[muso] Learning an instrument as a total n00b

[Blue Jam]

Over lockdown I inadvertently took up the piano. I got Mr Jam an electric piano for Christmas in 2014 and had a go on it just before Christmas 2020 and thought "Hey, I actually do remember a bit of music theory from school, and I can play by ear a tiny little bit, and this is quite fun" and I asked Mr Jam to put a few books of sheet music in with my Xmas pressies.

I got:



...which is pretty readable and accessible, although it does go through a lot of music theory before you get to play anything. Got lots of piano drills which should come in handy.

I also got:



...which has been really great, got me playing from the start and thinking "Hey, I actually can read music and play with both hands and stuff". It's been good fun, been rattling through this. It's a bit like learning a language with Duolingo, more fun when you're an adult than when you're at school, because there has been an attempt to make it fun.

And finally this:



I've always liked the piano bits of Bowie stuff, especially Rick Wakeman's playing from from Hunky Dory. This one's a bit advanced for me at the moment even though the arrangements are simplified, but I'm doing pretty well at Life On Mars and The Man Who Sold The World. Just need to keep at it. And not depressing myself by watching stuff like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXoD5EmqK8Q

Thanks Mr Jam, you're the best.

I've been trying to put in 30 mins practice every couple of days, sometimes it's more like an hour, but I'm finding it fun and addictive rather than a chore. Think it's way to early (and too Covidy) to consider formal lessons but I really want to make an effort to keep practicing regularly and doing drills and things.

Anyone else take up an instrument over lockdown? How are you getting on?

[Marner and Me]

Over lockdown I inadvertently took up the piano. I got Mr Jam an electric piano for Christmas in 2014 and had a go on it just before Christmas 2020 and thought "Hey, I actually do remember a bit of music theory from school, and I can play by ear a tiny little bit, and this is quite fun" and I asked Mr Jam to put a few books of sheet music in with my Xmas pressies.

I got:



...which is pretty readable and accessible, although it does go through a lot of music theory before you get to play anything. Got lots of piano drills which should come in handy.

I also got:



...which has been really great, got me playing from the start and thinking "Hey, I actually can read music and play with both hands and stuff". It's been good fun, been rattling through this. It's a bit like learning a language with Duolingo, more fun when you're an adult than when you're at school, because there has been an attempt to make it fun.

And finally this:



I've always liked the piano bits of Bowie stuff, especially Rick Wakeman's playing from from Hunky Dory. This one's a bit advanced for me at the moment even though the arrangements are simplified, but I'm doing pretty well at Life On Mars and The Man Who Sold The World. Just need to keep at it. And not depressing myself by watching stuff like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXoD5EmqK8Q

Thanks Mr Jam, you're the best.

I've been trying to put in 30 mins practice every couple of days, sometimes it's more like an hour, but I'm finding it fun and addictive rather than a chore. Think it's way to early (and too Covidy) to consider formal lessons but I really want to make an effort to keep practicing regularly and doing drills and things.

Anyone else take up an instrument over lockdown? How are you getting on?

My sister is the musical one in the family, flue, piano, guitar, sax probably more stuff. I guess once you learn one the rest are probably quite easy.

Me myself! Well after having a few goes on my mates 1210s I brought a pair myself, I'm learning to scratch and beat juggle first more for my own enjoyment. As that I have found is way more fun than the conventional thing of blending tracks one into another. My mate also suggested scratching first as if you learn to blend and beat match first, you'll master that and then not want to scratch. 

[Blue Jam]

Me myself! Well after having a few goes on my mates 1210s I brought a pair myself, I'm learning to scratch and beat juggle first more for my own enjoyment. As that I have found is way more fun than the conventional thing of blending tracks one into another. My mate also suggested scratching first as if you learn to blend and beat match first, you'll master that and then not want to scratch.

Heh, I like to say I'm unmusical but I used to own a pair of 1210s myself, plus a nice Ecler mixer and Serato, used to like beatmatching and I was into that whole mashup/eclectic thing that was popular until around the time I sold my decks in 2011. Used to really enjoy it but I reached a point where I just wasn't getting as excited by new music. This coincided with me moving from London to the other end of the country so it seemed a good time to sell up. Also sold all but the most precious of my vinyl. Not been tempted to go back to it but I had a great time while the fun lasted.

So yes, I'm lying a bit when I say I'm not very musical. I can understand beats in a bar, bars in a measure, time signatures, tempos etc and I think a lot of the stuff I got a feel for while DJing has helped with learning the piano.

The piano certainly feels more intuitive than other instruments I've tried. During my first year at secondary school everyone had to play a different musical instrument each term, which I suspected was a sneaky way of trying to sell us music lessons more than anything else. Anyway, I played flute first and got thrown out of the class after one lesson because the teacher was an arsey twat who had a requirement that everyone in her class must have played recorder first, and no-one had bothered telling me when I was randomly assigned to that class. Then I played cello instead, which I couldn't get my head round at all, then oboe, which I was even more hopeless at.

The third term however I got percussion- mainly xylophones and glockenspiels, but also a bit of drumming- which I actually wasn't terrible at. With the xylophones and glockenspiels I think there was something about playing an instrument with the notes arranged in ascending order that just made more sense to me, not having to press on strings or whatever to get a certain note, and not having to worry about strumming patterns. Drums also made sense because I have a bit more of a feel for rhythm.

When I got a ukulele about ten years back I struggled with that because it just didn't make much sense to me, especially having to learn strumming patterns and read chord sequences, but sheet music for piano and just pressing the keys are things I can get my head round.

I also think the piano is simply the nicest-sounding instrument. As Piano (And Keyboard) For Dummies says, with a piano you can play entire pieces rather than just solo parts which makes it more satisfying to pick up than other instruments, and you can play pretty much any style of music on a piano so there's something out there for everyone.

Enough about me, I hope you're enjoying the DJing. I feel a bit guilty for having given it up but it just wasn't doing it for me anymore.

[Marner and Me]

I agree with Piano, that and drums would be the only other instruments I'd care to play. That is why I like the, scratching, it opens up and whole world of things to do with record players. I've replaced my Vestex mixer with a Traktor Z2 as I simply don't have the space to store vinyl.

Our music lessons at school were a waste of time, no one was interested and the teachers were a pushover. If I had my time again, I'd have tried to pay attention, sadly not.

Tbh when the beat matching clicks! I'll enjoy it. Until then it is hard work and a good challenge for the grey matter.

[the]

Me myself! Well after having a few goes on my mates 1210s I brought a pair myself, I'm learning to scratch and beat juggle first more for my own enjoyment. As that I have found is way more fun than the conventional thing of blending tracks one into another. My mate also suggested scratching first as if you learn to blend and beat match first, you'll master that and then not want to scratch.

This DVD is good for tips and techniques and practice, and helps you work out what sort of level you're at:

     

Scratching is very satisfying. I'm alright at it but my technique is sloppy as fuck (if recording I always edit to tidy it up).

[Blue Jam]

Tbh when the beat matching clicks! I'll enjoy it. Until then it is hard work and a good challenge for the grey matter.

Ever read this?



I borrowed it from someone a bit after I'd learned to beatmatch and a lot of the advice in it didn't make much sense to me, though other people tell me it's written in that way and the lessons are in that order for a reason. I found just pissing about with records was the best way to learn, and I probably had more fun while I was at it. That said it is a funny and well-written book, well worth a lend off someone.

With beatmatching, minimal house or techno records are a good place to start. It's much quicker and easier to match something around 120bpm than some hip hop (for example) around 80bpm. Sounds counterintuitive but it works because with faster records you can hear the beats going out of sync more quickly. With house records you can also focus on the hi-hats and then you'll know you've got the bars matched up. Some people learn using two copies of the same record, I never tried that but it makes sense.

I never bothered with scratching though, the insane amount of practice to git gud at that always put me off. It's impressive when done well but it's like sleight-of-hand, it takes a lot of work to make it look that easy.

Just finished tonight's piano practice. Got about an hour in. Put the Bowie book to one side and went back to the simple stuff, ended up doing some drills before playing Jingle Bells. A very slow, strangely depressing rendition of Jingle Bells, but hey, two hands!

[Blue Jam]

Another rendition of Life On Mars. Cried when I first heard this five years ago and I'm still welling up listening to it now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvwQBJgRz68

[Blue Jam]

Oh yes, and scratch DJ peeps: you need to check out Doug Prey's documentary Scratch:

https://youtu.be/A8aMMpoSUSQ

Don't laugh at the alien in Qbert's bedroom. It's not funny. Not at all.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

I sometimes wonder whether formally learning the piano/keyboard (rather than just memorising scales then pissing about, which is what I know) would help while learning a language. The whole notion of getting your brain to focus on a number of different tasks at once and prepping for what's ehad.

[flotemysost]

I also think the piano is simply the nicest-sounding instrument. As Piano (And Keyboard) For Dummies says, with a piano you can play entire pieces rather than just solo parts which makes it more satisfying to pick up than other instruments, and you can play pretty much any style of music on a piano so there's something out there for everyone.

This is exactly the logic that made me want to start learning piano when I was younger, that and the bit about having the keys all out there in front of you. Good effort with your learning, sounds like you're doing well!

I bought a dinky 37-key portable Yamaha keyboard back in March when lockdown looked imminent - I had lessons at school absolutely aeons ago, and have tinkered around when I've had the opportunity since, but I wouldn't confidently say "I can play the piano" so I'm basically the titular total n00b.

I've taught myself a few very simple things by ear (as in, literally listening to a few seconds of the song, pausing it, pawing the keys until I find the combination that sounds like what I just heard, then listening to the next bit of the song, etc.) - I should probably attempt to re-learn how to actually read notes so I can make use of sheet music, but my concentration is shot to shit at the moment. Also not having a sustain pedal means lots of stuff sounds terrible (or even more terrible than it already does) so I'm tempted to buy a cheap one.

Silly question maybe, but can anyone recommend any apps for idiots learning to read music? I suppose I'm thinking of something like DuoLingo but for sight reading. Cunt owl optional.

[Blue Jam]

Personally I've found the Piano For Total n00bs book I mentioned in the OP to have been very helpful with getting started, and Piano For Dummies has a bit more of the advanced theory. I've been surprised by how quickly I've picked up sight reading- I'm still pretty slow but I've got to "pretty slow" from "arrrgghh what the fuck is all this" in a few weeks and I never imagined that was possible.

As for apps, I tried Flowkey for a bit. That shows you the sheet music, the name of the notes and the finger positions on the screen of your phone or tablet, and via the microphone it can tell you if you've played the right note and will move the visuals along at your pace. It has a few free lessons but for the rest you need a subscription and that ain't cheap. I guess the cost of duplicating sheet music bumps the price of these things up a bit.

Also I don't like playing without headphones because I don't want to disturb my neighbours with my Les Dawson-level efforts, but if your home is a bit more soundproof than mine or you just hate your neighbours an app like Flowkey that listens to your playing and gives you feedback might suit you.

[flotemysost]

Cheers, that sounds great, will check it out!

Was living in a small, not very soundproof flatshare until recently, so I'm definitely more used to playing with headphones than not, and I've sort of developed an instinctive reflex to be mortified by hearing myself outside of that "cocoon". I'm on my own now and I suspect my neighbours most likely couldn't give a shit (going by their listening to music at all hours), so maybe now's a good time to get over that fear.

[Blue Jam]

Also while I haven't tried them myself Yousician Piano Edition and Simply Piano may also be worth checking out:

https://youtu.be/pAv98K0AtLY

This is what Flowkey looks like when you're using it, and the beginner level tunes have the names of the notes flashing up as well:

https://youtu.be/4anMftmkyUA

I know lot of people like to use mnemonics to remember note names (All Cows Eat Grass etc) but personally I loathe mnemonics, I just find them cluttering up my memory and leaving less space for the stuff they're supposed to be helping me remember. Again, pissing about is more my style.

[Marner and Me]

quote author=the link=topic=84697.msg4440273#msg4440273 date=1611178535]
This DVD is good for tips and techniques and practice, and helps you work out what sort of level you're at:

     

Cheers! I'll check it out! Qbert is an absolute god tbf. I was and still do use DJ Angelos Scratch Tutorials on YT, he breaks it down very well and with good instruction.

Scratching is very satisfying. I'm alright at it but my technique is sloppy as fuck (if recording I always edit to tidy it up).
[/quote]

Ever read this?

I've found using house tracks easier tbf, matching the same beat I can do, I have found within a couple of BPM you can get away without pitch adjustment, using the headphones (integral) is still what I'm getting used too, it will be one of them things for me, it will click and once it does I won't have an issue!

Nice one on the keyboard though!

[Blue Jam]

Silly question maybe, but can anyone recommend any apps for idiots learning to read music? I suppose I'm thinking of something like DuoLingo but for sight reading. Cunt owl optional.

Stumbled upon this yesterday:

https://www.sightreadingfactory.com/

I think you have to pay a subscription to access unlimited exercises but there are some free ones on there.

Here I'm still learning from books, bought a couple of new ones. One of Beatles piano solo arrangements and one with Bowie, Queen, The Doors and others. I decided to go for two books of authentic arrangements rather than simplified ones which are basically the vocal melody to try and stretch myself a bit. They're a bit too advanced for me right now but a bit more challenging and fun than just playing n00bified versions.

Anyone here had piano lessons as an adult or a nipper? I remember finding a few old threads on learning piano here and a few people recommended going for proper lessons "so you don't develop bad habits". That may not be an option right now but there are a couple of music schools near me and I could be tempted to have a go once the 'vid has fucked off.

That said, I remember how everyone at my school who did piano lessons absolutely fucking hated them and couldn't wait for the day they would be old enough to sack them off and then never touch a piano again. Then one of my Google searches on piano teachers threw up this, and I just thought "Well, I wouldn't want one of you lot as my piano teacher either, you miserable snobbish cunts":

https://forums.abrsm.org/index.php?s=aee823a74bd0f1c83f46dc269295b4a7&showtopic=42334

I also have a friend who started having lessons at four (with a jazz pianist I think) who never lost his love for the instrument and is now an insanely brilliant pianist and organist who plays for a living...

I guess it's a matter of finding the right teacher but it's a scary prospect knowing how it could go either way. Is learning an instrument as an adult a bit like learning a language- ie, more pleasant because you're not a captive audience with a teacher who doesn't give a shit if you're enjoying it or not because they get paid either way?

[Pink Gregory]

I'd love to learn piano (did buy a hammond organ for £70 like 10 years ago but it died), but as a guitar player I just can't get around doing functionally the same thing with both hands.  Played drums for a bit and opted for jazz-style grip for the same reasons.

[rue the polywhirl]

Piano playing is easier than guitar as well as being fundamentally similar if you want it to be. In both cases you can be holding down chords with one hand and picking out notes with the other. If you really want to play with just one hand get a shoulder keyboard!

[purlieu]

Learning piano properly (as well as the theory and note reading that would hopefully come with it) is on my goal list, but I keep worrying that I'm just leaving it too late. I always have about ten things on the go at once and I never seem to fit it in. I'm good enough at pratting around with a keyboard to have released music, but also enough to know my limitations, and I'd quite like to get past them.

[RenegadeScrew]

Piano playing is easier than guitar as well as being fundamentally similar if you want it to be. In both cases you can be holding down chords with one hand and picking out notes with the other. If you really want to play with just one hand get a shoulder keyboard!

Depends how you view it really.  It's easier to get a nice sound out of the piano, but way more difficult to learn chords and scales.  You need to learn everything in each key for the piano, whereas anything on the guitar can be trivially transposed up or down a key.

I suppose the piano is maybe easier in some respects due to the ease of playing chord inversions. 

At an advanced level, I can't think of any guitar playing that requires the left and right hand moving in different beat divisions, whereas for the piano that seems relatively common.

[Nobody Soup]

At an advanced level, I can't think of any guitar playing that requires the left and right hand moving in different beat divisions, whereas for the piano that seems relatively common.

At a highly advanced level guitarists do utilise techniques sort of similar to this, right and left handed tapping simultaneously and selective picking. It's not really subdividing two parts but does require a lot of finger independence. However it probably ignores the fact that the hand synchronisation required to play very fast on guitar is a whole problem in itself.

I wouldn't call either easier though, there's always gonna be someone who takes the instrument to ridiculous levels, if guitar was easier someone would just figure out how to make it harder.

[RenegadeScrew]

At a highly advanced level guitarists do utilise techniques sort of similar to this, right and left handed tapping simultaneously and selective picking. It's not really subdividing two parts but does require a lot of finger independence. However it probably ignores the fact that the hand synchronisation required to play very fast on guitar is a whole problem in itself.

I wouldn't call either easier though, there's always gonna be someone who takes the instrument to ridiculous levels, if guitar was easier someone would just figure out how to make it harder.

Yeah fair point.  I'm perhaps overplaying the need for a pianist to have independent hands/limbs as I don't play it really.  I can play chords slowly and some scales in C. Whereas I can play the guitar averagely.

It's difficult to say one is easier really as they both have their advantages.  Basic stuff (at least finger-wise) on the piano is difficult on the guitar and vice-versa.  Or even impossible.  It's a bit like comparing expressiveness really.

Every advantage probably has a disadvantage.  The guitar is way better for transposing chords/scales, but it also hides stuff to the average player as a result.  I've been able to play Blackbird for years but could barely tell you any notes in it other than G.  It's only really because of Ableton/Piano that I know the notes that make up the major/minor chords.

[Nobody Soup]

Yeah fair point.  I'm perhaps overplaying the need for a pianist to have independent hands/limbs as I don't play it really.  I can play chords slowly and some scales in C. Whereas I can play the guitar averagely.

It's difficult to say one is easier really as they both have their advantages.  Basic stuff (at least finger-wise) on the piano is difficult on the guitar and vice-versa.  Or even impossible.  It's a bit like comparing expressiveness really.

Every advantage probably has a disadvantage.  The guitar is way better for transposing chords/scales, but it also hides stuff to the average player as a result.  I've been able to play Blackbird for years but could barely tell you any notes in it other than G.  It's only really because of Ableton/Piano that I know the notes that make up the major/minor chords.

[RenegadeScrew]

Did you forget to type something, or did you just want to reiterate my late-night drunk and stoned ramblings?

[Nobody Soup]

Oops must have messed that up.

I was actually just saying I agree that piano is more natural to learn scales on because it's set out as a scaled instrument, certainly helped me learn what scales and modes were all about when I started pottering on piano.

Which is a tiny bit ironic as pianist ate normally taught in a classical way with no focus on improvisation, whereas guitarists are expected to be able to solo over chords and are the ones that actually use the theory. At least on the fly.

Anyway, in terms of ease, I do think being an average pianist will impress more people than being an average guitarist. You can play a full, lovely song on piano but unless you're blessed with a good voice to accompany some basic chords, learning a good solo arrangement on a guitar is usually a task.

[Blue Jam]

I was actually just saying I agree that piano is more natural to learn scales on because it's set out as a scaled instrument, certainly helped me learn what scales and modes were all about when I started pottering on piano.

I remember reading something about how someone who had bought a kalimba found it didn't make much sense to them so they  took off all the tines and arranged them in an asending scale. Just tried to find a link and it turns out a lot of people do this, and you can even buy a "linear kalimba", a modern, scaled version designed for those people who find the traditional arrangement of tines doesn't work with their playing style. Perhaps there's a reason why the kalimba is also known as the "thumb piano".

[RenegadeScrew]

Anyway, in terms of ease, I do think being an average pianist will impress more people than being an average guitarist. You can play a full, lovely song on piano but unless you're blessed with a good voice to accompany some basic chords, learning a good solo arrangement on a guitar is usually a task.

That's an interesting point.  I think it's also maybe related to how common it is to play the guitar versus the piano. I'd be more impressed by an average pianist, and even if they just played chords and sung badly.  About half my mates play guitar I think. 

In some ways, as a learner you just need to satisfy and impress yourself.  Being overly satisfied with yourself is quite a good way to inspire continued playing.  At least it was for me.

Another thing that it makes me think of is how taste in music affects the ease of learning an instrument.  And how the instrument is used too I suppose.  Some of the most difficult instruments to play are made even more difficult (I think) by their rareness in the majority of tunes, and the fact they usually play a background role or a virtuoso performance.

[Ferris]

^I'm a (self-taught) hack piano player, and it always impresses people more than being a self-taught guitar hack.

The less ubiquitous the instrument, the more people are impressed by my pretty mediocre standard (although again, I taught meself and I wasn't a good teacher as I knew nothing, so that's my excuse). Mandolin or banjo gets em going, piano as well if you can knock out a few carols and a happy birthday or similar. Ukulele gets you nothing in my experience.

Guitar is a bit passé, but I find myself thinking in "guitar" and translating to piano when improvising or doing chord progressions or whatever. I imagine that's how native language is for someone who is bilingual. Either way, it limits my piano playing which is hardly Rachmaninov to begin with.