in this thread. If someone can kick a harmful drug habit or learn a new language or study really hard and get a degree, great. But I think it must always be done with an awareness of society, privilege,[nb]a lot of people self-improving through educational courses, for example, are only able to do so because they're healthy, can pay the bills, and are not overly time-poor.[/nb] inequality, and the necessity of a safety net. It becomes conservative when the self-improver fails to acknowledge these factors, or even outright denies their existence.

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

I met a Labour activist in [Northern city name redacted for anonymity] a couple of years ago and we got along well. But I was surprised to see so much stuff about self-destruction, smoking, drugs, self-harm and the likes on their social media. It didn't strike me as a cry for help or anything like that, it was more of a punk-like posture stemming from a belief that looking after yourself is Tory.

If it sets your mind at ease, that ranks among the stupidest things I have ever heard.

[Mobbd]

Unfortunately, the idea of 'self-improvement' is so often trotted out (by conservative people) as proof that the socio-economic playing field is level. This falsehood contributes to the myth of the self-reliant bootstrap-puller, and ignores all social and structural inequalities.

Yes, that's the danger, isn't it? People like Greenwood are exceptional and, where they succeed, they did so with great machinery against them. We can't say "well, if he did it, what are you complaining about?" Agreed. But the defense against this is perhaps damaging, i.e. putting the whole ethic of self-improvement in the bin.

I suppose I'm coming at this from the perspective of a Socialist lower-middle-class adult[nb]I literally live in poverty but I feel culturally middle-class - we can save this not unrelated discussion for another day![/nb] who grew up in a conservative (and Conservative) working-class family/area. The whole idea of "Conservative working-class" strikes me as a bit of a paradox and I've just pulled one semi-logical strand of it and gone cross-eyed trying to understand it.

[Icehaven]

My parents are the sort of people who bemoan the conditions my dad experienced down the pit but also think we should bring them back.

My Mum is nothing like that extreme and I love her to bits but she does have a few similarly contradictory attitudes about a few things. She retired over twenty years ago now but she was a nurse for most of her working life, and a few years ago she was absolutely shocked to discover my cousin's girlfriend, currently also a nurse, earns considerably more than she ever did (even allowing for inflation etc.) Nurses still aren't exactly high paid, and she (the girlfriend) is a community nurse, which I think is better paid than hospital nursing (although I don't know for certain.)
The gf is also studying to be a doctor, something which my mum seems to always mention disparagingly, as if she must think she's too good to be a nurse or as if the greedy cow must just want yet more money. I can see how my Mum basically sees it as they essentially did/do the same job but she's getting way more money, but rather than be annoyed at this as a fact she seems to direct her ire at least partly at the gf, as if she's set her salary herself. The sniffiness over her training to be a doctor feels a bit more like what some other posts in this thread have referred to, an automatic suspicion of and aversion towards someone trying to work their way up, particularly when the profession they're leaving behind is the same as yours.

I would never actually say it because she's old now and it'd be mean, but I do sometimes feel like saying "Given it's impossible to go back in time and increase nurse's pay from 40 years ago or make medical school more accessible for women and the working class, would you rather nurses now earned less and shouldn't be allowed to train to be doctors just so you don't feel hard done by?" I also worry the answer would probably be yes. We get so used to the cliché of older people going on about how much better things were when they were young and how horrible the world is now that it's quite hard to fathom when they seemingly react badly to things that have actually improved simply because it goes against their understanding of how the world works.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Good post Thommo

[bgmnts]

Definitely. It's embedded so deeply in our collective psyche though it's impossible to remove.

[Marner and Me]

You have to help yourself in life as no one else will.

Some lad I know moans about his shit job moving parcels in a warehouse, for minimum wage, since leaving school, he has been in low level jobs (retail) or unemployed. He has done nothing to improve his own life, not been to collage or attempted uni etc. The only thing he is probably good for is an organ doner. His sad little mate is even worse. He is fully able bodied and has never worked a day in his life. Just goes to the bookies or the pub.

They will then moan about such and such keeping them down, and not having money etc.

[Marner and Me]

My Mum is nothing like that extreme and I love her to bits but she does have a few similarly contradictory attitudes about a few things. She retired over twenty years ago now but she was a nurse for most of her working life, and a few years ago she was absolutely shocked to discover my cousin's girlfriend, currently also a nurse, earns considerably more than she ever did (even allowing for inflation etc.) Nurses still aren't exactly high paid, and she (the girlfriend) is a community nurse, which I think is better paid than hospital nursing (although I don't know for certain.)
The gf is also studying to be a doctor, something which my mum seems to always mention disparagingly, as if she must think she's too good to be a nurse or as if the greedy cow must just want yet more money. I can see how my Mum basically sees it as they essentially did/do the same job but she's getting way more money, but rather than be annoyed at this as a fact she seems to direct her ire at least partly at the gf, as if she's set her salary herself. The sniffiness over her training to be a doctor feels a bit more like what some other posts in this thread have referred to, an automatic suspicion of and aversion towards someone trying to work their way up, particularly when the profession they're leaving behind is the same as yours.

I would never actually say it because she's old now and it'd be mean, but I do sometimes feel like saying "Given it's impossible to go back in time and increase nurse's pay from 40 years ago or make medical school more accessible for women and the working class, would you rather nurses now earned less and shouldn't be allowed to train to be doctors just so you don't feel hard done by?" I also worry the answer would probably be yes. We get so used to the cliché of older people going on about how much better things were when they were young and how horrible the world is now that it's quite hard to fathom when they seemingly react badly to things that have actually improved simply because it goes against their understanding of how the world works.

As you get older, you tend to forget the shitter things and remember the better times anyway, they had it piss easy back then, brought a house and had the mortgage paid off within 15-20 years.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

You have to help yourself in life as no one else will.

Some lad I know moans about his shit job moving parcels in a warehouse, for minimum wage, since leaving school, he has been in low level jobs (retail) or unemployed. He has done nothing to improve his own life, not been to collage or attempted uni etc. The only thing he is probably good for is an organ doner. His sad little mate is even worse. He is fully able bodied and has never worked a day in his life. Just goes to the bookies or the pub.

They will then moan about such and such keeping them down, and not having money etc.

And of course moaning and moaning about them is so much better.

You haven't benefited from socialism at all then, I take it? No education, healthcare, infrastructure, national insurance, rights at work. All where you are because of your own efforts.

I have steadily noticed you hold both shit and dull opinions.

[Mobbd]

I do sometimes feel like saying "Given it's impossible to go back in time and increase nurse's pay from 40 years ago or make medical school more accessible for women and the working class, would you rather nurses now earned less and shouldn't be allowed to train to be doctors just so you don't feel hard done by?" I also worry the answer would probably be yes.

It's a very odd thing. Less class loyalty and more generation loyalty or something. I observed such a long time ago how odd it is that some older people lament "school getting easier" with the move from O Levels to GCSE or the banning of corporal punishment, while also moaning about the lot they suffered. Why would you want to perpetuate something awful that you happened to survive? It's amazing to me. I don't think I speak as a privileged idiot who has never known hardship. My current hostile environment-related woes are something I struggle to speak about at the moment for fear of compromising the process but once it's over I think I'd like to help people currently going through it and will eventually be glad to see the back of it (if indeed we ever do). I want the future to be better. I suppose that's ultimately the defining factor of not being conservative.[nb]though do they see a future of their values being realised as a 'better future' given what those values are? Hard to see how but I suppose they must.[/nb]

[Mobbd]

He has done nothing to improve his own life

Says you.

[Fambo Number Mive]

You have to help yourself in life as no one else will.

Some lad I know moans about his shit job moving parcels in a warehouse, for minimum wage, since leaving school, he has been in low level jobs (retail) or unemployed. He has done nothing to improve his own life, not been to collage or attempted uni etc. The only thing he is probably good for is an organ doner. His sad little mate is even worse. He is fully able bodied and has never worked a day in his life. Just goes to the bookies or the pub.

They will then moan about such and such keeping them down, and not having money etc.

Perhaps this pair of lads don't have the confidence to go to college or university, or try and retrain towards a more fulfilling job. Or they don't have the money for retraining or going to university. Or there are other things putting them off.

[Zetetic]

I have steadily noticed you hold both shit and dull opinions.

Hints that he understands the dark heart of owner-occupation, which is something.

[Icehaven]

As you get older, you tend to forget the shitter things and remember the better times anyway, they couples or men had it piss easy back then, brought a house and had the mortgage paid off within 15-20 years.

Made a slight adjustment.

[Marner and Me]

Says you.

I'm in a job with an above average salary, own a house, looking to buy a second and own my own car. After leaving school with 4 GCSEs. Don't think I've done to bad.

[Marner and Me]

And of course moaning and moaning about them is so much better.

You haven't benefited from socialism at all then, I take it? No education, healthcare, infrastructure, national insurance, rights at work. All where you are because of your own efforts.

I have steadily noticed you hold both shit and dull opinions.

Couldn't really give a fuck, I don't have the time nor energy to waste typing essays onto here.

[Zetetic]

own a house, looking to buy a second and own my own car

Are you aware of a thing called "the ScrewFix catalogue"?

[shiftwork2]

I'm in a job with an above average salary, own a house, looking to buy a second and own my own car. After leaving school with 4 GCSEs. Don't think I've done to bad.

Barry Homeowner!

[Mobbd]

I'm in a job with an above average salary, own a house, looking to buy a second and own my own car. After leaving school with 4 GCSEs. Don't think I've done to bad.

I wasn't suggesting that you haven't done well. Not at all.[nb]I saw that Mrs Browns Boys was renewed this week until the end of time, so, now I think about it, you're clearly one of the winners.[/nb] I was suggesting that you don't really know the lives of the boys whose situations you're crapping on. No matter how well you think you've observed their situation, you don't really know what their hopes are, what they've tried and failed to do, what they're up against (systematically and psychologically), why they are where they are.

[Marner and Me]

I wasn't suggesting that you haven't done well. Not at all.[nb]I saw that Mrs Browns Boys was renewed this week until the end of time, so, now I think about it, you're clearly one of the winners.[/nb] I was suggesting that you don't really know the lives of the boys whose situations you're crapping on. No matter how well you think you've observed their situation, you don't really know what their hopes are, what they've tried and failed to do, what they're up against (systematically and psychologically), why they are where they are.

I know pretty much exactly what they have done, and it is fuck all. I used to be quite good mates with one of them, until I realised he was using me as a bank. His hopes and dreams are one day to settle down with a wife and kids, however no woman will go near him as he doesn't offer anything, IE no home or income, then he will moan all he is left with is single mums etc. It is almost like he revels in his own misery.

[ASFTSN]

The only thing he is probably good for is an organ doner.

All lips and arseholes anyway

[Kankurette]

Would explain why so many of the fitness community are right-wing.