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March 29, 2024, 02:04:39 AM

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Have political messages in culture ever changed your views?

Started by markburgle, January 17, 2021, 02:42:37 PM

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TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Chedney Honks on January 18, 2021, 07:12:50 PM
It's definitely an interesting question, and my suggestion would be that it's not necessarily as blunt as 'I want to fuck this young adult dressed as a schoolgirl' but rather that it can evoke the wistful naivety and yearning of youth.

It may well be that you're talking about the more provocative K-pop end of things with the dance routines and like a line of ten barely-dressed models or something. Not really heard any of that stuff but yeah, pretty sure I'd fancy them all.

Have you ever seen the movie Perfect Blue, by the way? Touches on some of these pop idol themes as well as a light (likely outdated) exploration of psychosis, split personality disorder and folie à deux, which you might have an interesting take on.

Not seen the film you mention sounds interesting though - I've seen Hause which uses a troop of Japanese school girls to imbue this carefree saccharine atmosphere that you talk about; thing is however it is actually all juxtaposed against a horror movie that is a metaphor around Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Yes I'm talking about the barely-dressed model thing - isn't that K-pop? I'm not discriminating against the whole of Korean pop culture or even the girls in these groups.  I'm talking about the adult male audience that seems to exist.  Same with that poster that used to post anime schools girls in all of his posts whilst going off about white genocide; it's weird.  Yes I really think I should be listening to your ideas on the world whilst you are posting erotic cartoons of cat girls in all of your posts, definitely doesn't scream creepy comic book guy that lives in his mums basement vibes.


TrenterPercenter

Quote from: bgmnts on January 18, 2021, 07:42:03 PM
So even gay lads want to fuck Korean school girls?

Not sure what gay lads have got to do with it.  Are you implying all K-pop fans are gay lads?

Chedney Honks

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on January 18, 2021, 09:01:42 PM
Not seen the film you mention sounds interesting though - I've seen Hause which uses a troop of Japanese school girls to imbue this carefree saccharine atmosphere that you talk about; thing is however it is actually all juxtaposed against a horror movie that is a metaphor around Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Great movie! Only saw it fairly recently, but I agree, it's the juxtaposition and subtext that makes all the kawaii stuff even more jarring and sinister. I'd say Perfect Blue is a more 'serious' film than that, and well worth watching even if you don't typically have the stomach for anime. It's by the late Satoshi Kon, a genuine loss to cinema, whose work is a cut above almost anything in animated film. I'd be surprised if you didn't get something from it.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Chedney Honks on January 18, 2021, 09:31:10 PM
Great movie! Only saw it fairly recently, but I agree, it's the juxtaposition and subtext that makes all the kawaii stuff even more jarring and sinister. I'd say Perfect Blue is a more 'serious' film than that, and well worth watching even if you don't typically have the stomach for anime. It's by the late Satoshi Kon, a genuine loss to cinema, whose work is a cut above almost anything in animated film. I'd be surprised if you didn't get something from it.

Ah I just looked it up same person that made Paprika - Ok I will definitely check this out.


PS - to everyone that might be K-pop fans sorry I'm being very judgemental here and generally a bit of bell end (oh and in no way was I likening anyone to that 4chan poster forgot his name now - that is a whole different level of weirdness).

Zetetic


Mister Six

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on January 18, 2021, 05:54:28 PM
Hmmm but that implies things are the same and they are not, the whole economics behind music production have change now.

How so?

peanutbutter

Do the Right Thing? although it took me Googling it afterwards. It's half my life ago but I'm still pretty embarrassed my initial response was basically "
Spoiler alert
the poor pizzeria
[close]
!"

Mister Six

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on January 18, 2021, 06:09:06 PM
I know it sounds judgmental; but I'm genuinely interested why grown adult men would like to watch girl bands often singing in a language they can't understand and dressed as schoolgirls. 

Why do you presume they watch them? I've got a few K-pop songs liked on Spotify by Blackpink and KDA because they're bangers. I've got songs in Spanish, French, Japanese and Cantonese too, and I don't speak those languages. And Mandarin, though my Mandarin is shaky as fuck. And I don't know what any of those people look like beyond their Spotify profile pics.

Also from what I've seen of K-pop videos, the girls don't tend to get dressed up as schoolgirls. The stuff I have seen has either been self-consciously stylish streetwear or absurdly baroque catwalk fashion stuff.

Obviously they're supposed to be eye candy and the average age is probably south of 25, but this paedo thing is something you're bringing to the table rather than a dominant theme.

Get the feeling this is all saying more about your assumptions than K-pop.

Mister Six

Quote from: Chedney Honks on January 18, 2021, 09:31:10 PM
It's by the late Satoshi Kon, a genuine loss to cinema, whose work is a cut above almost anything in animated film.

FTFY.


bgmnts

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on January 18, 2021, 09:03:55 PM
Not sure what gay lads have got to do with it.  Are you implying all K-pop fans are gay lads?

Well there must be fans of k pop who are into the music and not the dubious korean school imagery, I was just using gay fans as an example.

Also, to be honest, I quite enjoy Babymetal and that's like J-Pop meets metal, and I'm sure those ladies are dressed up as cutesie little sex objects. I have literally no idea what they look like but they have released some bangers.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Mister Six on January 18, 2021, 10:17:55 PM
Why do you presume they watch them? I've got a few K-pop songs liked on Spotify by Blackpink and KDA because they're bangers. I've got songs in Spanish, French, Japanese and Cantonese too, and I don't speak those languages. And Mandarin, though my Mandarin is shaky as fuck. And I don't know what any of those people look like beyond their Spotify profile pics.

Also from what I've seen of K-pop videos, the girls don't tend to get dressed up as schoolgirls. The stuff I have seen has either been self-consciously stylish streetwear or absurdly baroque catwalk fashion stuff.

Obviously they're supposed to be eye candy and the average age is probably south of 25, but this paedo thing is something you're bringing to the table rather than a dominant theme.

Get the feeling this is all saying more about your assumptions than K-pop.

I think we have established that I might not know much about K-pop and I'm really just talking about the notion of older men being "fans" of girl bands that seem aimed at ages much below them.

Getting away from the school girl thing.  I feel a similar way about Harry Potter; why do adults obsess about these things for children? This is not the same, though is related, to reminiscing about Mr Frosties, as these are contemporary things.  I get that they provide the saccharine and "safe space" from the real world; my problem is isn't this telling you something; that reality is so unbearable that people need to literally inhabit children's worlds in order to cope.  It would seem much healthier to confront and be honest about humanity and the world rather than have infantilise it through talking about wizards etc....

This was the argument for Harry Potter (before everyone started actually paying attention to it because the author started being a dick) that is was good for children as it dealt with adult themes of class (its about a fucking boarding school) and race (they are all white) and gender (well maybe if there is actually only two).  Fine if you want your kids to grow up having to deal with real world problems by inventing elaborate Santas to explain them but this still doesn't explain the countless adults that became deranged with it (thankfully now being ridiculed tae fuck my generation z for for it).

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: bgmnts on January 18, 2021, 10:48:31 PM
Well there must be fans of k pop who are into the music and not the dubious korean school imagery, I was just using gay fans as an example.

Ah yes good old nuance, yes I'm not talking about all of them but heterosexual (I'm not sure in my mind why this matters but it does for some reason) older men that you would presume the music isn't aimed at.

markburgle

Quote from: Mister Six on January 18, 2021, 03:24:00 PM
This is also why liberal-run media is quite happy to commission shows and film that push socially progressive politics but not proper left-wing politics. Liberals want social, not economic, change.

That's a key distinction which I feel slightly dozy for not making. That's probably where a lot of bickering comes from - the right thinks the media/culture has a left-bias (which it does, socially) and the left thinks the media/culture has a right-bias (which it does, economically), and then they argue about which of them is the more short-changed and oppressed.

Political music is much harder to do effectively now. From roughly the 60's to the 80's there was an earnest belief in speaking truth to power, that fueled Dylan's early stuff all the way up to things like Two Tribes and Army Dreamers. But after a culture has witnessed something like the crushing of the miner's strike it's harder to believe in the fascist-slaying potential of your acoustic guitar. In the 60's you could basically sing "War is bad!" and people would cheer. If you did it now people would at best be like "Yeah dumbass, we know".

Still I'm finding it heartening to read that political messages can have a positive effect on some. I think the things that have influenced me have mainly been conversation and debate, but I never used to listen to lyrics when I was a malleable teen anyway.

Captain Z

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on January 19, 2021, 12:50:14 PM
I'm really just talking about the notion of older men being "fans" of girl bands that seem aimed at ages much below them.

Does this actually happen to any great extent outside of your own head?

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Captain Z on January 19, 2021, 02:56:49 PM
Does this actually happen to any great extent outside of your own head?

I don't know, it seems to be but that is why I was asking.

Chedney Honks

I do think it's a bit more of a thing in Asia with the idol production line. Again, Perfect Blue covers that side of things in quite a naturalistic way. Much less so in Western pop because the machine is somewhat different and has a different audience and purpose.