Author Topic: Artists that are never getting a positive criticial reappraisal  (Read 7192 times)

buzby

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Re: Artists that are never getting a positive criticial reappraisal
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2021, 09:21:53 AM »
I was rather fond of Marion. Thanks for the reminder. I think I'll play some of their stuff today.
Phil Cunningham went on to be Gillian's replacement in New Order. They have reformed a couple of times since though.

Re: Mansun - it was coke, rather than heroin that was the issue with one member in particular.

gilbertharding

  • Not even the rudest man in the Beatles
Re: Artists that are never getting a positive criticial reappraisal
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2021, 10:34:20 AM »
Indian inspired prog-rock by a guy called, improbably, "Crispian"? No chance of a Kula Shaker revival is there.

It's a testament to my own lack of critical faculties, but I'm afraid I quite liked Kula Shaker when they first came out. I was in my late 20s, and had raised myself on a diet of garage psych 'n' indie shoegaze, so I was always going to be a sucker for something like that. I soon learned though, obviously.

Re: Artists that are never getting a positive criticial reappraisal
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2021, 10:38:34 AM »
I heard someone on Radio 2 say their favourite song was We're Going to Ibiza by Vengaboys without any hint of irony.

Anyway Vengaboys are good. They're as good as they ever were. Also they're woke a f


Re: Artists that are never getting a positive criticial reappraisal
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2021, 10:45:30 AM »
The New Grave genre. I know that sounds like a CaB injoke but it was real, lasted about a week in the late 90s and involved indie bands with a vaguely gothy look and at least one member with a heroin problem. Placebo were patient zero (and possibly the only band still widely remembered) but Mansun, Marion and These Animal Men were others. I very much liked all of them, particularly Mansun who I still love, but I can see history isn't going to be kind to them.

I'm not sure New Grave ever really existed as an actual scene outside of a few journo's heads. I don't remember Placebo ever being labelled that, they were generally lumped in with the Britpop bands of the time (even though only one of them was British).

Marion were very much in the post-Suede vein but I never thought of them as particularly gothy. Mansun were more neo-prog if anything.

Now Strangelove, on the other hand...

Re: Artists that are never getting a positive criticial reappraisal
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2021, 11:16:12 AM »
It's a testament to my own lack of critical faculties, but I'm afraid I quite liked Kula Shaker when they first came out. I was in my late 20s, and had raised myself on a diet of garage psych 'n' indie shoegaze, so I was always going to be a sucker for something like that. I soon learned though, obviously.

Never understood the hate for Kula Shaker.  I've only heard the first couple of albums, but I always enjoyed them, and they seemed a cut above the generic Britpop gash of the era.  In my head, they occupy the same space as Supergrass.

NoSleep

  • Me and the hedgehog, we bursting the tyres all day
    • Space Is The Place
Re: Artists that are never getting a positive criticial reappraisal
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2021, 11:36:25 AM »
Never understood the hate for Kula Shaker.

Did the Mills' racism pass you by?

Re: Artists that are never getting a positive criticial reappraisal
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2021, 11:54:44 AM »
Did the Mills' racism pass you by?

Really?  Yeah I had no idea.  I thought he was just a public school Hare Krishna hippy twat, but had always just divorced the art from the artist (and I quite like the Indian influenced sound).  Shame that.


gilbertharding

  • Not even the rudest man in the Beatles
Re: Artists that are never getting a positive criticial reappraisal
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2021, 12:24:55 PM »
Was he racist? I remember he tried to claim that the swastika is a sacred symbol of something or other in Hinduism - which is true, but a deeply, deeply stupid thing to say out loud, nevermind to a music journalist in 1998.

If he did or said anything worse than that, then fair dos but I can't remember it.

The reason I went off them was just a general thing that he was clearly an irredeemable bell-piece, and his music was (while superficially the kind of stuff I liked, as I say in the previous post) shit.

Brundle-Fly

  • "Why don't you do something to help me?"
Re: Artists that are never getting a positive criticial reappraisal
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2021, 12:55:17 PM »

Sham 69


I only read yesterday that there are two Sham 69's these days and that Jimmy Pursey has been on the sex offenders register for some years now.

https://subcultz.com/jimmy-pursey-the-end-of-an-ego/


Re: Artists that are never getting a positive criticial reappraisal
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2021, 01:21:16 PM »
Menswe@r

The Boxmasters

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Dr Rock

  • The BEST of luck!
Re: Artists that are never getting a positive criticial reappraisal
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2021, 01:30:21 PM »
I only read yesterday that there are two Sham 69's these days and that Jimmy Pursey has been on the sex offenders register for some years now.

https://subcultz.com/jimmy-pursey-the-end-of-an-ego/

Quote
Jimmy Pursey
In 2002, Jimmy Pursey received a “Caution” from police in Weybridge, U.K., for committing an Indecent Assault on a teenaged girl. The British “Caution”, which has no corollary in the U.S., allows offenders to avoid trial if they agree to admit guilt and register with the police. This means Pursey is listed on the United Kingdom’s “Registry of Sexual and Violent Offenders”.

The crime itself is apparently related to an incident where Pursey forced a kiss on the mouth of a 15 year old girl.

It's bad, but nowhere near Glitter level I suppose.

Brundle-Fly

  • "Why don't you do something to help me?"
Re: Artists that are never getting a positive criticial reappraisal
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2021, 01:35:24 PM »
It's bad, but nowhere near Glitter level I suppose.

True, but you'd think he'd know better after being a teenage regular at The Walton Hop disco nights in the early 1970s.

Re: Artists that are never getting a positive criticial reappraisal
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2021, 03:23:07 PM »
Was [Crispian Mills] racist? I remember he tried to claim that the swastika is a sacred symbol of something or other in Hinduism - which is true, but a deeply, deeply stupid thing to say out loud, nevermind to a music journalist in 1998.

If he did or said anything worse than that, then fair dos but I can't remember it.
This is my level of understanding as well. I remember them being accused of cultural appropriation, but that's about it.

I actually listened to their first album fairly recently and (even making allowances for nostalgia) it still sounded pretty good to me. I can understand how they'd seem pretty pointless if you'd listened to any real '60s psych music, but I've never felt originality to be the most important criterion for enjoying art.

Re: Artists that are never getting a positive criticial reappraisal
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2021, 03:38:12 PM »
I remember reading some claims years ago that Crispy Ian from Kula Shaker had had some dubious far-right associations in his pre-fame days but I don't know if there was any substance to it. May've all been speculative guff.

Didn't he go on to re-invent himself as a director and did (do?) a mediocre Simon Pegg film?

Re: Artists that are never getting a positive criticial reappraisal
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2021, 03:41:53 PM »
No. He's done two mediocre Pegg films.

Re: Artists that are never getting a positive criticial reappraisal
« Reply #45 on: January 07, 2021, 04:14:40 PM »
Kula Shaker are getting fuck all in the future because of that period in the 2000s where the singing wanker had a new band every few months to watch out for. Poor John Earls having to post that every week on Planet Sound.

Re: Artists that are never getting a positive criticial reappraisal
« Reply #46 on: January 07, 2021, 06:13:18 PM »
Was he racist? I remember he tried to claim that the swastika is a sacred symbol of something or other in Hinduism - which is true, but a deeply, deeply stupid thing to say out loud, nevermind to a music journalist in 1998.

If he did or said anything worse than that, then fair dos but I can't remember it.

The reason I went off them was just a general thing that he was clearly an irredeemable bell-piece, and his music was (while superficially the kind of stuff I liked, as I say in the previous post) shit.

He did but that messaging rather got lost among comments like how great it would be to have a huge burning swastika on stage - both in that and earlier interviews.

This article has a good overview:

Quote
Clues to his opinions had already appeared in recent interviews with the specialist music press. "I'd LOVE to have great big flaming swastikas onstage just for the f-- - of it," he told the New Musical Express in its 1 March edition.

Mills' lengthy explanation and apology, faxed to the Independent on Sunday from the United States where he is on a 30-date tour, highlights his interest in the swastika. "This has justifiably upset many people for which I am deeply sorry," he said. "There is no better example of my naivety and insensitivity than the swastika comments."

Mills went on to defend his views by explaining that he was referring to the swastika as an ancient Indian spiritual symbol rather than the Nazi emblem.

But Mills has not commented on the swastika alone during interviews. "Hitler knew a lot more than he made out," Mills said in the New Musical Express interview. "You can see why Hitler got support. It was probably the uniforms that swung it," he told the same publication in November 1996. "Well, we know that democracy doesn't work. If we had a non-elected body that set the right standards ..." he explained to Melody Maker in January 1997.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/sorry-about-the-swastika-says-kula-shaker-singer-mills-1268161.html

(There's a bit more about what Phil_A alluded to in there).

Several years after the fallout, during drinks after work and colleagues pointed out Mills to me - his wife worked at the same company as us and they said Mills sometimes would join her. When I referred to the interviews, was told that the comments that were something Mills very much regretted (not surprisingly).

NoSleep

  • Me and the hedgehog, we bursting the tyres all day
    • Space Is The Place
Re: Artists that are never getting a positive criticial reappraisal
« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2021, 06:22:29 PM »
I remember reading some claims years ago that Crispy Ian from Kula Shaker had had some dubious far-right associations in his pre-fame days but I don't know if there was any substance to it. May've all been speculative guff.

Didn't he go on to re-invent himself as a director and did (do?) a mediocre Simon Pegg film?

I know somebody who went to the same college as him and they said he was definitely into some far-right dodgy-as-fuck shite, which synced in perfectly with his fascination for Hinduism and its caste system.

Several years after the fallout, during drinks after work and colleagues pointed out Mills to me - his wife worked at the same company as us and they said Mills sometimes would join her. When I referred to the interviews, was told that the comments that were something Mills very much regretted (not surprisingly).

Probably regretted as in wishing he kept his held opinions away from the general public.

Sebastian Cobb

  • bad opinion haver
Re: Artists that are never getting a positive criticial reappraisal
« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2021, 06:32:50 PM »
I saw Sham 69 about 10 years ago. It was fronted by a short fat bloke with bleached blond spiky hair so I assume it wasn't the Pursey one.

It was fairly busy in there. Although this was in Aberdeen and Stiff Little Fingers used to sell out very quickly every year. Big bunch of aged Ska Skinheads up there though.

NoSleep

  • Me and the hedgehog, we bursting the tyres all day
    • Space Is The Place
Re: Artists that are never getting a positive criticial reappraisal
« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2021, 06:33:29 PM »
Here's an article (from 1997) about some of Mills past connections:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/sorry-about-the-swastika-says-kula-shaker-singer-mills-1268161.html

Quote
He and Marcus Maclaine, who was the partner of Mills's actress mother Hayley for 12 years, had formed a band called The Objects of Desire. According to Maclaine, they gave it the motto "England will rise again". The group did the usual round of clubs and backstreet venues making a limited impact on the music scene.

But in 1993 the band was lined up to play a far bigger gig at Wembley: a conference entitled "Global Deception" at which speakers included a notorious anti-semitic propagandist Eustace Mullins and a leading US militia writer, William Cooper.

Cooper, who stepped in as compere at the conference after the right-wing, militia-supporting DJ Anthony J Hilder failed to appear, has reprinted the anti-semitic forgery, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which was used by the Nazis to justify the Holocaust. Mills later went on to thank Cooper on Kula Shaker's hit album K, which reached number one in the album charts in September last year.

Maclaine was no stranger to extremist politics himself, having spent time in the National Front as a teenager, although he says he has had nothing to do with the organisation since he was 18.

purlieu

  • Gertrude Stein said that's enough.
Re: Artists that are never getting a positive criticial reappraisal
« Reply #50 on: January 07, 2021, 08:36:06 PM »
I very much liked all of them, particularly Mansun who I still love, but I can see history isn't going to be kind to them.
Nah, the reissue campaign (including that ludicrously large box) has been met with a lot of positive press. Last year I saw loads of stuff around the 21st anniversary of Six and how it's an underrated record. Even Paul Draper's solo career seems to have survived a near-cancelling a couple of years ago. I always assumed they'd just be forgotten as an interesting curio, but they seem to be very fondly remembered these days.

Re: Artists that are never getting a positive criticial reappraisal
« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2021, 09:46:55 PM »
Here's an article (from 1997) about some of Mills past connections:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/sorry-about-the-swastika-says-kula-shaker-singer-mills-1268161.html

Least there were no paedo's in his band that he knew about and said nothing for years.

Shit Good Nose

  • Several bags of balls
Re: Artists that are never getting a positive criticial reappraisal
« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2021, 10:14:29 PM »
Mark and Lard made several comical allusions to Mills having some dodgy views on several occasions but, not being particularly bothered either way about him or Kula Shaker, at the time I never thought they were anything more than comical jibes.  Reading the above posts now, it's all come together like a jigsaw.

NoSleep

  • Me and the hedgehog, we bursting the tyres all day
    • Space Is The Place
Re: Artists that are never getting a positive criticial reappraisal
« Reply #53 on: January 07, 2021, 10:20:18 PM »
Least there were no paedo's in his band that he knew about and said nothing for years.

Does that make his views OK with you?

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

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Re: Artists that are never getting a positive criticial reappraisal
« Reply #54 on: January 07, 2021, 11:16:33 PM »
Mark and Lard made several comical allusions to Mills having some dodgy views on several occasions but, not being particularly bothered either way about him or Kula Shaker, at the time I never thought they were anything more than comical jibes.  Reading the above posts now, it's all come together like a jigsaw.

That's a bit rich coming from Radcliffe, he used to be the drummer in Skrewdriver.

I am, of course, joking. Radcliffe only played with them for a brief period in the late '70s, before they reinvented themselves as white supremacists. In those early days they were just another bunch of punk lads. The avuncular DJ Mark Radcliffe is not a racist, I really can't stress that enough. 

MiddleRabbit

  • Whatever it is you're selling, I don't want it.
Re: Artists that are never getting a positive criticial reappraisal
« Reply #55 on: January 08, 2021, 01:34:20 PM »
I thought Kula Shaker were fantastic live.  He’s a good guitar player - a lot better than most of the Britpop lot.

I don’t know if he’s a nazi or not, he’s certainly daft as a brush.  I would not go so far as to sympathise with him, but if it’s your dad - to all intents and purposes- who indoctrinated you, that’s hard to expunge from your brain, isn’t it?

Tattva, Start All Over - they’re pretty good records if you ask me.

Re: Artists that are never getting a positive criticial reappraisal
« Reply #56 on: January 08, 2021, 05:25:27 PM »
I thought Kula Shaker were fantastic live.  He’s a good guitar player - a lot better than most of the Britpop lot.

I don’t know if he’s a nazi or not, he’s certainly daft as a brush.  I would not go so far as to sympathise with him, but if it’s your dad - to all intents and purposes- who indoctrinated you, that’s hard to expunge from your brain, isn’t it?

Tattva, Start All Over - they’re pretty good records if you ask me.

When I was 10, I loved their first record, and had no idea until much later that they were so uncool, or any of this dubious racist shit. I've not really gone back to it, but really remember enjoying it a lot. Just listened to a few tracks now, and it's a bit silly and naff, particularly the indian/60's pastiche stuff but I still think it's not that bad, and I remember a lot of the songs. I distinctly remember being on a school trip and someone letting me listen to tattva on their walkman. Don't think I ever heard the 2nd album bar 'sound of drums' which I liked

Sebastian Cobb

  • bad opinion haver
Re: Artists that are never getting a positive criticial reappraisal
« Reply #57 on: January 08, 2021, 06:30:08 PM »
A mate once dragged me to a Gaz Coombes gig when he was in town and by fuck I wished he hadn't.

MiddleRabbit

  • Whatever it is you're selling, I don't want it.
Re: Artists that are never getting a positive criticial reappraisal
« Reply #58 on: January 08, 2021, 07:25:25 PM »
When I was 10, I loved their first record, and had no idea until much later that they were so uncool, or any of this dubious racist shit. I've not really gone back to it, but really remember enjoying it a lot. Just listened to a few tracks now, and it's a bit silly and naff, particularly the indian/60's pastiche stuff but I still think it's not that bad, and I remember a lot of the songs. I distinctly remember being on a school trip and someone letting me listen to tattva on their walkman. Don't think I ever heard the 2nd album bar 'sound of drums' which I liked

I don’t want to listen to them now, but it’s not because the singer’s a cunt.  If I was going to only listen to bands whose singers weren’t  cunts, I’d be into The Surfaris.

MiddleRabbit

  • Whatever it is you're selling, I don't want it.
Re: Artists that are never getting a positive criticial reappraisal
« Reply #59 on: January 08, 2021, 07:27:11 PM »
Whoops double post

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