Is self-improvement a Conservative value?

[Non Stop Dancer]

I do have empathy for people who help themselves, as for who does litter picking, useless cunts who sit around doing nothing all day. If they don't like it, get a job.

So people who work in minimum wage jobs in care homes for example, you'd rather have those roles performed by people who are being forced to be there? Would that be the best thing for the people who live there?

And I'd like to see your response to the first part of my post as well - why don't you do better for yourself?

[Non Stop Dancer]

And do you not suspect people who sit around doing fuck all all day might have issues that they need help with rather than condemnation?

[ProvanFan]

It is almost like he revels in his own misery.

Fuck all wrong with revels you snob

[bgmnts]

Nah fuck em, he got lucky in life so fuck all else.

[Marner and Me]

And do you not suspect people who sit around doing fuck all all day might have issues that they need help with rather than condemnation?

These pair are bone idle, perfectly able to work, just choose not too. However I find working keeps your mind occupied so you don't have time for issues to compound themselves into your mind. As you have other things to concentrate on.

[Non Stop Dancer]

So what would you do about it, if you could?

[bgmnts]

This is a windup right?

[Non Stop Dancer]

I think it must be.

[IsavedLatin]

I suppose Buckles' dad, to go back to him for a second, was ultimately materially motivated. I think Adam said he'd worked as a butler, seen how the other half lives, and decided to strive for a piece of that.

It was Buckles' granddad, I believe, who was the butler, and who educated his son (BadDad) according to how he'd seen the other half live. As you were!

[shh]

Politicising every life choice is certainly a 21st century value.

[thenoise]

'Self-made' men (and women) tend to be conservative because they are blind to the people that helped them, the public resources they made use of, the societal structures etc, even the good fortune, that enabled them to progress beyond the level of their peers. Nobody is half as self-made as they think they are.

[Non Stop Dancer]

I completely agree, and I say that as someone who could describe himself as a self made man if I were so inclined. It's not as though I've just woken up with money in the bank by mistake, but I can very firmly trace a handful of incidents like chance meetings, knowing certain people etc which if they didn't happen, I could just as easily be struggling in life, to the point where it almost makes me panic when I think about how close I came to missing those incidents.

[Noodle Lizard]

'Self-made' men (and women) tend to be conservative because they are blind to the people that helped them, the public resources they made use of, the societal structures etc, even the good fortune, that enabled them to progress beyond the level of their peers. Nobody is half as self-made as they think they are.

I don't think that's exclusively a conservative thing, but you're absolutely right and it's what drives me the most mad about this "You can achieve anything if you're as brilliant as me" approach.

Every "success story" seems to completely disregard luck, or "good fortune" as you say, even though this is often the primary force at work - not just in terms of privilege, but also just pure fucking cosmic chance. Being in the right place at the right time.

Obviously if you do absolutely nothing you can't expect anything to just happen out of nowhere, but there should be more emphasis on the idea that you could work your absolute arse off and do everything right and you might still not "make it" - in fact, for some aspirations, the odds are very much against you regardless of how much effort you put in.

Instead, the emphasis seems to be on following rules, systems and "attitudes", often sold in book or lecture form, and if you don't make it you only have yourself to blame because you weren't following it rigorously enough. The circular irony of those particular peddlers is that they often make more money from "teaching" the secrets to their success than they ever made from the success itself. It's a grift, at the end of the day.

[TheBrownBottle]

If self-improvement is seen as a conservative value, then we might as well give up.

Conservatism sits dead against self-improvement; it is about the acceptance of tradition and a person's place.  Too many are confusing right libertarianism with conservatism.  And libertarians love the 'self made man' image because it best suits their argument; it ignores the role society plays.  It justifies wealth remaining in the hands of a few, because they've 'earned' it. Liberals and libertarians would claim to be all about self-improvement - but their view usually just means 'grab as much as you can while you can'.

Socialism was always about self-improvement; it is ingrained in the history of the movement.  Self-improvement was seen as a given.  With some obvious exceptions, anyone sat with their thumb up their arse instead of working or learning, whilst claiming they're a socialist, then they've missed the point entirely, and are simply posturing.  There is a reason that early socialist movements campaigned for increasing school leaving ages, taking children out of factories, access to higher education.  An educated electorate is less likely to be hoodwinked by the owners of capital in positions of power.  Self improvement isn't about the wherewithal to buy a bigger telly.

[Ray Travez]

Every "success story" seems to completely disregard luck, or "good fortune" as you say, even though this is often the primary force at work - not just in terms of privilege, but also just pure fucking cosmic chance. Being in the right place at the right time.

Absolutely. Bannatyne's book is called 'anyone can do it,' which has always rankled with me. By 'it', he means 'become a million billionaire bastard.' It's like some guy who walks into a casino and puts 50 grand on number 32- it comes up and he wins 1.6 million, and then starts running a class teaching people how to get rich. It's very destructive.

I seem to recall a study where millionaires (when it meant something) were analysed for the personailty traits they shared. I forget what the results were but miserlyness was a factor.

[checkoutgirl]

That self improvement can be viewed as conservative or in any way political just boils my brain. It concerns me that people take instructions from government regarding deadly diseases when they should be more cautious.

I have to admit, people who educate themselves and remain right wing are either stupid or selfish. But politicising self improvement just seems mad. Maybe it's an English thing where everything is viewed through the lens of class or Tory/Labour.

I can understand this approach when I see Rees Mogg mark III on the front bench.

[mojo filters]

Are we discussing small c "conservatism" or the modern iteration of capital C "Conservative" policies? I think there's a notable distinction:

● Barry Goldwater won the 1964 Republican presidential nomination as a conservative, opposing the 1964 Civil Rights Act and anticipating an electorally emboldened LBJ passing the Voting Rights Act in 1965. There was nothing conservative about those landmark legislative achievements!

Those pieces of legislation exposed the (mostly southern) Dixiecrat dissenters, whilst splitting the northern Lincoln-esque traditional Republicans. The Goldwater position had been brewing since Brown v Board.

Remember that the post-civil war era of Reconstruction only lasted from 1865 to 1877, ending after Republican Rutherford Hayes compromised his prior abolitionist position to beat Samuel Tildon in the contentious election of 1876.

Lee Atwater famously encapsulated the changing tone of political discourse following Nixon's win in 1968, stating how language was forced to change from George Wallace Jr-esque overt usage of the N-word to cultural synonyms and dog-whistles.

With the exception of Harry Truman integrating the military and federal government in 1948, plus the New Deal policies that allowed FDR to beat Hoover in 1932 - there was a conservative political consensus from the end of Reconstruction up until the election of Ronald Reagan in 1980 (where he ironically picked Bush 41 as running mate, despite the latter describing Reagan's Friedman-esque, trickle-down economic prescriptions as "voodoo economics".)

● In the UK we had a conservative post-war policy consensus, from Clement Attlee's historic election in 1945 through Jim Callaghan's misjudged failure to call a general election in the fall of 1978 - leading to the politically toxic "winter of discontent."

Modern UK big "C" Conservatism effectively began with the election of Margaret Thatcher in 1979. I use the term advisedly, as Chancellor Dennis Healey was forced to successfully enact Milton Friedman type monitorist policy - in line with a key IMF loan, which was paid off ahead of schedule during Callaghan's tenure.

Thatcher had little regard for the post-war UK political consensus, which established and continued the NHS, Social Security, trades union representation and recognition et al. To my mind, this represents the beginning of the era of big C "Conservatism" - though I recognise that is not a perfect analysis.

Nevertheless it can be noted as an inflection point, where the general political culture shifted towards the positive and proactive notion of supposed "self-improvement" as a personal, as opposed to governmental responsibility.

Of course Norman Tebbit firmed this up with his famous speech at the 1981 Conservative party convention about his father finding work in the 1930s by "getting on his bike." He was also responsible for drafting successful anti-union legislation, ending the "closed shop" in 1982.


TL;DR - small c conservatism can perpetuate horrible longstanding policies, yet it can also endear a nation to once controversial, now popular institutions. Capitalise the C and it can engender reactionary policy. Losing the c/C word altogether can be a proven driver for aggressive progressive change.

Don't lose sight of the nuances!

[mojo filters]

PS - Trumpism (and modern popularism in places like Poland, Hungary etc) is a new political paradigm.

Trump ran in 2016 on a liberal economic agenda, whilst indulging culturally conservative grievances. This actually tracks with longstanding polling trends.

What does it mean for the future? Fuck knows...

[greenman]

'Self-made' men (and women) tend to be conservative because they are blind to the people that helped them, the public resources they made use of, the societal structures etc, even the good fortune, that enabled them to progress beyond the level of their peers. Nobody is half as self-made as they think they are.

I'm guessing that there's also a tendency that conservative "self made" people are much more likely to make their "self made" nature the defining feature of how they comment on politics which creates the impression that people with careers/lives along these lines are much more right wing on average than they really are.

I spose you could argue my career whilst not greatly successful(but very fulfilling to me) as a landscape photographer was very "self made" in that I didn't really have any public education in the arts beyond a disinterested F at GCSE. Basic literary and numeracy I spose helped but very obviously coming from a relatively well off middle class background did and honestly I did do it the old "learn on the dole" way as well, in-between applying for dead end jobs for a couple of years(and only getting the odd temp position) spending most of the rest of the time wandering the countryside or editing images on a PC.

[notjosh]

Liked reading Danny Dyer's take on this recently:

I am, in some ways, middle England's nightmare. I was a feral kid, a tagger with a spray can and felt tips, I had my first spliff before I was in double figures, lost my virginity when I was fourteen, had my first kid when unemployed, before I left my teens. I got one exam at school and I cheated on that.

My youth was spent on the streets of Custom House, drinking, playing football, arsing around. I was in regular trouble with the police – nicking, tagging, drugs, fighting. My parents had the police round the house regular and had to pick me up from the nick quite a few times.

Yet, really, I should represent middle England's hope. You see, the thing is, by luck, by the care of a great teacher and by the fact there was a drama school for underprivileged boys I could attend, I actually ended up making something of my life.

Some people might tell you, 'Everything I've ever got, I've got for myself.' Not so with me. It took people to invest time in me, energy and enthusiasm. It took a proper class teacher to encourage me to believe in myself.

[TheBrownBottle]

Liked reading Danny Dyer's take on this recently:

I have to admit I veer between thinking Dyer is a helmet and thinking he's probably alright.  This fits comfortably into the latter.

[Replies From View]

If all working class people just learned ballet then we wouldn't need food banks.

Imagine if Avatars 2-7 came out and all the characters were using their avataring technology to just go to ballet lessons.


And James Cameron was in the interviews sitting there like a hyper smug dyson, saying "I'm just ahead of the curve in terms of what audiences want."

[Mobbd]

If self-improvement is seen as a conservative value, then we might as well give up.

Conservatism sits dead against self-improvement; it is about the acceptance of tradition and a person's place.  Too many are confusing right libertarianism with conservatism.  And libertarians love the 'self made man' image because it best suits their argument; it ignores the role society plays.  It justifies wealth remaining in the hands of a few, because they've 'earned' it. Liberals and libertarians would claim to be all about self-improvement - but their view usually just means 'grab as much as you can while you can'.

Socialism was always about self-improvement; it is ingrained in the history of the movement.  Self-improvement was seen as a given.  With some obvious exceptions, anyone sat with their thumb up their arse instead of working or learning, whilst claiming they're a socialist, then they've missed the point entirely, and are simply posturing.  There is a reason that early socialist movements campaigned for increasing school leaving ages, taking children out of factories, access to higher education.  An educated electorate is less likely to be hoodwinked by the owners of capital in positions of power.  Self improvement isn't about the wherewithal to buy a bigger telly.

This is an excellent case against and it clarifies things a great deal. Thank you.

[Mobbd]

That self improvement can be viewed as conservative or in any way political just boils my brain. It concerns me that people take instructions from government regarding deadly diseases when they should be more cautious.

Sorry, what?

[Buelligan]

I have to admit I veer between thinking Dyer is a helmet and thinking he's probably alright.  This fits comfortably into the latter.

I guess Dyer's more of an actual human being, apparently, anyway.  Real human beings, even the very best of them are helmets sometimes, it's what marks us out from gods or PR creations.

On the stuff about one's success being indicated by the acquisition of wealth, I'd consider - is it likely that a capitalist society arranges itself to offer dog treats to the ones that accept training best? 

A nice little round of applause, a seat at the big boys' table, maybe some sort of golden necklace or badge from another famous monkey?  But look underneath these people, enter their homes (I do this because they pay me to clean their pointless, empty, houses) and you see just what being an abject loser looks like.  For all their unopened bottles of expensive shit and the empty ones in the bin.  Mostly sad people who've spent their lives following a treasure map they didn't understand and are finishing up completely lost.

[Botty Cello]

I have to admit I veer between thinking Dyer is a helmet and thinking he's probably alright.  This fits comfortably into the latter.

Is that because he tries to act hard but isn't ? So he's a semi hard on, which most people can go either way with ?

[JaDanketies]

if anyone looks at their success and says "I might've worked hard, but so do a lot of other people. I had a lot of luck and a lot of help," then they're almost certainly a GBOL in my books.

Something that poorer people / working class people certainly struggle with and that posher folks maybe don't - I don't know many - is asking for help, which involves getting over your pride. For instance, I remember once paying about £70 a month in overdraft and interest charges for several years because I had too much pride to ask my dad to borrow £1,500 off him, and it was only acid and a tonne of Dutch weed that convinced me to finally do it. It was Very Important that I did things by myself, and if that required throwing 5% of my salary at Barclays for no good reason, then so be it.

Or the amount of times I've stopped smoking weed and drinking by myself. I can foresee a time when I might eventually admit that it's something that I can't do without help. But I'm not there yet.

If I didn't have these working class values - just judging by some of the richest people in society - I might've asked my dad for a few million dollars to help start my property empire in Manhattan and then not even recognised that I needed help to get off the ground, and painted myself as a self-made man.

If there was one lesson I could give to people and could fully take on-board myself, it was well summarised by Tarantino in Pulp Fiction:

The night of the fight, you may feel a slight sting. That's pride fucking with you. Fuck pride. Pride only hurts, it never helps.

This whole self-made man fetish is harmful. You don't have to be a self-made man. It's okay to ask for help sometimes.

[GMTV]

I grew up surrounded by poverty. I can't really explain growing up in the inner city of Glasgow, the narrow frame and absolutely no expectation of any kind of effort or attempt at success. Was lucky enough to be blessed with a high functioning brain and realise I could make something of myself. One almighty slog but managed to make a decent life for myself.

Fuck the tories.

[jobotic]

Politicising every life choice is certainly a 21st century value.

I've thought about this and I can make no sense of it. It's just a sneer dressed up as words.

[TheBrownBottle]

Is that because he tries to act hard but isn't ? So he's a semi hard on, which most people can go either way with ?

Yeah, that's exactly it.  He seemed to be in every low-budget cockney gangster film of the mid-2000s, despite having absolutely no intimidating qualities whatsoever.  He'd then carry that persona into his life away from making pretend - which turned him from being a ridiculously miscast typecast cock-er-nee villain to a ludicrous self-parody.

He comes across well whenever he touches on social/political issues these days.  Quite like the bloke.  Sorry, 'lav the geezer'.