Topic: That would be an epidemiological matter: the situation in Ireland

[buttgammon]

In short, we're fucked. We've lost control of testing, we've lost control of the restrictions and it sounds like we are increasingly losing control of the healthcare system. There have been a series of catastrophic decisions made by an incompetent government that is only interested in the cosmetic side of politics and is obsessed with appeasing the sort of knuckleheads who bang on about gyms and the suicide rate. The advice from the experts has been clear and stark but they've twice failed to implement it, only having to change their minds a few weeks later when cases skyrocketed.

In the early months of the pandemic, it felt like we were insulated against the worst of the disease but somewhere along the line, it has gone badly wrong. At the risk of being reductive, it's hard not to see idiotic political vanity as the biggest problem here. And here we are with thousands of new cases a day, on the brink of disaster. It's a disgrace, and it makes me very angry. This is the same sort of negligence that is happening in Britain.

[peanutbutter]

Am I right in thinking both sides of the current coalition over there are kinda thinking they can blame the whole thing on each other?

[Pinball]

My diagnosis for the situation is SPS- Shit Politician Syndrome. Oh, and corporate lobbying, obviously, as politicians are suckers of Satan's pecker.

[buttgammon]

Am I right in thinking both sides of the current coalition over there are kinda thinking they can blame the whole thing on each other?

I imagine that's going to happen when this is all over. Fine Gael will point out that they did better when they were solely in charge and Fianna Fáil will point out Leo Varadkar's impulsiveness and obsession with 'optics' have damaged things. Meanwhile, the Greens will fade into obscurity.

A point my partner made recently is that things started to go downhill when this government was formed. We had a caretaker government at the start of it and lobbying would've been a pointless endeavour. Since the coalition came in, vested interests have become noisier and harder to ignore, because they're much more active at working with a permanent government. Since that point, the scientists have been pushed aside.

[Pinball]

If corporate lobbying was banned our politics would vastly improve IMO.

[buttgammon]

If corporate lobbying was banned our politics would vastly improve IMO.

Totally agree. In a small but wealthy country like Ireland it has a particularly corrosive effect, and I suspect this is one of the reasons why successive governments have treated the place like a tax haven-cum-theme park.

[Wonderful Butternut]

Christmas was always going to be a bit of a clusterfuck, but it's like they said "fuck it, let's not bother. Everyone go on the piss!".

I know you can't leave hospitality, non-essential retail etc. etc. closed forever, but the 3 weeks they were open probably cost 'em 3 months.

3300 cases. Our peak was 1500. We had fuck all during the summer and even after a September spike we'd got back to 300-400.

Supposed to be starting in a new position in January (temporary arrangement for 6 months), but the job involves a lot of social contacts which means I won't be able to do half of it until March at the earliest.

[buttgammon]

The message from government really felt like 'you can do whatever you want, it's grand - nothing bad can happen over Christmas', and it was insane. About a week before Christmas, I cut across Grafton Street, saw the sea of people and had a surge of dread.

89 hospital admissions in the 24 hours up to 8pm yesterday and 30 people on ventilators. I live near a major Dublin hospital and I've noticed much more activity with ambulances and helicopters over the last day or two. There was an eerie period around March or April last year when the streets and skies were deserted, and the only things you heard were sirens and whirring helicopters.

[Captain Poodle Basher]

The message from government really felt like 'you can do whatever you want, it's grand - nothing bad can happen over Christmas', and it was insane. About a week before Christmas, I cut across Grafton Street, saw the sea of people and had a surge of dread.

89 hospital admissions in the 24 hours up to 8pm yesterday and 30 people on ventilators. I live near a major Dublin hospital and I've noticed much more activity with ambulances and helicopters over the last day or two. There was an eerie period around March or April last year when the streets and skies were deserted, and the only things you heard were sirens and whirring helicopters.

That's letting the general population off the hook though.

In the run up to Christmas, I heard nothing but "Yeah, we'll have a normal Christmas and pay for it in January." conversations like it was going a bit mad with the old credit card and not taking a gamble on catching Covid or not.

Case in point, I was out doing a grocery run on New Year's Eve and was fighting my way through the crowds and queuing to get into any of the stores. 48 hours later, yesterday, I pretty much had Cork city centre to myself because almost nothing was open so there was nowhere for people to go so they stayed at home. Just as it was nine months ago.

[buttgammon]

Not doubting that a lot of people bought into that idea that they'd somehow get away with it - months of using public transport during the pandemic have eroded any faith I may have had in the public. I've had three arguments with strangers about social distancing, and someone threatened to beat me up because I kept the nearest window to me open on the bus. At the same time, the government have badly failed in their responsibilities to such an extent that I think they've actually given people the feeling that they can do whatever they want.

[Wonderful Butternut]

Highest infection rate in the world as of today.

Great success!!!

[buttgammon]

Deep shit here. This is where extreme neoliberalism gets you; other countries take note. How many lives have been sacrificed to paper over the economic cracks in the run-up to Christmas and placate a handful of talk radio fascists?

[jobotic]

Lots of "even Johnson has done better than this" comments. Unbelievable.

Was it really just "go for it" at Christmas?

[buttgammon]

Lots of "even Johnson has done better than this" comments. Unbelievable.

Was it really just "go for it" at Christmas?

Not officially but yes, it was basically a free for all. We came out of a lockdown at the start of December and immediately, almost all businesses were allowed to reopen - an exception being pubs in Dublin that don't serve food. This was despite the fact that NPHET, our equivalent of SAGE, consistently advised against this. They then eased virtually all restrictions about meeting people in private homes etc around Christmas, despite the fact that cases were already rising at that point. A ban on travel from Great Britain was imposed just before Christmas and we returned to lockdown on New Year's Eve, but this was all a matter of closing the stable door after the horse has bolted.

I'm very angry about how it has been handled so this may simply be anger talking, but I think the Irish government is doing even worse than the Tories at the moment, such is the degree of wilful stupidity that has allowed them to ignore the advice of experts and essentially give the public carte blanche over the Christmas period. There was a similar situation in the autumn when they ignored scientific advice and had to row back a week or two later, so they are pathetic enough to have not even learned from their own mistakes.

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

I imagine that's going to happen when this is all over. Fine Gael will point out that they did better when they were solely in charge and Fianna Fáil will point out Leo Varadkar's impulsiveness and obsession with 'optics' have damaged things. Meanwhile, the Greens will fade into obscurity.

The Greens were fucked the second that the price of diesel went up. We'll never get rid of the other two. Never.

[Dog Botherer]

remembering how when this all kicked off my family were very smug about Ireland’s response, especially that of the medically talented Leobot. “just wait” says i.

it is comforting at least to see a large chunk of the population pointing fingers in the right direction for once. whether it leads to anything is another matter.

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

Highest number of patients in ICU today.

Not alone did they open everything up for Christmas, we didn't lock down fully in the run-up to Christmas either. We were at Level Three. Yes people have been very stupid - Tramore is full of COVID because of Christmas gatherings, and a funeral in Ramsgrange was the cause of two clusters in south Wexford. But if the government gives people the go-ahead to do whatever, they're going to do whatever.

[checkoutgirl]

if the government gives people the go-ahead to do whatever, they're going to do whatever.

You're sort of right. Enough of a percentage of people will do whatever to fuck the rest of us. I didn't do whatever. No matter what the government say I'll cover my own backside until a vaccine comes out. I suspect a good chunk of the population think like that too.

I'm surprised we managed to fuck it up so badly as our population density isn't that high, 6 million in a space about half the size of England which has 10 times our population. It defies logic that Ireland could be worse than say, New York.

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

You're sort of right. Enough of a percentage of people will do whatever to fuck the rest of us.

If the government says, "okay lads you have two weeks to go to the pub and see your granny", more people will go to the pub and see their grannies because the government said it was okay. There'll always be a core group of dickheads who do as they please, but the longer this goes on, the more fed up law-abiding people get, and the more likely they are to go as far as more relaxed guidelines will allow. That's why this thing of "oh the public needs to use common sense" as a policy/government guideline was horseshit in the UK and it's horseshit here. Just a way to shift blame away from the government response. You have to lay down rules for the public and enforce them.

[BlodwynPig]

If the government says, "okay lads you have two weeks to go to the pub and see your granny", more people will go to the pub and see their grannies because the government said it was okay. There'll always be a core group of dickheads who do as they please, but the longer this goes on, the more fed up law-abiding people get, and the more likely they are to go as far as more relaxed guidelines will allow. That's why this thing of "oh the public needs to use common sense" as a policy/government guideline was horseshit in the UK and it's horseshit here. Just a way to shift blame away from the government response. You have to lay down rules for the public and enforce them.

“Bite me”

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

But if the government gives people the go-ahead to do whatever, they're going to do whatever.

That's the main message.

Moving back to the UK but prior to Christmas the government starting sending messages like "Just because there's a limit doesn't mean you should push it to the limit".

And it's like...what the fuck. Have you goons ever met humans before?

But as mentioned above, these are tiny cunty little ways in which they can get the public to turn on themselves rather than against a government that has overseen a near total policy failure from beginning to end:

- Too late to lockdown
- Sending infected discharge patients into care homes without testing them
- Too slow to get testing up and running
- Squandering money and effort on cheap restaurant lunches for a month
- Late to get the app working then failure to enforce it (entrants to a pub simply saying 'I have checked in' without there being any recall whatsoever)
- Test and trace collapsing under even a whisper of a rise in cases (this happened well before November)
- Inadequate tier system that simply failed and failed and failed through every adjustment possible
- A policy based on 'reasoning' with a virus rather than recognising it as an exponential threat that could overwhelm an entire country within weeks
- Gutless refusal to abandoned the Christmas window and drastic change of plans leading to economic damage and panic spreading through shopping/emergency travel
- Corruption and failure to visibly abide by the standards it sets for others leading to civil disobedience
- Failing to use November to do a proper lockdown and get cases down in preparation for the winter ahead.
- Failure to apply as stern a lockdown as March despite more pressing need for it

Probably missed tonnes of other points, but there you are.

Ultimately it's human nature that if the state says you're allowed to do something a significant enough % of the population will take that as a green light to do it whether or not there's wider indicators it isn't sensible, because it's a case of abdicating responsibility, just as the government are trying to do, it's hardwired into their DNA from the very start of Cameron's project in 2010.

[buttgammon]

https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2021/0115/1190100-white-water-rafting-dublin/

Not covid related as such but this idea that seemed absurd a year ago is now downright out of touch; what kind of bastard dredged it up at a time like this? The idea of an expensive playground for tech bros in the middle of a city that's full of homelessness, dereliction and decay leaves a really foul taste.

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2021/0115/1190100-white-water-rafting-dublin/

Not covid related as such but this idea that seemed absurd a year ago is now downright out of touch; what kind of bastard dredged it up at a time like this? The idea of an expensive playground for tech bros in the middle of a city that's full of homelessness, dereliction and decay leaves a really foul taste.

The project now also involves the construction of two new buildings, a water treatment facility and flood defences.

To be fair, the latter two are probably needed.

[buttgammon]

Not sure if this is a bit tinfoil hat of me but I wonder if they've tacked on the water treatment facility and flood defences to force through the other crap? I don't see why they can't just build them anyway.

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

Not sure if this is a bit tinfoil hat of me but I wonder if they've tacked on the water treatment facility and flood defences to force through the other crap? I don't see why they can't just build them anyway.

That's possible.

You know actually now that I look at the DCC website I have a feeling the water treatment facility is purely to serve the whitewater rafting facility. The flood defences are definitely needed, what with all the melting ice and rising sea levels.

[Dog Botherer]

https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2021/0115/1190100-white-water-rafting-dublin/

Not covid related as such but this idea that seemed absurd a year ago is now downright out of touch; what kind of bastard dredged it up at a time like this? The idea of an expensive playground for tech bros in the middle of a city that's full of homelessness, dereliction and decay leaves a really foul taste.

lol some of my more aggressively middle class family are very excited about this and i cringe every time it’s brought up.

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

AND GEMMA'S AT IT AGAIN

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2021/0120/1190932-o-doherty-waters-court/

The Court of Appeal has reserved its decision on an appeal by John Waters and Gemma O'Doherty against the High Court's rejection of their challenge to the Government's public health restrictions to deal with the Covid 19 pandemic.

[...]

This morning, Ms O'Doherty said she hoped the Court of Appeal would respect the science in relation to an "alleged pandemic" and an "alleged virus".

She said the State parties had decided to embark on a completely new path never tested before in medical and scientific history by locking down the 99% of the population who are healthy to deal with the "common cold", which she said is what Covid-19 is.

[...]

The average age of death from coronavirus was 83, which she said, was the age of life expectancy and the vast majority of Irish people would not be affected by the coronavirus.

Most people who died had "underlying conditions" and "their time was up anyway".

[...]

There was a cure for the virus, she claimed, from hydroxychloroquine, vitamin C and zinc, but hospitals were putting people into intensive care and "bringing about their deaths".

Ms O'Doherty said what the State did was "absolutely disgusting" and "most of us know no one who has died and no one who has had it".

She said she had gone into hospitals "as an investigative journalist" to see with her own eyes where the pandemic was. They had been empty since last March, she claimed.

Now did you catch the contradictions there. "Most people who died had underlying conditions and their time was up anyway", but "hospitals were putting people into intensive care and bringing about their deaths" even though hospitals "have been empty since last March".

[Wonderful Butternut]

Can we just shoot her?

Please.

[jobotic]

Who are they? Just some (presumably right-wing) cunts?

[Dog Botherer]

Who are they? Just some (presumably right-wing) cunts?

independent journalist gone full on QAnon level crank. waste of good oxygen.