Have political messages in culture ever changed your views?

[Mister Six]

Has anyone yet pointed out that the majority of pop music has always been vacuous shite, and that we wrongly think people were all grooving to Hendrix or Bob Dylan or whatever when they were mostly listening to some shit so air-headed that we don't even remember it now?

[chveik]

I had grown out of this kulturkritik crap at 19. the world is beige enough already, no need to make it even more boring. I genuinely don't give a fuck what kind of art people enjoy.

[bgmnts]

Is criticism beige? I'd say its more grey.

[Paul Calf]

I had grown out of this kulturkritik crap at 19. the world is beige enough already, no need to make it even more boring. genuinely don't give a fuck what kind of art people enjoy.

While you're up there, could you check to see if my bald patch is developing?

[chveik]

While you're up there, could you check to see if my bald patch is developing?

only spiritually

[Paul Calf]

only spiritually

Die Kahlheit im Kopf.

[TrenterPercenter]

Yeh, you don't spell "leer" that way.

Oopsie

[TrenterPercenter]

Has anyone yet pointed out that the majority of pop music has always been vacuous shite, and that we wrongly think people were all grooving to Hendrix or Bob Dylan or whatever when they were mostly listening to some shit so air-headed that we don't even remember it now?

Hmmm but that implies things are the same and they are not, the whole economics behind music production have change now.  There are lots of different things that come into this; there being shit pop around before doesn't really explain much imo.  That doesn't mean that every generation thinks theirs was the best isn't a thing; but it is just one factor not the presiding factor.

[chveik]

edit fuck

[TrenterPercenter]

I had grown out of this kulturkritik crap at 19. the world is beige enough already, no need to make it even more boring. I genuinely don't give a fuck what kind of art people enjoy.

I know where you are coming from but I think this is misguided; the art and aesthetics people involve themselves of course has influences.  As you say it isn't a kulturkritik argument, that is why often happens, someone says they think "X" is bad, someone likes "X" gets defensive.  In my view you people can consume whatever they want but they should do so with their eyes open.  Art just doesn't appear either, it is created and created for purposes; that means people are involved in it and where there is people there is moral concern.

[Chedney Honks]

I literally can't think of anything anyone's said that's changed my view on anything.

[chveik]

I know where you are coming from but I think this is misguided; the art and aesthetics people involve themselves of course has influences.  As you say it isn't a kulturkritik argument, that is why often happens, someone says they think "X" is bad, someone likes "X" gets defensive.  In my view you people can consume whatever they want but they should do so with their eyes open.  Art just doesn't appear either, it is created and created for purposes; that means people are involved in it and where there is people there is moral concern.

I don't mind if someone says 'x is bad'. I just doubt there are more creeps among k-pop fans than in any other demographics.

[Paul Calf]

EDIT: It's nearly dinner time and I can't be arsed.

[TrenterPercenter]

mate

I know it sounds judgmental; but I'm genuinely interested why grown adult men would like to watch girl bands often singing in a language they can't understand and dressed as schoolgirls.  There seems an obvious answer to this but I'm happy to be informed as to what it is all about.

Same to a degree with boy bands and adult women (though this seems less pronounced) for balance.  The whole celeb fascination obsession thing is really weird imo; I used to go out with a girl back in my early 20s and was obsessed with Ronan Keating, I mean obsessed; not just leering at him but as if she had some personal relationship with him (I'm sure she remembered/causally celebrated his birthday etc...) fucking weird; as weird as some bloke cermonially wishing his favourite page 3 girl he's never met happy birthday.

[Chedney Honks]

EDIT: It's nearly dinner time and I can't be arsed.

Wise decision, buddy.

[Paul Calf]

Ooh, please don't hit me.

[chveik]

I know it sounds judgmental; but I'm genuinely interested why grown adult men would like to watch girl bands often singing in a language they can't understand and dressed as schoolgirls.  There seems an obvious answer to this but I'm happy to be informed as to what it is all about.

I feel like our culture is based on the objectification of young women, whether it's the most mainstream thing like current pop music or the supposedly highest expressions of art (there are even ladies in bikinis in Debord's films).

[Endicott]

I literally can't think of anything anyone's said that's changed my view on anything.

Well you did emerge fully formed, from an egg on a mountain top.

[pancreas]

Modern theatre tends to be very left wing. Posh, Enron, those David Hare things for TV about Blair and Iraq, for starters.

Opera, probably more apolitical. I find I engage with an opera at a local level: what is X character feeling at the moment? You don't really need to remember all the story leading up to why, because you want to see how that is played out musically, be it betrayal or loss or love or whatever. But people do try to do more political things. John Adams has Doctor Atomic (arguably anti-nuke) and The Death of Klinghoffer (arguably anti-Zionist) for example. The latter could potentially change your view of Israel–Palestine if you knew little about it already. Adams was accused of—wait for it—antisemitism for the DoK

I don't read enough books, but I suspect they are available in every flavour.

TV seems to me to tend increasingly towards the centrist. Highly lacking in moral fibre. The Wire was left-wing. Can't think of much British stuff which is.

[Chedney Honks]

Ooh, please don't hit me.

I don't think you really get my tone a lot of the time. Enjoy your dinner, mate!

[TrenterPercenter]

I feel like our culture is based on the objectification of young women, whether it's the most mainstream thing like current pop music or the supposedly highest expressions of art (there are even ladies in bikinis in Debord's films).

Yes there is a lot of objectification going on; what is weird that this objectification needs to be housed in other things; personally if your thing is objectifying Korean women dressed up to look like school girls then I'm sure there are easier ways of going about doing that without having to indulge a whole music genre.

Same with people that love raunchy shit TV shows like that spartacus rubbish; just look at some naked muscly men there is no need to try and convince people you are just watching it for the barely evident storyline. 

Dunno maybe i'm just weird but on one side it just seems desperately repressed and on the other it just seems like these things are there so to legitimatise conversations with others about their perversions.

God I sound like such a prude.  I don't know I'm probably not explaining this very well.

[chveik]

Yes there is a lot of objectification going on; what is weird that this objectification needs to be housed in other things; personally if your thing is objectifying Korean women dressed up to look like school girls then I'm sure there are easier ways of going about doing that without having to indulge a whole music genre.

I guess you just have to assume that people actually enjoy the music. thinking about it the opposite type of sneering is probably worse ("you can't enjoy difficult art, you're just pretending in order to look cool" etc.)

I hardly listen to k-pop tbh (I like some j-pop, it seems a bit more adventurous musically).

[TrenterPercenter]

I guess you just have to assume that people actually enjoy the music.

I'm not convinced. I'm sorry.

[RenegadeScrew]

Hmmm but that implies things are the same and they are not, the whole economics behind music production have change now.  There are lots of different things that come into this; there being shit pop around before doesn't really explain much imo.  That doesn't mean that every generation thinks theirs was the best isn't a thing; but it is just one factor not the presiding factor.

You are both right really.  The most popular stuff has always been vacuous , even the majority of Dylan and Hendrix (since they were mentioned).  In some ways, it's the joy of a lot of music. 

There seems to be more disposable music now, but I'm basing that pretty much off what my mates kids play.  We have the joy of listening to far more non-disposable music though.  Auto-tune doesn't help personally, but then you have everything drenched in Phil Collins reverb in the 80s.

Music in the past would've been like TV now.  I know loads of people who watch "Strictly" or when they all watched Lost.  I didn't need a chart to tell you it was popular.  Everybody would've known who Sinatra was, or what Hound Dog was when it topped the charts.

The idea that Rover by S1mba is popular like the Sopranos or even the Brass Eye special is funny.  Apart from a kid, his sister, and parents, I can't think of a single person I know who'd know what Rover or who S1mba is.

[Sin Agog]

I'm not convinced. I'm sorry.

As someone who listens to fucktons of yé-yé, girl groups, j-pop and the like (but not K-Pop- it's boring), I can confirm that yes, the appeal is the tunes and vivacity.  It's also that they can sing in major chords, or even write (or have written for them) shamelessly overwrought tragedies about their boyfriend, and it doesn't feel incongruous- these are legit emotions, and these songs written in C and G don't seem sophomoric in the same way they would were they a decade older.  It's void-filling simplicity unmarred by self-consciousness.

It sounds to me like you're coming at a lot of the genres you've mentioned in this thread very much from the outside in, and that's no position to be in if you want to make honest declarative statements.

[RenegadeScrew]

I don't think you really get my tone a lot of the time. Enjoy your dinner, mate!

Don't worry, he thinks everyone wants to fight him today. 

[Harry Badger]

some bloke cermonially wishing his favourite page 3 girl he's never met happy birthday.

That's a very long-winded euphemism.

[Chedney Honks]

I'm not convinced. I'm sorry.

It's definitely an interesting question, and my suggestion would be that it's not necessarily as blunt as 'I want to fuck this young adult dressed as a schoolgirl' but rather that it can evoke the wistful naivety and yearning of youth. I don't listen to much of that stuff but there have been a few J-pop songs which have made me feel something very particular - a nostalgia for something I never experienced, distanced further by a certain cultural exoticism. It's the combination of bubblegum/saccharine melodies and vocals, plus simple heartfelt lyrics. I don't even know what the performers look like in most cases, but the songs can definitely pull on the heartstrings.

Couple of examples:

Whiteberry - Natsumatsuri: https://youtu.be/uY8bHooOVdM

Kayo - Midori Pop: https://youtu.be/oAZokWOFTwQ

Don't know the name in English, it's Chinese: https://youtu.be/_e2PdJOgs1g

Not my favourite music (though I do really love the first one, especially the original version https://youtu.be/BFvdvIFsvPg), but they definitely have affected me at some point without me even knowing or paying attention to what they look like.

It may well be that you're talking about the more provocative K-pop end of things with the dance routines and like a line of ten barely-dressed models or something. Not really heard any of that stuff but yeah, pretty sure I'd fancy them all.

Have you ever seen the movie Perfect Blue, by the way? Touches on some of these pop idol themes as well as a light (likely outdated) exploration of psychosis, split personality disorder and folie à deux, which you might have an interesting take on.

[bgmnts]

I'm not convinced. I'm sorry.

So even gay lads want to fuck Korean school girls?

[flotemysost]

*Also see K-Pop, which from what I gather is a mix of musical valium and an excuse for adult men to lear at suspiciously underage looking women.

"As flies to wanton underage looking women, are we to the gods.
They kill us for their sport."