Tip jar

If you like CaB and wish to support it, you can use PayPal or KoFi. Thank you, and I hope you continue to enjoy the site - Neil.

Buy Me a Coffee at ko-fi.com

Support CaB

Recent

Welcome to Cook'd and Bomb'd. Please login or sign up.

March 28, 2024, 12:41:00 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Is self-improvement a Conservative value?

Started by Mobbd, December 17, 2020, 12:47:23 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

jobotic

Quote from: Marner and Me on December 17, 2020, 03:27:51 PM
I know pretty much exactly what they have done, and it is fuck all. I used to be quite good mates with one of them, until I realised he was using me as a bank. His hopes and dreams are one day to settle down with a wife and kids, however no woman will go near him as he doesn't offer anything, IE no home or income, then he will moan all he is left with is single mums etc. It is almost like he revels in his own misery.

This is a parody?

Mobbd

Quote from: Marner and Me on December 17, 2020, 03:27:51 PM
I used to be quite good mates with one of them, until I realised he was using me as a bank.

He gives you all of his money so that you can expertly invest it for your mutual benefit? He's smarter than you originally made him sound.

Mobbd

Quote from: Kankurette on December 17, 2020, 03:36:36 PM
Would explain why so many of the fitness community are right-wing.

That's a point. Ubermensch physical aspiration is associated with Naziism while book smarts is traditionally lefty. Different types of self-improvement.

Kankurette

I go the gym myself but it's more to keep my joints active and because it's fun. Mostly.

bgmnts

Quote from: Marner and Me on December 17, 2020, 03:06:29 PM
I'm in a job with an above average salary, own a house, looking to buy a second and own my own car. After leaving school with 4 GCSEs. Don't think I've done to bad.

Because you live in a society where a shitload of people have had to give everything to you.

In the grand scheme of things you're nothing and your achievements are just standing on the shoulders of giants.

Sorry.

Bazooka

Quote from: Kankurette on December 17, 2020, 03:36:36 PM
Would explain why so many of the fitness community are right-wing.

What a moronic view you hold.

dissolute ocelot

Quote from: Kankurette on December 17, 2020, 03:36:36 PM
Would explain why so many of the fitness community are right-wing.

Keeping fit to be healthy or get out of the house is fine, but if you're being fit to be stronger than others, you tend to enjoy beating up weaker people:

QuoteThe study found a significant correlation between those men who were heavier and stronger and the belief that some social groups should dominate others. These men were also less likely to support the redistribution of wealth, a typically left wing principle. Specifically, the researchers found a specific correlation between the number of hours spent in the gym and having less egalitarian socioeconomic beliefs.
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/men-gym-visit-more-socioeconomic-equality-believe-class-research-brunel-university-a7752741.html



Mobbd

Quote from: dissolute ocelot on December 17, 2020, 04:01:16 PM
Keeping fit to be healthy or get out of the house is fine, but if you're being fit to be stronger than others, you tend to enjoy beating up weaker people:
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/men-gym-visit-more-socioeconomic-equality-believe-class-research-brunel-university-a7752741.html

Yes. I don't think anyone here was saying "all gym members are fascists" and keeping basically fit is obviously a good thing for body and mind, but there is the inherently right-wing idea of "might is right."

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

I keep in shape because I'm surprisingly vain. Where does that fall on the political compass?

Botty Cello

Quote from: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on December 17, 2020, 05:22:14 PM
.....because I'm surprisingly vain.
How does that work ? Do you get shocked when you look in the mirror ?

Surely self improvement is something everyone does a bit off ? It's the excessive use of Lycra that concerns me. Why do you need to dress up like an Olympian and spend three grand on a bike to go cycling ?


Non Stop Dancer

Quote from: Marner and Me on December 17, 2020, 03:06:29 PM
I'm in a job with an above average salary, own a house, looking to buy a second and own my own car. After leaving school with 4 GCSEs. Don't think I've done to bad.
Why not do even better than that? With more effort/self improvement you could earn more, have a nicer house and car etc.

Also, do you believe everyone can/should achieve the same and if so, who do you propose does the road cleaning, bum-wiping etc?

FYI, I'm in a very similar position to you (no GCSEs at all, mind), and also happen to think that ultimately, the only person that's going to improve your own situation is you (under the system in which we live, at least) so I'm not against the idea of wanting to improve one's own life circumstances, but I've found myself thinking along similar lines to you in the past and it's ultimately a daft position to take, but you'll need a bit of empathy to think your way out of it.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

Quote from: Botty Cello on December 17, 2020, 05:32:31 PM
How does that work ? Do you get shocked when you look in the mirror ?
Surprising to the people who know me, most of whom seem to think I'm slim because of malnutrition.

Buelligan

The really frightening thing about this whole conversation is, if self-improvement really is a conservative value, imagine the Rees Mogg seed, the Johnson nymph.  Yes, imagine but don't let it break your lovely head.

Matt Hancock tadpole.

canadagoose


finnquark

I think, as others have said, it is in the eye of the beholder. Samuel Smiles' book Self Help was a classic example of this, admired and loathed by politicians of all stripes as time goes by. One of the great union leaders, A.J. Cook, was a fan of it. Friedrich Hayek despised it.

Kankurette

Quote from: Bazooka on December 17, 2020, 03:57:22 PM
What a moronic view you hold.
Just going on my own experiences here. Or maybe it's just the ones I've followed. But there is an overlap between fitness types and conservative bootstrappers, not to mention the hatred of fat women. And people who think that if Oscar Pistorius can be a runner or a double amputee can climb Everest, the rest of us disabled people have no excuse and if you aren't out there doing a shit ton of burpees, you're just a lazy fat cunt and a drain on the NHS and may as well kill yourself.

Pijlstaart

I'm finding there are more drawbacks to exercise than advantages, hard to see how it constitutes self-improvement. Principally I've become a victim of decreased armpit access, it used to be open season, a shallow divot that got lots of sun you could freely visit for picnics, but now there's a wall of front muscle and a wall of back muscle, steep and unyielding and you need to angle your entry between them. I can't even look in anymore, anything could be happening.

Self-improvement is very much down to one's own values. I spent a good portion of my childhood pretending to be an imaginary madcap cat and Babaji brought in a bleach-drinking woo-merchant to exorcise the cat. I contend it was not a successful exorcism because exorcisms aren't real, but Father insisted the cat had both been exorcised and I had improved forevermore. Whilst I cannot explain why I never again adopted the guise of this cat, and though I admittedly didn't enter a slump post-exorcism, I am adamant that the cat's continued presence would have improved both my career and romantic life.

Noodle Lizard

Quote from: Mobbd on December 17, 2020, 12:47:23 PMBesides, another arguably conservative value is class loyalty, right? i.e. knowing your place and not trying to do better.

Arguably, that's not necessarily a conservative value. When I got really into reading about stoicism a couple of years ago, that kind of thing kept coming up - the idea that increased upward mobility (or at least the illusion thereof) actually causes unhappiness rather than solves it. I think when modern commentators discuss it, they're referring more to the 20th century maxim that "anyone can make it", which comes with an implication that if you haven't done so (or don't aspire to), you're something of a failure. There's a quote (I think erroneously) attributed to John Steinbeck that says the average American sees themselves as "temporarily embarrassed millionaires", and that's definitely the impression you get from the populations of most modern societies now.

It depends how you qualify "self-improvement", in any event. The phrase itself obviously means one thing, but it seems to be conflated more and more with external aspiration than anything else. The motivational speakers who go on about it in a career/financial sense do tend to lean conservative, of course, and even the more liberal types (yer minimalists, or mindfulness and TM proponents etc.) are ultimately concerned with how it'll improve your situation materially. The idea of "being happy with your lot" is a bit unpopular on both ends of the spectrum, but in my experience I've found that people unburdened by the idea that they should be somehow doing better than they are are significantly happier than their busier counterparts. That's not to say that they aren't concerned with improving themselves, but that this tends to happen on a personal level (i.e. within their relationships, friendships, treatment of others etc.) rather than improving their career, financial status or "importance".

Mobbd

Quote from: Noodle Lizard on December 17, 2020, 08:21:36 PM
Arguably, that's not necessarily a conservative value. When I got really into reading about stoicism a couple of years ago, that kind of thing kept coming up - the idea that increased upward mobility (or at least the illusion thereof) actually causes unhappiness rather than solves it.

[...]

It depends how you qualify "self-improvement", in any event. The phrase itself obviously means one thing, but it seems to be conflated more and more with external aspiration than anything else. The motivational speakers who go on about it in a career/financial sense do tend to lean conservative, of course, and even the more liberal types (yer minimalists, or mindfulness and TM proponents etc.) are ultimately concerned with how it'll improve your situation materially. The idea of "being happy with your lot" is a bit unpopular on both ends of the spectrum, but in my experience I've found that people unburdened by the idea that they should be somehow doing better than they are are significantly happier than their busier counterparts.

That Stoic credo is very much the one I live by. Genuinely. Materially, I've found my niche. Weird but true.

What I meant by self-improvement when I started the thread was probably "self-education" or "expansion of horizons"[nb]not just in terms of "knowing stuff" but in having greater sympathy for other ways of living, getting to the political bottom of things, being able to think about and understand art/culture/design, etc[/nb] in the way I was prompted to think re: Walter Greenwood reading books in the public library despite everything, but this thread has made me realise there's other ways to interpret that: in terms of athleticism and now material success, both of which are more obviously conservative than Socialist somehow (though this should be so should be interrogated further).

I suppose Buckles' dad, to go back to him for a second, was ultimately materially motivated. I think Adam said he'd worked as a butler, seen how the other half lives, and decided to strive for a piece of that.

Twit 2

Quote from: Noodle Lizard on December 17, 2020, 08:21:36 PM
Arguably, that's not necessarily a conservative value. When I got really into reading about stoicism a couple of years ago, that kind of thing kept coming up - the idea that increased upward mobility (or at least the illusion thereof) actually causes unhappiness rather than solves it. I think when modern commentators discuss it, they're referring more to the 20th century maxim that "anyone can make it", which comes with an implication that if you haven't done so (or don't aspire to), you're something of a failure. There's a quote (I think erroneously) attributed to John Steinbeck that says the average American sees themselves as "temporarily embarrassed millionaires", and that's definitely the impression you get from the populations of most modern societies now.

It depends how you qualify "self-improvement", in any event. The phrase itself obviously means one thing, but it seems to be conflated more and more with external aspiration than anything else. The motivational speakers who go on about it in a career/financial sense do tend to lean conservative, of course, and even the more liberal types (yer minimalists, or mindfulness and TM proponents etc.) are ultimately concerned with how it'll improve your situation materially. The idea of "being happy with your lot" is a bit unpopular on both ends of the spectrum, but in my experience I've found that people unburdened by the idea that they should be somehow doing better than they are are significantly happier than their busier counterparts. That's not to say that they aren't concerned with improving themselves, but that this tends to happen on a personal level (i.e. within their relationships, friendships, treatment of others etc.) rather than improving their career, financial status or "importance".

Indeed. Most people expect and want things which aren't feasible, are too nebulous or complex, or are shallow, consumerist or performative, or any combination. Weekend/holiday coming up, and all I want is some good kip, some good grub, some nice music, a good book, doss about with family, and a mooch about in the countryside where I live. All pleasant, relaxing, achievable, relatively cheap and low impact. Pick a few things and just enjoy being in the moment doing them.

Cuellar

Laurence Shahlaei famously endorsed Jeremy Corbyn

Mobbd

Quote from: Mobbd on December 17, 2020, 08:41:56 PM
That Stoic credo

Actually, just further to this, I always found Stoicism a little bit conservative (or at least macho) compared to other Hellenic philosophies, say, Epicurism. The former, if I remember right, advocates embracing hardship in order to better survive it while the latter is more about avoiding aspiration in favour of simple pleasures. I suppose they amount to the same thing really.

Kelvin


Twit 2

I wouldn't say stoicism is about embracing hardship, more about developing healthy and logical thought processes to hardship when it does appear.

jamiefairlie

Surely conservatives are mostly against self-improvement as that upsets the established order that has them at the top. They'd prefer the social stratas to remain stable. Perhaps they promote the illusion of self-improvement as an unattainable carrot which they dangle to keep the rabble from organizing amongst themselves, like in America, where the poorest are the most anti free health care and the like.

Noodle Lizard

Quote from: Mobbd on December 17, 2020, 08:46:00 PM
Actually, just further to this, I always found Stoicism a little bit conservative (or at least macho) compared to other Hellenic philosophies, say, Epicurism. The former, if I remember right, advocates embracing hardship in order to better survive it while the latter is more about avoiding aspiration in favour of simple pleasures. I suppose they amount to the same thing really.

Yeah, there's a bit of a crossover for sure. At least in my experience, you couldn't read much about one without hearing about the other. Of course a lot of the original stoic texts have a kind of macho slant to them, being primarily espoused by influential politicians, army generals or emperors, but I think it's aiming to describe the same thing as Epicureanism and later some of the transcendentalist works. I see less of a distinction between Seneca/Aurelius and Emerson/Thoreau than I do between those ideas and what we consider "self-improvement" today. I'm practically allergic to most of their modern, entrepreneurial equivalents.

Marner and Me

Quote from: Non Stop Dancer on December 17, 2020, 05:54:13 PM
Why not do even better than that? With more effort/self improvement you could earn more, have a nicer house and car etc.

Also, do you believe everyone can/should achieve the same and if so, who do you propose does the road cleaning, bum-wiping etc?

FYI, I'm in a very similar position to you (no GCSEs at all, mind), and also happen to think that ultimately, the only person that's going to improve your own situation is you (under the system in which we live, at least) so I'm not against the idea of wanting to improve one's own life circumstances, but I've found myself thinking along similar lines to you in the past and it's ultimately a daft position to take, but you'll need a bit of empathy to think your way out of it.
I do have empathy for people who help themselves, as for who does litter picking, useless cunts who sit around doing nothing all day. If they don't like it, get a job.