Hearing from Lexiteers

[Buelligan]

'Bosses' club' was Dennis Skinner's description of the EU.  A position shared by Corbyn, McDonnell et al. I didn't think it was an obscure reference, but perhaps it is.

I haven't suggested telling people they're super-strategists.  I haven't suggested lying.  In voting to leave I think they've made a huge error.  For some reason you're intent on suggesting that I want to lie or tell people they're super-smart when I haven't written that once, nor implied it.  Please stop arguing points that I haven't made, then using that to have a pop. I'm only suggesting not sneering at people who have voted against their own interests - it doesn't help.  I see nothing wrong with telling people they've made a mistake and trying to explain why.  I also see nothing wrong with trying to understand why they voted that way.  I've no idea why that represents 'scamming' people.

I'm sorry, my intention is to communicate my thoughts about this.  It is not to have a personal battle with the aim of destroying you as a person.  This is not personal, it's a conversation about ideas.

The bosses' club thing is madness.  I love the Beast.  I don't believe he's infallible but more relevant, just because I admire him, that term, in isolation, should not become wisdom, unquestioned. 

Is it true that the world is a bosses' club (every bit as much as the EU)?  I think it is.  If it is and also true that socialists' and workers' strength is in unity, solidarity, allowing ourselves to be divided into smaller groups is always going to harm our interest.

I thought I made the scamming comment clear, if you pander to people harming their own best interest, in order to get their votes, you are scamming them.

[TheBrownBottle]

Certainly when they're retiree (or near-retiree) owner-occupiers.

It's not just that "industry and unionism left their towns", it's that they changed their relationship to capital and labour.

greenman's suggestion that we saw a similar, but opposed re-Brexit, shift amongst - I assume - younger, professional, owner-occupiers in cities and commuter belts is an interesting mirror.

Yes, agreed re the first point.

Re the second - I had a conversation with a friend recently where we talked about similarities with the political shifts in the US in the 60s-80s.  How the 'southern strategy' shifted the white working classes away from the Democrats to the Republicans, with movement in the other direction amongst wealthier suburbanites on the coasts, and whether what's happening in England & Wales is something similar.

[Johnny Yesno]

Also, I hope that swathes of the electorate aren't persuaded by the inevitable economic shrinking that Brexit will bring is reason to start taking money from the pockets of the poor - if the worst predictions are correct and the economy shrinks by 5%, that doesn't mean that the UK is suddenly an economic backwater and can therefore justify large numbers living in poverty.  The 'tightening of belts' is Tory economics 101, and the liberals who happily jumped into bed with them a decade ago now have added post-Brexit spite, and will no doubt relish the opportunity to punish those they see as having voted the UK out of the EU.

I hope so too but I think it is a vain hope. The tories have been building the narrative for Austerity 2.0 for some time and Kieth and his starmtroopers and other 'centrists' are going along with it.

[Johnny Yesno]

The obvious answer really is that Corbyn's presense caused a massive moral problem for these people, he represented most of the causes they claimed to follow and did so in a far more active fashion they'd always been told was impossible.

There were really two choices that point, either back Corbyn and reject centralism or look for something else to cover the moral black hole and I think remain was clearly it. The idea that remain was so important that it trumped everything else was the way to reject Corbyn but still feel you were taking a moral position.

And they were the very people who had the brass neck to call Corbyn supporters cultists.

[Zetetic]

Most of the stuff Labour were offering was still of a left leaning economic protectionist angle that people from abandoned communities like, and will do so again if Labour bother to try.

Certainly many people; I don't want to convince myself there that isn't a sufficiently large population of people aged <40[nb]Probably a bit older, certainly by the next election.[/nb] in many of these places that might be brought to vote more reliably for Labour.

And we might hope that the last year (and this year) might put off a bunch of people who started voting Tory in the last 5 years from voting next time.

[TheBrownBottle]

I'm sorry, my intention is to communicate my thoughts about this.  It is not to have a personal battle with the aim of destroying you as a person.  This is not personal, it's a conversation about ideas.

The bosses' club thing is madness.  I love the Beast.  I don't believe he's infallible but more relevant, just because I admire him, that term, in isolation, should not become wisdom, unquestioned. 

Is it true that the world is a bosses' club (every bit as much as the EU)?  I think it is.  If it is and also true that socialists' and workers' strength is in unity, solidarity, allowing ourselves to be divided into smaller groups is always going to harm our interest.

I thought I made the scamming comment clear, if you pander to people harming their own best interest, in order to get their votes, you are scamming them.

That's fair.

For me, I would have always wanted to remained a member of the EU - I'm an internationalist.  And it remains a vehicle which could be easily altered by the member states should their electorates start to vote in their own self-interests and actually elect democratic socialist govts.

I definitely wouldn't pander to those who voted to leave - I wouldn't want to see Labour policy altered to reflect anti-immigrant sentiments, as an example.  One of the many issues with Brexit is that it's a Tory Brexit - it's nasty, divisive, jingoistic shite.

[Zetetic]

Minor aside - I probably completely fail to understand the extent to which UKIP 2005-2015 was a gateway for 50+ Labour voters (and non-voters?) to transition to Tory voters in 2017 and 2019.

[TheBrownBottle]

Minor aside - I probably completely fail to understand the extent to which UKIP 2005-2015 was a gateway for 50+ Labour voters (and non-voters?) to transition to Tory voters in 2017 and 2019.

Just my take (I've nothing to back this up), I'm guessing that it was easier to leave Labour for UKIP as it meant that dead forebears would not start spinning in their graves at their descendants voting Tory.  And once they had voted for someone else, and they realised that the northern graveyards weren't filled with breakdancing zombies, they felt able to make the final leap.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Short answer

- Identity and National pride in a life of abandonment and desolation becomes an overly important crutch
- Othering, seeing the administrative white collar class as being behind their predicament, anything from Brussels bureaucrats to human rights lawyers to the local council (see all the comments like 'they don't have a clue about the real world')
- Decades of tabloid softening up that went unchecked under Blair, and accelerates by his idiotic failure to plan for settlement of migrants sensibly
- An outlet legitimising xenophobia and resentment while also notionally about restoring pride and getting the country back is about the most appealing thing you could find for a 50+ Labour voter from an ex industrial town or port

The only way Labour are getting them back is through outright warfare on capitalism. Good luck Keith

[greenman]

That's an excellent point - and I think you're probably right.  I've thought similarly for a while.  Plenty voted for Labour tribally for a long time - long after heavy industry and unionism had left their towns etc.  It's easy to convince social conservatives to vote for a Blairite/blue Labour position - confronted with an actual left winger in charge and off they go to the Tories.  Labour safe seats gave a false sense of how left wing a lot of the Labour heartlands are; Corbyn and Brexit were constantly cited as the reasons they switched their votes.

The problem is: where do you go from there?

I think your talking about two quite different groups there though, the Labour heartlands vote and the middle class liberial Labour vote.

The success in 2017 was I'd say down to being able to bring these two voter pools together, the Labour heartlands was interested in left wing politics provided it respected the referendum and a lot would accept a softer Brexit if it went hand in hand with those measures plus Corbyn himself carried a lot of the same anti establishment appeal Brexit did. Meanwhile the middle class Labour vote would accept a soft Brexit over the harder Tory alternative.

Post 2017 I think there was a massive effort by the establishment to make sure this couldn't happen again, the media, the lib dems and the right of Labour became more and more fixated on Brexit and Remain became more and more a key ideology that could no longer be compromised. SO Labour ended up with a choice and chose the middle class voters but lost the heartlands.

[Non Stop Dancer]

I'm as anti-Brexit as anyone and don't really see a single benefit, but the people on twitter and various comments sections crying about it and saying "Look after our star for us" etc just look pathetic. Let's just give it a crack and see if we can make the best out of the situation, eh?

[Johnny Yesno]

I'm as anti-Brexit as anyone and don't really see a single benefit, but the people on twitter and various comments sections crying about it and saying "Look after our star for us" etc just look pathetic. Let's just give it a crack and see if we can make the best out of the situation, eh?

Hmm. Join a union.

[TheBrownBottle]

Short answer

- Identity and National pride in a life of abandonment and desolation becomes an overly important crutch
- Othering, seeing the administrative white collar class as being behind their predicament, anything from Brussels bureaucrats to human rights lawyers to the local council (see all the comments like 'they don't have a clue about the real world')
- Decades of tabloid softening up that went unchecked under Blair, and accelerates by his idiotic failure to plan for settlement of migrants sensibly
- An outlet legitimising xenophobia and resentment while also notionally about restoring pride and getting the country back is about the most appealing thing you could find for a 50+ Labour voter from an ex industrial town or port

The only way Labour are getting them back is through outright warfare on capitalism. Good luck Keith

Outright (democratic) warfare on capitalism is the answer for me too - but I think it's the 50+ former Labour voters who may be the dead alley electorally.  I think your analysis is right, but at this point those voters are likely set in their opinions and new voting patterns.  Getting younger voters motivated and out is what is needed - that's where 2017 went right.  Nationalisation, investment, affordable housing, decent contracts & pay aren't just correct, they're vote-winners amongst younger workers.

[Buelligan]

I'm as anti-Brexit as anyone and don't really see a single benefit, but the people on twitter and various comments sections crying about it and saying "Look after our star for us" etc just look pathetic. Let's just give it a crack and see if we can make the best out of the situation, eh?

Personally, I don't give a flying fuck what those FBPE twats blather about, they don't sway my vision, ever, and agreeing with them that leaving Europe is an absolute fucking disaster is not a problem for me, because I also agree with them that air is useful for breathing.  Obviously, we have to make the best of it but I do feel that people worrying about whether their businesses will face more red tape or whether they'll queue longer at airports ARE MISSING THE POINT and are, perhaps, a bit self-obsessed.  This thing, if it could only be limited to outcomes like that, wouldn't be such a problem.  Thing is, it won't.

Short answer

- Identity and National pride in a life of abandonment and desolation becomes an overly important crutch
- Othering, seeing the administrative white collar class as being behind their predicament, anything from Brussels bureaucrats to human rights lawyers to the local council (see all the comments like 'they don't have a clue about the real world')
- Decades of tabloid softening up that went unchecked under Blair, and accelerates by his idiotic failure to plan for settlement of migrants sensibly
- An outlet legitimising xenophobia and resentment while also notionally about restoring pride and getting the country back is about the most appealing thing you could find for a 50+ Labour voter from an ex industrial town or port

The only way Labour are getting them back is through outright warfare on capitalism. Good luck Keith

Absolutely.

[Ferris]

The obvious answer really is that Corbyn's presense caused a massive moral problem for these people, he represented most of the causes they claimed to follow and did so in a far more active fashion they'd always been told was impossible.

There were really two choices that point, either back Corbyn and reject centralism or look for something else to cover the moral black hole and I think remain was clearly it. The idea that remain was so important that it trumped everything else was the way to reject Corbyn but still feel you were taking a moral position.

This is very likely bang on the money.

[Kankurette]

I'm saying that telling people they're stupid is unlikely to win them round to your way of thinking.  I'm also not advocating lying to them.  Brexit is a bad idea; I don't suggest otherwise, or saying otherwise.  There's a massive difference between explaining and sneering (or gloating when it all inevitable goes arse over tit).  Most who voted for Brexit aren't stupid - in my view, they've made an error.  Some will be stupid, some racist. 

And plenty of those who voted for Brexit will have done so not because they're racist clowns, but because they thought it would result in greater democratic control, or money for the NHS, or quite simply they're socialists who (correctly) view the EU as a closed shop, bosses club.

Maybe telling them they're stupid, racist cunts is the best strategy.  I don't know.  I know plenty in the old Labour heartlands were made to feel like that between 2017-19, and that worked just dandy.

If you're a minority, it is very galling being told you have to coddle racists. No, I don't think everyone who voted Brexit is racist, I know for a fact that isn't true, but I've had four bloody years of being told 'oh you should be a bit nicer to people who hate anyone different to them' and I'm just tired of it. I've tried. It doesn't work. This is why I'm not a political activist. I also hate being made to feel like it was MY fault the UK shot itself in the foot when I don't have that much power to begin with.

Who was going around the red wall areas shouting 'you're all stupid racists'? I mean, fucking hell, Corbyn HIMSELF was pro-Brexit, as was Dennis Skinner, it still didn't help either of them.

Also, did Lexiters REALLY think the Tories care about the EU being a bosses' club? That's not why they left and it never was.

And calling me a terrorist apologist or paedophile apologist isn't going to make me vote Conservative. It goes both ways. Likewise, calling me a Remoaner is not going to make me go 'oh you're right, I'm sorry, I should have voted for Brexit'.

I'm only suggesting not sneering at people who have voted against their own interests - it doesn't help.

That ship has long sailed.

[Kankurette]

Personally, I don't give a flying fuck what those FBPE twats blather about, they don't sway my vision, ever, and agreeing with them that leaving Europe is an absolute fucking disaster is not a problem for me, because I also agree with them that air is useful for breathing.  Obviously, we have to make the best of it but I do feel that people worrying about whether their businesses will face more red tape or whether they'll queue longer at airports ARE MISSING THE POINT and are, perhaps, a bit self-obsessed.  This thing, if it could only be limited to outcomes like that, wouldn't be such a problem.  Thing is, it won't.

This. All of it.

Also not an FBPE type. I always avoided them.

[TheBrownBottle]

If you're a minority, it is very galling being told you have to coddle racists. No, I don't think everyone who voted Brexit is racist, I know for a fact that isn't true, but I've had four bloody years of being told 'oh you should be a bit nicer to people who hate anyone different to them' and I'm just tired of it. I've tried. It doesn't work. This is why I'm not a political activist. I also hate being made to feel like it was MY fault the UK shot itself in the foot when I don't have that much power to begin with.

Again, I'm happy to reiterate - no one should have to coddle racists.  Their hatred should be confronted, not pandered to - I'm sure I made that clear.  The stupid and the racist (and combinations of those two) can be written off.  The racists in particular - they can get fucked. They deserve contempt, not niceties.  It's everyone else who can't be written off. 

And Brexit is not your fault at all - I'd urge you not to think that.

[TheBrownBottle]

.
And calling me a terrorist apologist or paedophile apologist isn't going to make me vote Conservative. It goes both ways. Likewise, calling me a Remoaner is not going to make me go 'oh you're right, I'm sorry, I should have voted for Brexit'.

Yes, insulting people is unlikely to persuade them to change their vote.  That was my point.

[Kankurette]

My point was that nobody ever tells anyone on the right to stop swearing at people and laughing at them and calling them names, it's always the left who have to take the higher ground.

[TheBrownBottle]

My point was that nobody ever tells anyone on the right to stop swearing at people and laughing at them and calling them names, it's always the left who have to take the higher ground.

I know what you mean, but the right do get called out on it - it's often that they simply don't care, and flat-out deny the accusation whilst doing nothing to actually consider their behaviour (it's easy to spot the right in this respect on social media - for them, the question 'how was that homophobic/racist/antisemitic/sexist?' etc is rhetorical.  They don't give a shit about the answer, and are most likely aware that the comment was one of those things).

I wouldn't worry about calling racists etc abusive terms.

[Paul Calf]

My point was that nobody ever tells anyone on the right to stop swearing at people and laughing at them and calling them names, it's always the left who have to take the higher ground.

That's because the right are in the ascendancy and you have to be polite to the people in power or they punish you for it.

Sorry, but this is the truth lurking behind every sociopolitical interaction of the last 15 years.



EDIT: at least 15 years. I'm not including early New Labour or Thatcherism because...well, I'm not sure why.

[Johnny Yesno]

Corbyn HIMSELF was pro-Brexit

Not when he was Labour leader, he wasn't. The people who keep peddling this myth don't have clean hands either.

Novara meet Yanis Varoufakis live at The World Transformed: https://youtu.be/9Ck0Jg92bPk?t=14m36s