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Have political messages in culture ever changed your views?

Started by markburgle, January 17, 2021, 02:42:37 PM

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markburgle

I wonder about this a lot, especially as it relates to song lyrics, but with everything really. Some people decry the death of protest music - but has it died because people have concluded that it doesn't really change anything? Peter Cook's line about "the 30's cabaret that did so much to prevent the rise of Hitler" comes to mind. Was the influence of a Rage Against the Machine or Clash lyric just limited to giving people who already hold that view a moment of catharsis? (Sure you might learn about a new specific injustice you weren't aware of but that's not the same as a Tory going "mine eyes have been opened, what a fool I've been").

The left-wing bias in the arts does mean we're mostly talking about right-wing views being challenged, and yet the right is not exactly on the back foot at the moment and hardly ever is. You suspect people on the right must get used to tuning out the political content in the culture they consume. They get inured to the idea that if they want to watch some comedy or listen to music - and don't want to restrict themselves to Dennis Miller the Musical (score by Ted Nugent) - they'll have to go with stuff that is at the very least made by people whose views they oppose, and often people who promote those views within the work.

Anyone here ever changed their political view because of some art? Or is it all just a big bloody waste of time?

Dr Rock

Everything I learnt about morality I got from Marvel Comics.

Buelligan


Sin Agog

I don't know about changed, but people do go through these little malleable periods in their lives, like lesser versions of their first couple of years of life when they soaked every tiny little thing in and used it to help contour their personality.  Obviously your teens are one of them, and reading shit like Malcolm X and Quentin Crisp definitely did do some last-minute touch-ups before I finally went in the old personality kiln.

Pink Gregory

You go through 3 stages of Rage Against the Machine

1 - youth, "yeah!  fuck you I won't do what you tell me!"

2- late youth, "ugh, it's just childish sloganeering, we need to reach a consensus through debate.

3 - adulthood, "yeah they're basically correct."

Icehaven

I was a huge Manics fan in my teens and early 20s and I'd definitely say their lyrics and influences helped shape my political outlook a bit, if only because it pushed me to read and learn in directions I'd never have known existed otherwise, and just encouraged me to consider politics a lot more than I would have done were I not into them. Although I can't help but find some of the early lyrics a bit earnest and gauche now a lot of the basic sentiments are still right, although I always wished he'd go a bit easier on the syllables.

Sebastian Cobb

I think watching some Ken Loach films during my teens/early 20's certainly cemented my views.

Probably some political hip-hop, and later soul/funk too.

greenman

Quote from: markburgle on January 17, 2021, 02:42:37 PM
I wonder about this a lot, especially as it relates to song lyrics, but with everything really. Some people decry the death of protest music - but has it died because people have concluded that it doesn't really change anything? Peter Cook's line about "the 30's cabaret that did so much to prevent the rise of Hitler" comes to mind. Was the influence of a Rage Against the Machine or Clash lyric just limited to giving people who already hold that view a moment of catharsis? (Sure you might learn about a new specific injustice you weren't aware of but that's not the same as a Tory going "mine eyes have been opened, what a fool I've been").

The left-wing bias in the arts does mean we're mostly talking about right-wing views being challenged, and yet the right is not exactly on the back foot at the moment and hardly ever is. You suspect people on the right must get used to tuning out the political content in the culture they consume. They get inured to the idea that if they want to watch some comedy or listen to music - and don't want to restrict themselves to Dennis Miller the Musical (score by Ted Nugent) - they'll have to go with stuff that is at the very least made by people whose views they oppose, and often people who promote those views within the work.

Anyone here ever changed their political view because of some art? Or is it all just a big bloody waste of time?

I think you could argue its a bit of you don't know what you've got to its gone in terms of the arts having genuinely anti establishment views, I'd say that's something that's been in decline since the 90's and probably has made the rise of centralism easier.

Coldplay stamping on a human face forever.

Fambo Number Mive

Do books count or are they too obvious? Plenty of books I've read over the years have altered my politics. I read Pilger's books when I was 17 and those made an impression on me, as did Mark Steel's autobiography. Tony Benn's diaries are also very revealing about the late 1970's onwards (when he became more radical).

Same for documentaries such as that Channel 4 on the Miners' Strike.

I listened to a lot of 70s/80s music when I was at university and it does make you feel like your views aren't nonsense and you are part of a wider movement, you also feel the passion in the lyrics for a better world. These days it doesn't feel the same, we've had Captain Ska and the Boris Johnson song and that's it.

Paul Calf

Quote from: markburgle on January 17, 2021, 02:42:37 PM
The left-wing bias in the arts...

Sorry, the what?

You'll have to point me in the direction of the Hollywood movies that argue for wealth redistribution or the pop music, ballets and operas that feature themes of the struggle against against private ownership of public goods. The arts do generally have a bias against authoritarianism and in favour of freedom of expression, but that's not really surprising considering that oppression is antithetical to their existence.

NoSleep

Quote from: markburgle on January 17, 2021, 02:42:37 PM
The left-wing bias in the arts does mean we're mostly talking about right-wing views being challenged, and yet the right is not exactly on the back foot at the moment and hardly ever is.

Did you not notice how they've trashed the music industry in this country over the years. The dole used to be a godsend for up and coming bands; gone. And I don't think it helped much that Jeremy Corbyn was given such such a rousing welcome at Glastonbury; they will be punished. In the Brexit talks they've pretty much destroyed any chance that a UK band will make any money on a European tour anymore, which is particularly galling after the lockdown has affected their source of income so badly for the last year. Music in the UK is going to be made purely by public schoolboys with silver spoons plums in their mouths. One more example of cronyism.

Thomas

A JPEG of an uncited quote from 1984 made me realise Covid is fake

Buelligan

Read Wolfe's The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test and Hunter Thompson's Hell's Angels, which cover some of the same events, in quick succession when I was twelve or thirteenish.  I had a lovely librarian, Miss Birch, who was very kind and encouraging.  She too lived in a narrow small town with an oppressive domineering father. 

Anyway, showed me my path, that did.  I suppose it didn't change my views as much as showed me the map out, showed me that there were options, even for people like me.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: markburgle on January 17, 2021, 02:42:37 PM
The left-wing bias in the arts does mean we're mostly talking about right-wing views being challenged, and yet the right is not exactly on the back foot at the moment and hardly ever is. You suspect people on the right must get used to tuning out the political content in the culture they consume. They get inured to the idea that if they want to watch some comedy or listen to music - and don't want to restrict themselves to Dennis Miller the Musical (score by Ted Nugent) - they'll have to go with stuff that is at the very least made by people whose views they oppose, and often people who promote those views within the work.

You've raised some really interesting points here that I have been musing on for the last 20+ years.  There are lots of things going on; there is a whole spectrum of culture and whilst radicalism and leftwing ideas have on one hand been incorporated into everyday practice (before the 1950s you didn't have any healthcare as just one example with many more contemporary one existing also).  Some leftwing values (mostly very safe ones) are ubiquitous in the mainstream whilst others have been completely airbrushed out.  Mainstream music was occupied by non-radical artists in favour of individuals concerned with the self a long time ago now; they may well be entertaining crowds but the spectacle is themselves and the greatness of the individual with people buying into this to varying degrees.  This permeates our culture deep in our programming and has done for a long time; we set out on popularising narcissism a long time ago, we made it entertaining.  Narcissism is appealing to most people at some level as it removes the process of reflection which is uncomfortable and costly for the brain.

We've also seen leftwing views have been directed towards identity politics which in turn have become commodified; that isn't to say activists earning money for leftwing causes is wrong; rather it poses new challenges that solutions need to be found for.  Marx was so dangerous because he created a shared idea that was inclusive to the vast majority of people.....it's called class.  It doesn't matter if you are a white cis male, a black gay women, a second generation Pakistani you can all come together via class consciousness; this is more tricky for individual elements with specific stated causes and interests.  Activism has become a commodity and that isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it has the affect of separating groups and introducing dependancies on keeping that commodity running (i.e. Novara[nb]Novara is actually a good example of an inclusive platform though - Bastani & Butler actually know their Marx[/nb] and several other leftwing Youtubers have to get clicks, which means they have to present things in a certain way in order to attract them).  This can have the impact of there being lots of lefties but very little unification (hence why a unified Labour Party is also very dangerous).

it is very difficult to direct culture and is not accurate or contain in changing people, rather it influences things.  Most influence is subconscious, people consciously realise things, but they often felt them before in varying degrees we only ever really experience the climax of these influences and experience this as conscious though.  That means you are much more likely to convince someone of something by not being direct with them but framing an environment of which people inhabit and merge with or framing how people look at their environment so that is appears a certain way to which they then merge with.  This is happening all the time but there isn't any grand architect; it is just a direct of travel with some structure chucked in (i.e. rightwing media/established hierarchies in important organisations etc...).

markburgle

Quote from: Paul Calf on January 17, 2021, 07:37:07 PM
Sorry, the what?

You'll have to point me in the direction of the Hollywood movies that argue for wealth redistribution or the pop music, ballets and operas that feature themes of the struggle against against private ownership of public goods. The arts do generally have a bias against authoritarianism and in favour of freedom of expression, but that's not really surprising considering that oppression is antithetical to their existence.

By left wing bias I was referring to the psychological overlap between creativity and leftism. I think it's true to a majority of those in the arts are left wing.

It may be true that most pop is narcissistic as Trenter says, but it seems to me that when the people singing it speak about any issues it's usually in support of "woke" causes.

At the alternative end of things look at IDLES - a perfect example of why I asked the question because they sing about politics but they're so shit I find it hard to imagine them influencing anyone. But they're promoting lefty views. Can you imagine a similar band singing about opposite views being treated as anything but pariahs?

Comedy is, as we're always hearing, something the left is better at because we're usually the losers in life and have the required humility.

Movies, well you have a point there. The Die Hard thread points out how right wing the messaging is and yet most of us lap the movie up regardless.

Paul Calf

Couldn't you regard a lot of nu-skool hip-hop as right wing, as it concentrates on acquisition of money and consumer goods and conspicuous consumption? Even grime - which is the closest thing we currently have to a mainstream working class artform - is pretty apolitical.

RenegadeScrew

Quote from: Paul Calf on January 18, 2021, 08:18:23 AM
Couldn't you regard a lot of nu-skool hip-hop as right wing, as it concentrates on acquisition of money and consumer goods and conspicuous consumption? Even grime - which is the closest thing we currently have to a mainstream working class artform - is pretty apolitical.

I must've missed grimes rise to mainstream popularity.  The guy with a guitar music will still be way more popular.  Noel Gallagher is infinitely more popular than any grime rapper.  Presuming he is still singing "shine...." then I suppose it's pretty apolitical too.

In fact, even more so, as I don't think he ever sings about "batty boys" in a derogatory fashion.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: markburgle on January 18, 2021, 08:09:51 AM
It may be true that most pop is narcissistic as Trenter says, but it seems to me that when the people singing it speak about any issues it's usually in support of "woke" causes.

They are both true.  There are fundamental differences between what the singer is singing about and what the singer is representing.  It is the combination of those two that shapes the influence for example the banality and commodification of woke issues that are secondary to individual narcissism.

Paul Calf

Quote from: RenegadeScrew on January 18, 2021, 08:38:23 AM
I must've missed grimes rise to mainstream popularity.  The guy with a guitar music will still be way more popular.  Noel Gallagher is infinitely more popular than any grime rapper.  Presuming he is still singing "shine...." then I suppose it's pretty apolitical too.

In fact, even more so, as I don't think he ever sings about "batty boys" in a derogatory fashion.

My mother-in law has heard of AJ Tracey and Stormzy, and even knows some of Stromzy's tunes. I think that's pretty mainstream. 'Batty boys' is a dancehall term and nothing to do with hip-hop. But I suppose all those genres look the same if you don't know what you're talking about.

Neol Gallagher is just a washed-up dickhead with just the right number of opinions to continue getting him a bit of attention.

NoSleep

Quote from: RenegadeScrew on January 18, 2021, 08:38:23 AM
In fact, even more so, as I don't think he ever sings about "batty boys" in a derogatory fashion.

Too busy slagging off Corbyn for not being "aspirational". Another Tory cunt.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

I don't know what kind of political messages you could be talking about that wouldn't include The Day Today

jobotic

I went right off grime when Buju Banton released that single in Jamaica in 1992.


Anyway, I think "To a Nation of Animal Lovers" by Conflict might have led me to become a vegetarian at the age of fifteen, after a family friend a couple of years older than me played it to me.

RenegadeScrew

I don't know if the political messages in culture have changed my views, but my views are definitely informed somewhat by the views of certain artists.  Especially at a certain age.  My dad is a Tony Benn fan which influenced my views. 

I suppose you could turn it round and ask how much your political view has influenced the culture you love. 

It's difficult to remember how I discovered people who did inform my way of thinking, but it seems like there is a kind of chain of culture.  There are links (obvious and vague) between artists (Radiohead, Dylan, Hicks, Lee) and more tenuously to non-artists (Chomsky, Orwell). Although I am cherry picking the artists a bit, it doesn't work if I choose Gaiser (minimal techno), MC Escher, and Tony Law.

Certain artists seem to give you knowledge of stuff that must surely inform your views in someway.  When Lee talked about political correctness, he probably only solidified my view at best.  But he's absolutely the reason I now know what happened in the Smethwick by-election in 1968.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Paul Calf on January 18, 2021, 08:18:23 AM
Couldn't you regard a lot of nu-skool hip-hop as right wing, as it concentrates on acquisition of money and consumer goods and conspicuous consumption? Even grime - which is the closest thing we currently have to a mainstream working class artform - is pretty apolitical.

Most people that have followed hip hop for the late 80s understand that hip hop was bought out from the mainstream in the mid 90s; there is almost a complete sub genre about the impact of selling out and the dangers of commodification in it.  Grime isn't apolitical?! it's an aggressive display of working classism (like punk) mainly about the struggle to get wealth and the fucked up things that happen on the way (Wu-tang were already doing this in hip hop back in the early 90s - C.R.E.A.M.).  Also grime is the one genre that actually did engage in overt unambiguous political messaging with Grime 4 Corbyn.

Asking why musicians rarely engage in politics until after they are retired is a fruitful discussion though.

JaDanketies

I'd have to say that Orwell was a big factor when I was fleshing out my views. I've read all his books. My dad also read most if not all of his books. Road to Wigan Pier and Down and Out in Paris and London deserve a mention.

When I was younger I checked out bands like Landser and Skrewdriver out of curiosity and it was fortunate that they were no good. When the prominent fash bands were so shit it contributed to dismissing the whole ideology. Fortunately I wasn't really into black metal back then.

On the black metal front, Varg convinced me that talking to musicians about politics is often like talking to a plumber about Chaucer. Perhaps they know something but there's no good reason to think that they did.

I used to devour leftist disenfranchised punk rock like Anti-Flag and Propagandhi and Leftover Crack but I'm not sure if they changed my views or reflected my views and perhaps entrenched them a little bit more.

I think bands like NWA and Bodycount would've contributed to a distrust of the police, viewing them as an arm of the state, but I think this fitted neatly into my ideology anyway. But I do recognise that the problems that a black guy in LA has with the police are more significant than my problems.

Captain Z

Quote from: RenegadeScrew on January 18, 2021, 08:38:23 AM
I must've missed grimes rise to mainstream popularity.  The guy with a guitar music will still be way more popular.  Noel Gallagher is infinitely more popular than any grime rapper...

Yes, you have done because it's been happening since the late 2000s. If you use a broad definition of the term, there have been several 'grime' artists near the top of the charts since then. Meanwhile, Noel Gallagher's highest chart position was #15 way back in 2011.

RenegadeScrew

Quote from: Paul Calf on January 18, 2021, 08:50:05 AM
My mother-in law has heard of AJ Tracey and Stormzy, and even knows some of Stromzy's tunes. I think that's pretty mainstream. 'Batty boys' is a dancehall term and nothing to do with hip-hop. But I suppose all those genres look the same if you don't know what you're talking about.

Neol Gallagher is just a washed-up dickhead with just the right number of opinions to continue getting him a bit of attention.

I'm pretty sure your mother-in-law will have heard of Noel Gallagher, if we are using her as a barometer. 

No need to try and be a dickhead as I'll undoubtedly have listened to way more grime than you.

Here's a nice track where Trim laughs about Lady Sovereign being bisexual.  I can find another track where he refers to someone as a battyman.  You'll never guess what, but some of these guys "flow" at points in Jamaican patois.  They must have Scottish roots.

https://trimtali.bandcamp.com/track/liar-liar-part-2

Let me know if you think it's dancehall.

Paul Calf


Marner and Me

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on January 18, 2021, 09:30:19 AM
Most people that have followed hip hop for the late 80s understand that hip hop was bought out from the mainstream in the mid 90s; there is almost a complete sub genre about the impact of selling out and the dangers of commodification in it.  Grime isn't apolitical?! it's an aggressive display of working classism (like punk) mainly about the struggle to get wealth and the fucked up things that happen on the way (Wu-tang were already doing this in hip hop back in the early 90s - C.R.E.A.M.).  Also grime is the one genre that actually did engage in overt unambiguous political messaging with Grime 4 Corbyn.

Asking why musicians rarely engage in politics until after they are retired is a fruitful discussion though.
They don't need to engage with that bollocks to sell records any more and are wealthy enough (if they invested correctly) for it not to matter.

JaDanketies

Actually maybe in white leftist circles there's a viewpoint that people like Varg and Morrissey might have bad politics but they still deserve some respect for their music, and I might have agreed with this in a thoughtless kinda way (I don't even like The Smiths), until I heard I Cannot Fucking Wait Until Morrissey Dies by JPEGMafia. I definitely thought the song title was shocking and iconoclastic. But it didn't take long for me to come round to his POV.