Hearing from Lexiteers

[Fambo Number Mive]

Larry Elliot, the Guardian's economics editor, who claims to be on the left, voted for Brexit. He's written a piece calling for the left to "stop mourning Brexit – and start seeing its huge potential"

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/31/the-left-brexit-economic-uk

For a start, it is clear that the UK has deep, structural economic problems despite – and in some cases because of – almost half a century of EU membership. Since 1973, the manufacturing base has shrivelled, the trade balance has been in permanent deficit, and the north-south divide has widened. Free movement of labour has helped entrench Britain's reputation as a low-investment, low-productivity economy. Brexit means that those farmers who want their fruit harvested will now have to do things that the left ought to want: pay higher wages or invest in new machinery.

Hasn't the manufacturing base shrivelled because of the shift to a mainly service economy under Thatcher, which has led to a growth in industries which have suffered particularly badly under COVID - perhaps if we hadn't lost so many manufacturing jobs in the 1980 and 1990s there wouldn't have been such high unemployment in 2020. Also, I imagine that farmers will try and get free labour from workfare rather than pay higher wages.

Leaving the EU means UK governments no longer have anywhere to hide. They have economic levers they can pull – procurement, tax, ownership, regulation, investment in infrastructure, subsidies for new industries, trade policy – and they will come under pressure to use them.

Many on the remainer left accept the EU has its faults, but they fear that Brexit will be the start of something worse: slash and burn deregulation that will make Britain a nastier place to live.

This, though, assumes that Britain will have rightwing governments in perpetuity. It used to be the left who welcomed change and the right that wanted things to remain the same. The inability to envisage what a progressive government could do with Brexit represents a political role reversal and a colossal loss of nerve.

We've had rightwing governments in power since 1975. The Guardian have consistently been anti the last left wing Labour leader and by contrast have supported a right wing Labour leader who mainly focuses on attacking the Labour left while failing to hold the Tories to account. The right is winning the culture war and when the media largely fail to hold the government responsible for the almost 1,000 people dying from COVID due to the pathetic government strategy, it feels like it will be harder than ever to beat the right. Elliot doesn't explain what "a progressive government could do with Brexit".

The Covid-19 crisis has demonstrated the importance of nation states and the limitations of the EU. Britain's economic response to the pandemic was speedy and coordinated: the Bank of England cut interest rates and boosted the money supply while the Treasury pumped billions into the NHS and the furlough scheme. It has taken months and months of wrangling for the eurozone to come up with the same sort of joined-up approach.

This is nonsense. The furlough scheme was not as generous as other European countries and Sunak delayed in announcing extensions meaning that some avoidable job losses too k place. It was disgraceful that furlough was not 100% - why should people lose out financially because it isn't safe for them to go to work? The economic response was dismal - what was needed was UBI and a bailout of industries such as non-essential retail and the service industries. However, that might have involved raising taxes on the super-rich and the wealthy people who read the Guardian and can afford the expensive items in their lifestyle supplements.

Comments are off on the article. How dare ordinary people comment on what Mr Elliot has written! Some of them might even be working class, and we can't have them on our nice upper middle class paper.

I think Elliott is the only Lexiteer in the media who has written recently. I think at least one trade union takes a Lexiteer stance.

[Famous Mortimer]

Much like not all atheists are Richard Dawkins fans, not all Lexit supporters think the Guardian is worth half a shit. You can think the way the Tories fucked it is bad, while still not wanting to be in the EU.

[katzenjammer]

Great post loaded with tangible benefits as usual

[Fambo Number Mive]

Much like not all atheists are Richard Dawkins fans, not all Lexit supporters think the Guardian is worth half a shit. You can think the way the Tories fucked it is bad, while still not wanting to be in the EU.

I know. I think Bob Crow was a Lexiteer, as of course the Labour left were in the early 1980's, in particular with the 1983 election manifesto (it would be interesting to consider how those of us who are Remainers would have voted in 1983, I think I'd compromise on leaving the EU if it meant a socialist government). Tony Benn has been a Lexiteer most of his life. However this is the only opinion piece I've seen from a Lexiteer recently and I thought it was worth discussing.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Larry Elliot is a much better read than nearly all Guardian journalists and his views noticeably jar with the Guardian's house style of preening bluetick dickwads recycling vacant stunted received opinion, all the better for it.

Obviously I disagree with him on the premise of Lexit in that just because new options have made themselves available through undertaking Brexit doesn't mean the UK is in any better position or its government inclined in any way to explore them, let alone harness them, anymore than the 'bootstrap' fallacy, that says anyone can become a rich entrepreneur purely because from an observational standpoint they are humans with free will.

How can someone with such a clear academic understanding of class also completely fail to spot the barriers that are place between these so called opportunities and those with the inclination to pursue them, post-Brexit? Baffling.

Just as we have emancipated ourselves from those dreaded bureaucrats, we have also done so by handing power to those who want to turn the UK into Victorian times but with debt-financed consumer luxuries. We are so far away from the potential world Elliot sees on the horizon. It more likely we will end up begging mill-owning style philanthropists for crumbs from their table, while being completely politically disenfranchised by the two parties of capital, turning in on each other as we race to the next nationalist xenophobic dead end in efforts to restore any sense of self-worth and political accountability.

I suppose he is right that anyone in favour of solidarity, federalism, justice for ordinary people etc does need to get a grip and start looking at opportunities, but that neglects to factor in that no-one with those interests holds the levers of power, and so the opportunities remain as low as they did before, lower arguably without Corbyn leading Labour.

[TheBrownBottle]

I know. I think Bob Crow was a Lexiteer, as of course the Labour left were in the early 1980's, in particular with the 1983 election manifesto (it would be interesting to consider how those of us who are Remainers would have voted in 1983, I think I'd compromise on leaving the EU if it meant a socialist government). Tony Benn has been a Lexiteer most of his life. However this is the only opinion piece I've seen from a Lexiteer recently and I thought it was worth discussing.

Benn, Skinner, Corbyn, McDonnell et al were (and in Skinner's case are) lexiteers. Had Corbyn not won the leadership race in 2015, I would have fully expected both him and McDonnell to be in the Labour leave brigade.  It makes perfect sense for a socialist to be a Lexiteer - but that also relies on perfect conditions.  Generally speaking, most of the people I know who are dyed-in-the-wool socialists are lexiteers.  I'm not on the grounds of pragmatism - the EU would've been an easier route for democratic socialism to take shape in Europe collectively, as well as offering free movement etc.  Lexit falls over easily on the basis that the UK doesn't have a democratic socialist govt, hasn't looked like having one, and is unlikely to have one in the near future.  So jumping into bed with the UKIP twats and taking part in what just seems an exercise in telling Johnny Foreigner to fuck off at the expensive of jobs seems utterly short-sighted to me.

That said, nothing irritates me more than the FBPE brigade - cosy liberal bellends, the 'remainiacs' who smugly tell the working classes how fucking stupid they are, and how utterly wonderful life in Britain was until the 2016 referendum.  The lack of self-awareness in terms of one of the  underlying reasons for Brexit - that being in part smug liberal twats patting themselves on the back about how lovely they are whilst hundreds of thousands are fed through foodbanks - is astonishing.

[TheBrownBottle]

Just as we have emancipated ourselves from those dreaded bureaucrats, we have also done so by handing power to those who want to turn the UK into Victorian times but with debt-financed consumer luxuries. We are so far away from the potential world Elliot sees on the horizon. It more likely we will end up begging mill-owning style philanthropists for crumbs from their table, while being completely politically disenfranchised by the two parties of capital, turning in on each other as we race to the next nationalist xenophobic dead end in efforts to restore any sense of self-worth and political accountability.

This went up while I was typing - spot on for me.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

I also agree with a lot of what you say above.

To add one more thing - I think there would be something pathetic about any attempt to muster a Rejoin campaign (which I believe is now underway already).

This is probably something that is doomed to fail and doomed to strangle any remotely left-leaning political enterprise through association and through the concessions that would be exacted purely for the right to share the same platform, let alone dictate future direction. One thing I do agree with some of these "It's done" type takes, is that we should not spend our time now trying to rejoin and instead we should invest our energies towards fighting the monster that is now unleashed.

What I find strangest is how Remainers right to the very end continue fronting up the same distrusted figures and the same message unchanged through despite having lost and lost and lost and lost.

[TheBrownBottle]

Lessons haven't been learned by zealous centrist rejoiners - and never will.  Any attempt by the Labour Party to rejoin in the next decade and a half will doom it to failure in a GE, irrespective of who is the leader or any other policies in the manifesto.  The centre-left should let this go and refocus on the real task at hand.  Leave whining about the glories of EU membership to James O'Brien or Ian Dunt.  Hammering the point hasn't exactly been fruitful for the Lib Dems - and twelve months ago the loon they had in charge thought they had a chance of forming a govt thanks to their hardline Brexit stance.  Before losing her seat.

Should the UK (or whatever form the nations of the UK take at that point) rejoin (and I think they all will, eventually - though I'd hope in that event that the EU has underwent significant reform) it would be in a generation, and would need a broad consensus and support in the polls to happen.  It doesn't seem like five minutes since the liberal intelligentsia were telling everyone that once support for a second referendum hit 60-70% then it would be time to push for it.  No such swing occurred, but it didn't stop them banging that drum.  I would think it would require those kind of numbers in the polls to be consistent to even consider a fresh referendum on rejoining.

I think Brexit is a fucking disaster, and an act of self-harm, but opposing it vehemently is clearly not a vote winner.  It did massive damage to Labour in 2019 - and this was something that former lexiteers like Corbyn were correct about. 

[Zetetic]

How can someone with such a clear academic understanding of class also completely fail to spot the barriers that are place between these so called opportunities and those with the inclination to pursue them, post-Brexit? Baffling.

I think the blindspot when it comes to the class status owner-occupiers is shifting amongst some London-based commentators, and may yet pierce the more thoughtful bits of The Guardian.

It's worth noting what isn't mentioned in the article. The only actual place that is mentioned is London.

[TheBrownBottle]

Also, I hope that swathes of the electorate aren't persuaded by the inevitable economic shrinking that Brexit will bring is reason to start taking money from the pockets of the poor - if the worst predictions are correct and the economy shrinks by 5%, that doesn't mean that the UK is suddenly an economic backwater and can therefore justify large numbers living in poverty.  The 'tightening of belts' is Tory economics 101, and the liberals who happily jumped into bed with them a decade ago now have added post-Brexit spite, and will no doubt relish the opportunity to punish those they see as having voted the UK out of the EU.

[Ferris]

What I find strangest is how Remainers right to the very end continue fronting up the same distrusted figures and the same message unchanged through despite having lost and lost and lost and lost.

I have also found this baffling. My family are all centrist kieth-adoring FBPE-ers who voted libdem and (even now!) bang on about how they are labour voters "normally" but can't stand that 'orrible mr corbyn.

From about 2017 onwards, there was this really strange refusal to deal with reality as it was, not how they'd like it to be. Every stupid petition, every stupid grauniad article belittling the ignorant working class, ad hominem attacks on farage (as if you need to rely on something ad hominem), "it was an advisory referendum!" yeah until parliament passed a binding legislation with a handy majority, every ludicrous high court case "ooh this'll be the one!"

It was deeply unsettling, and I see it reflected in how maga lunatics refuse to accept trumps lost and keep setting the next date to overturn the election or file a #kraken lawsuit, unbowed by loss after loss and grift after grift.

I go on about it on here a lot, but I do have to mute my family whatsapp threads more often than I'd like because I find it so infuriating and would rather leave them to it for a day or so and blame child rearing or the time difference rather than engage.

[dissolute ocelot]

Elliot is definitely one of the better Guardian columnists but he doesn't make much sense. The whole EU has had poor economic performance for 20 or 30 years but that doesn't prove we would be better outside. But part of the problem is lack of comparisons and lack of proof. Who else would we be?

And the idea that without the EU we'll have nobody to blame is shit: when used by Scot Nats and Brexiteers. There's always someone to blame (immigrants, poor, Jews, trade unions, anarchists, gays, elites, women, foreigners) and if you think blaming everything on others is a legitimate tactic, fuck off.

[Zetetic]

The UK's response to the economic implications of COVID-19 are perhaps worth analysing seriously as a guide to the future.

Notably, it has been extremely poor at protecting SMEs and extremely good at propping up the housing market.

[Elderly Sumo Prophecy]

It's new years eve, can't you have a night off from the great struggle? Have a Baileys or something.

[Kankurette]

If people say they voted Brexit because they wanted to get rid of all the Pakis or because they want to end political correctness, then damn right I'm going to call them stupid or racist. And yes, people have said this.

[TheBrownBottle]

If people say they voted Brexit because they wanted to get rid of all the Pakis or because they want to end political correctness, then damn right I'm going to call them stupid or racist. And yes, people have said this.

But they are stupid and racist.  They're not looking to give Westminster a bloody nose, and haven't swallowed a line about NHS funding.  I don't see anything wrong about calling someone out who wants to 'get rid of all the Pakis'.  Fucking hell, they're stupid even for racists.

It's the sneering at the wider electorate that's the issue.  And it turns out, calling them stupid usually makes people double-down. 

[Zetetic]

Might start telling the wider electorate that they're just too smart.

[Buelligan]

It's the sneering at the wider electorate that's the issue.  And it turns out, calling them stupid usually makes people double-down.

Heheh, so, as Z subtly implies, you're advocating fooling them into making better choices in future by pretending this enormously destructive thing they've done in the pride and cow-like ignorance of their hearts is superfine.  Interesting strategy, I look forward to the refreshing debate on the death penalty or witch burning.

It's not about sneering, it's about reality.  If someone makes cretinous destructive choices, I don't think its wrong to point that out, unless you actually despise their intelligence and believe the only way to corral the morons away from self-destruction is by lying to them.

[Zetetic]

I think you give me too much credit for such a silly response.

Some of it is sneering, I can admit that.

[TheBrownBottle]

Heheh, so, as Z subtly implies, you're advocating fooling them into making better choices in future by pretending this enormously destructive thing they've done in the pride and cow-like ignorance of their hearts is superfine.  Interesting strategy, I look forward to the refreshing debate on the death penalty or witch burning.

It's not about sneering, it's about reality.  If someone makes cretinous destructive choices, I don't think its wrong to point that out, unless you actually despise their intelligence and believe the only way to corral the morons away from self-destruction is by lying to them.

I'm saying that telling people they're stupid is unlikely to win them round to your way of thinking.  I'm also not advocating lying to them.  Brexit is a bad idea; I don't suggest otherwise, or saying otherwise.  There's a massive difference between explaining and sneering (or gloating when it all inevitable goes arse over tit).  Most who voted for Brexit aren't stupid - in my view, they've made an error.  Some will be stupid, some racist. 

And plenty of those who voted for Brexit will have done so not because they're racist clowns, but because they thought it would result in greater democratic control, or money for the NHS, or quite simply they're socialists who (correctly) view the EU as a closed shop, bosses club.

Maybe telling them they're stupid, racist cunts is the best strategy.  I don't know.  I know plenty in the old Labour heartlands were made to feel like that between 2017-19, and that worked just dandy.

[Zetetic]

because they thought it would result in greater democratic control, or money for the NHS, or quite simply they're socialists who (correctly) view the EU as a closed shop, bosses club.

These are all the reasons of a clown, but I do appreciate you're not allowed to say that (if you want someone not to be a clown) and there's absolutely no point doing so now anyway.

I know plenty in the old Labour heartlands were made to feel like that between 2017-19, and that worked just dandy.

As well as changing material conditions within those heartlands.

But I don't disagree that centrists or Remainers or liberals[nb]And I don't mean to exclude myself from this collection.[/nb] gave them plenty of excuses to shift their political identities. (Noting the effect of Mr Corbyn as well, although of course you might well argue that it's the effect of the Mr Corbyn conjured by a media consensus rather than the man himself.)

[Buelligan]

I'm saying that telling people they're stupid is unlikely to win them round to your way of thinking.  I'm also not advocating lying to them.  Brexit is a bad idea; I don't suggest otherwise, or saying otherwise.  There's a massive difference between explaining and sneering (or gloating when it all inevitable goes arse over tit).  Most who voted for Brexit aren't stupid - in my view, they've made an error.  Some will be stupid, some racist. 

And plenty of those who voted for Brexit will have done so not because they're racist clowns, but because they thought it would result in greater democratic control, or money for the NHS, or quite simply they're socialists who (correctly) view the EU as a closed shop, bosses club.

Maybe telling them they're stupid, racist cunts is the best strategy.  I don't know.  I know plenty in the old Labour heartlands were made to feel like that between 2017-19, and that worked just dandy.

Bolded bit first - or quite simply they're socialists who (correctly) view the EU as a closed shop, bosses club - ffs, perhaps we need less simplistic analysis.  By the same token, the world is a closed shop, bosses club, should we leave or change it?  Too much putting things simply, simply put by the bosses to make sure the bosses' club stays in control.  Not enough honesty.  In or out, it's still a bosses' club.  Divided we fall.

Yes, telling people they've behaved like easily-led imbeciles is never popular (who thought?) but telling them they're super-strategists when they blunder about destroying not just their own best interest but that of others too, is taking patronisation to a whole new level.  What is to be gained?  A repetition?  Votes in the short term, at least - this is the kind of truly dangerous short-term scamming that's brought Britain to the pass it's at.  Is that what leaders are for?  IMO, no.

[greenman]

I have also found this baffling. My family are all centrist kieth-adoring FBPE-ers who voted libdem and (even now!) bang on about how they are labour voters "normally" but can't stand that 'orrible mr corbyn.

From about 2017 onwards, there was this really strange refusal to deal with reality as it was, not how they'd like it to be. Every stupid petition, every stupid grauniad article belittling the ignorant working class, ad hominem attacks on farage (as if you need to rely on something ad hominem), "it was an advisory referendum!" yeah until parliament passed a binding legislation with a handy majority, every ludicrous high court case "ooh this'll be the one!"

It was deeply unsettling, and I see it reflected in how maga lunatics refuse to accept trumps lost and keep setting the next date to overturn the election or file a #kraken lawsuit, unbowed by loss after loss and grift after grift.

I go on about it on here a lot, but I do have to mute my family whatsapp threads more often than I'd like because I find it so infuriating and would rather leave them to it for a day or so and blame child rearing or the time difference rather than engage.

The obvious answer really is that Corbyn's presense caused a massive moral problem for these people, he represented most of the causes they claimed to follow and did so in a far more active fashion they'd always been told was impossible.

There were really two choices that point, either back Corbyn and reject centralism or look for something else to cover the moral black hole and I think remain was clearly it. The idea that remain was so important that it trumped everything else was the way to reject Corbyn but still feel you were taking a moral position.

[Buelligan]

That's a very interesting idea.

[Huxleys Babkins]

Bolded bit first - or quite simply they're socialists who (correctly) view the EU as a closed shop, bosses club - ffs, perhaps we need less simplistic analysis.  By the same token, the world is a closed shop, bosses club, should we leave or change it?  Too much putting things simply, simply put by the bosses to make sure the bosses' club stays in control.  Not enough honesty.  In or out, it's still a bosses' club.  Divided we fall.

Yes, telling people they've behaved like easily-led imbeciles is never popular (who thought?) but telling them they're super-strategists when they blunder about destroying not just their own best interest but that of others too, is taking patronisation to a whole new level.  What is to be gained?  A repetition?  Votes in the short term, at least - this is the kind of truly dangerous short-term scamming that's brought Britain to the pass it's at.  Is that what leaders are for?  IMO, no.

Spot on.

Plus the talk of being patronised is a smokescreen anyway. They just want to shut down left-leaning talking points and the easiest way to do that is to frame them as elitist, out of touch and patronising in the hope that we feel too embarrassed to dig any deeper to discover that their "not racist, just very real concerns about the economic and social impact of immigration" simply boil down to "don't like pakis".

We talk about lifelong Labour voters turning Tory and voting against their best interests as if they were tricked. As if they couldn't see the hypocrisy and contradictions in the arguments of the ghouls they voted for. As if they couldn't see that they were "sticking it to the establishment" by voting for some different faces from that self same establishment. And it's nonsense. They can see it as clear as day. They simply don't care. They saw a golden opportunity to finally stick it to people they don't like and they grabbed it with both hands.

[TheBrownBottle]

Bolded bit first - or quite simply they're socialists who (correctly) view the EU as a closed shop, bosses club - ffs, perhaps we need less simplistic analysis.  By the same token, the world is a closed shop, bosses club, should we leave or change it?  Too much putting things simply, simply put by the bosses to make sure the bosses' club stays in control.  Not enough honesty.  In or out, it's still a bosses' club.  Divided we fall.

Yes, telling people they've behaved like easily-led imbeciles is never popular (who thought?) but telling them they're super-strategists when they blunder about destroying not just their own best interest but that of others too, is taking patronisation to a whole new level.  What is to be gained?  A repetition?  Votes in the short term, at least - this is the kind of truly dangerous short-term scamming that's brought Britain to the pass it's at.  Is that what leaders are for?  IMO, no.

'Bosses' club' was Dennis Skinner's description of the EU.  A position shared by Corbyn, McDonnell et al. I didn't think it was an obscure reference, but perhaps it is.

I haven't suggested telling people they're super-strategists.  I haven't suggested lying.  In voting to leave I think they've made a huge error.  For some reason you're intent on suggesting that I want to lie or tell people they're super-smart when I haven't written that once, nor implied it.  Please stop arguing points that I haven't made, then using that to have a pop. I'm only suggesting not sneering at people who have voted against their own interests - it doesn't help.  I see nothing wrong with telling people they've made a mistake and trying to explain why.  I also see nothing wrong with trying to understand why they voted that way.  I've no idea why that represents 'scamming' people. 

[TheBrownBottle]

The obvious answer really is that Corbyn's presense caused a massive moral problem for these people, he represented most of the causes they claimed to follow and did so in a far more active fashion they'd always been told was impossible.

There were really two choices that point, either back Corbyn and reject centralism or look for something else to cover the moral black hole and I think remain was clearly it. The idea that remain was so important that it trumped everything else was the way to reject Corbyn but still feel you were taking a moral position.

That's an excellent point - and I think you're probably right.  I've thought similarly for a while.  Plenty voted for Labour tribally for a long time - long after heavy industry and unionism had left their towns etc.  It's easy to convince social conservatives to vote for a Blairite/blue Labour position - confronted with an actual left winger in charge and off they go to the Tories.  Labour safe seats gave a false sense of how left wing a lot of the Labour heartlands are; Corbyn and Brexit were constantly cited as the reasons they switched their votes.

The problem is: where do you go from there? 

[Zetetic]

t's easy to convince social conservatives to vote for a Blairite/blue Labour position - confronted with an actual left winger in charge and off they go to the Tories.

Certainly when they're retiree (or near-retiree) owner-occupiers.

It's not just that "industry and unionism left their towns", it's that they changed their relationship to capital and labour.

greenman's suggestion that we saw a similar, but opposed re-Brexit, shift amongst - I assume - younger, professional, owner-occupiers in cities and commuter belts is an interesting mirror.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Labour did reasonably well in 2017 in those red wall seats as all parties had committed to seeing through Brexit and the campaign didn't really focus on those issues.

Most of the stuff Labour were offering was still of a left leaning economic protectionist angle that people from abandoned communities like, and will do so again if Labour bother to try.

It looks quite clearly as though Starmer is trying to win through a reheated Blairite strategy of middle England plus London plus people with no-one else to vote for.