Scottish Politics: Douglas Ross' Magic Roundabout

[Sherman Krank]

Boris is going to oppose it anyway, so probably this is an irrelevant consideration.

I'm assuming you're basing this on him constantly saying he'll block an independence referendum?
Sorry to break it to you but Boris Johnstone is not a trustworthy man and I doubt you'll ever hear him mention it again, unless it's to deny he ever said it.

..the SNP threaten to go to the courts and expect Boris to cave before it gets that far.

As I understand it, at some point in the future the Scottish Government (who are a government unlike the SNP who are a political party) will bring forward a referendum bill which is expected to pass, if at that point the Westminster government wishes to contest this legislation it is they who will have to start court proceedings. That said, Pob was running around TV stations this morning telling anyone who'd listen that they definitely wont be doing that (which of course means that they're going to pay someone to do it for them, probably Farage).

[greencalx]

"Sorry to break it to you" but I was using shorthands. Here I am trying to figure out the consequences of this election in good faith. Clearly that's upsetting for some people. Don't worry I won't bother again.

[dissolute ocelot]

Bonnie Prince Bob only got 363 in Edinburgh Central? I wasn't sure if he was really a harmless joke candidate, because there's a lot of these "no tourists, no students, no foreigners, local houses for local people" types who can switch from calling for a ban on unlicenced AirBnBs to bizarre conspiracy theories about council corruption and straightforward xenophobia.

Anyway, predictions for the future: I don't think Boris will really stop it, but equally he won't hurry it. And Sturgeon will want to be careful too, to ensure she has maximum chance of winning. Boris never cared about the north of England and cares even less about Scotland. If he was sensible (from his point of view) he'd try and exact concessions, maybe give the Scottish government control over the rest of the benefits system and in return try and abolish the Barnett formula. But we all now know how terrible Boris is at negotiating, so no worries there.

Hopefully the delay will allow the SNP to think what they want in terms of currency, economics, defence (clue: NOT FUCKING NATO), etc, and both sides to reflect how the border with England will work, based on the shitshow that is the Irish border, as well as what to do with the nukes, so a referendum isn't followed by about a decade of subsequent wrangling. But I hold zero expectation that this will happen: the SNP may make a little effort, the Tories none at all.

But mainly I'm looking forward to Kieth and Boris flying into Scotland hand in hand to save the union.

[Jumblegraws]

From the Alba Party thread:

Kenny MacAskill has defected, becoming the first ever Alba MP. He seemed the likeliest convert based on recent form.

Are there any other "big" names to follow? Alex Neil? George Kerevan?

It's certainly spiced up what was likely to be a very boring election campaign.

Joanna Cherry but be giving it serious thought, surely?

I suspect Cherry will keep her powder dry and wait and see whether the whole thing crashes and burns or not.

From twitter:

FANCY THAT

[Blinder Data]

I did wonder before the election whether we were going to end up with a similar result to 2016...

I think the SNP will be delighted with the result - 14 years in power (!) and they cleaned up the constituency votes with some impregnable majorities. No doubt that, like the Tories in England and Labour in Wales, incumbency during the vaccine rollout and lifting of restrictions was a massive help for this campaign.

There are benefits to not having a simple majority too: it gives them a decent excuse for not vigorously pressing ahead on how/when to deliver independence or even a referendum. They'll have to do a deal with the Greens and while they have been willing to back SNP budgets etc., this is something else entirely. I expect there to be lots of noise from Sturgeon but not much in the way of substance in terms of progressing the issue for at least 1-2 years.

Despite Scotland's apparent hatred of Boris Johnson and the haplessness of their own leader, the Scottish Tory vote share was virtually the same as last time! Astonishing. Truly, politics is not a meritocracy and ultra-unionism is one hell of a drug. Poor Scottish Labour - despite a decent campaign and receiving 1m votes compared the Tories 1.2m, the Tories got c50% more MSPs than them. The Holyrood electoral system is better than straight FPTP but it still doesn't quite generate the fairest results. As long as indyref remains on the table, SLab's vote will be squeezed and squeezed.

Lots of new faces in the parliament and it will be interesting to see which ones emerge as the bright stars - I was pleased to see Pam Duncan-Glancy get elected, for one.

[the hum]

FANCY THAT

Hehe called it! I guess if you're gonna grift effectively you've got to be practical sometimes. No doubt we'll see similar from MacNeill.

[pigamus]

Do you think Sturgeon would win a referendum? I might be wrong but I get the feeling people would get cold feet and stick with the devil they know.

[jobotic]

I think the potential behaviour of Johnson and the Tory press towards Scotland during a referendum campaign might help swing it YES's way.

[the hum]

Do you think Sturgeon would win a referendum? I might be wrong but I get the feeling people would get cold feet and stick with the devil they know.

I think a lot will depend on the competence (or otherwise) they display in the covid recovery process, which is going to be very tricky given Holyrood's lack of economic leverage, and of course, how badly Brexit plays out.

[Blinder Data]

This "Independent Green Voice" business is appalling - without them, the Greens would have had more MSPs! Before the election they changed their logo so it had GREEN in big letters and their name appeared above the official Green Party on the list ballot paper. Naturally, thousands didn't think to check.

I hope to God there are consequences.

The Scottish Greens have hit out at "blatant electoral deceit" after voters were confronted by two parties with similar names at last week's Holyrood poll.

The peach list ballot paper at the Scottish Parliament election included a fringe party called "Independent Green Voice" - which led a minimal campaign and returned no MSPs - as well as the better-known Scottish Green Party, led by Patrick Harvie and Lorna Slater.

If the Scottish Greens had won just a few hundred more list votes in the Glasgow region they would have returned a ninth MSP - instead the seat narrowly went to the Tories.

A similar scenario in the South Scotland region saw Harvie's party narrowly miss out on what would have been a 10th MSP for the party.

Independent Green Voice won more than 2,000 list votes in Glasgow despite having almost no online presence.

Alistair McConnachie - a former UKIP member and Holocaust denier - registered Independent Green Voice as a political party in 2003 and has stood at every Holyrood poll since.

A spokesman for the Scottish Greens said: %u201CIndependent Green Voice, now a front for fascists, was allowed to use a logo with %u2018green%u2019 in big letters and the other words in small print on the ballot paper.

"This attracted enough votes to potentially prevent two additional Scottish Green MSPs to be elected, one in Glasgow and one in the South of Scotland.

There are serious questions about how the Electoral Commission allowed such blatant electoral deceit.

The Record has asked the Electoral Commission for comment.

[jobotic]

What luck that it worked in the Tories' favour. This must be the kind of electoral fraud they're talking about stamping out.

[Rizla]

Fucking hell.

Bonnie Prince Bob only got 363 in Edinburgh Central? I wasn't sure if he was really a harmless joke candidate, because there's a lot of these "no tourists, no students, no foreigners, local houses for local people" types who can switch from calling for a ban on unlicenced AirBnBs to bizarre conspiracy theories about council corruption and straightforward xenophobia.

BPB stood because he wished to draw attention to the sheer arrogance of Angus Robertson's belief (proved correct) that he would waltz unchallenged into the seat, despite having no proper connection to the area, no reason to stand other than carpetbagging. When you talk about "bizarre conspiracies about council corruption" I can feel myself shaking with anger -do you live in Edinburgh? Do you have any idea the extent to which the council have monetised the city centre to their own advantage, and to the cost of the people who actually live here? We're being gradually shut out of our green spaces, Princes St gardens, the meadows, George sq, Inverlieth, the links, they're all seen by the council as venues they can pimp out to make money during hogmanay, the festival, more and more every year, with none, zero, zilch of the money finding its way back into the local community. The councillors grow wealthy as they consolidate their power, gaslighting the residents (like you?) to think that this is always how it was.

Hopefully the delay will allow the SNP to think what they want in terms of currency, economics, defence (clue: NOT FUCKING NATO),

Hahahahaha. Fuck sake. Mate. Mate
https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/13070652.case-staying-nato-angus-robertson/


There will never be independence. They don't want it. The SNP don't want it anymore. They want this, what they have, now. Forever. Don't you get it? Why can none of you get it?

[the hum]

Heh at least you didn't say "sheeple".

He grew up within the constituency btw.

And yeah the NATO thing is massively problematic.

But if you're one of that band identifying the SNP as the main obstacle to indy, then you're in your own (Wings inspired?) slumber. Be it Wings, be it Alba, be it Contercast. All different flavours of the same thing, skilled agitators, but not a fucking clue between them on how to achieve it. Did no-one notice how the "Plan B" chatter dried up as soon as Alba was announced? It shifted the onus onto them to provide it. But they couldn't. Because they had no idea.

[canadagoose]

One great thing about the election is the Abla supporters' rage on Twitter. Just one massive "Indy grassroots" tantrum. I was genuinely fearing that they might gain seats, but they barely even figured. What was the figure, 1.6% of the vote?

[Jumblegraws]

There will never be independence. They don't want it. The SNP don't want it anymore. They want this, what they have, now. Forever. Don't you get it? Why can none of you get it?

I've heard that line since the SNP got into government, the difference now is that the cohort of indy-supporters in love with Salmond are slurring it. The electorate were discombobulated and fatigued by the Brexit referendum. Then four years of dealing with the fallout, with thousands of people longing for stability of any sort. Then the pandemic hit. Launching indyref2 during that time wouldn't have just been doomed to failure, it would have been sadistic. Why don't you get it?

[Rizla]

Heh at least you didn't say "sheeple".

"Heh"

He grew up within the constituency btw.

I know. He went to the same school I did. He hasn't lived and worked here. While he's probably well clued in to the needs of his New Town voters, he has no clue about how the residents of Dumbiedykes, Dalry et al are affected by his party's policies. Or am I wrong, is he going to affect real change for those people?

But if you're one of that band identifying the SNP as the main obstacle to indy, then you're in your own (Wings inspired?) slumber. Be it Wings, be it Alba, be it Contercast. All different flavours of the same thing, skilled agitators, but not a fucking clue between them on how to achieve it. Did no-one notice how the "Plan B" chatter dried up as soon as Alba was announced? It shifted the onus onto them to provide it. But they couldn't. Because they had no idea.

I have heard of Wings but I've never read anything he/they have put out, ditto Alba, I've listened to two Contercast podcasts, not particularly interested.

I'm not actually that exercised by the idea of independence, I've only ever gone along with it because it seemed like a last ditch way of escaping a lifetime of tory rule and there was something in the air in 2014. I am a labour party member (still!!!). What I am is a lifelong resident of this city, with eyes and ears and a brain, and it pains me to see people I know and love posting "congratulations wee Nick! Not Long Now!" on facebook, because they imagine that she sits up at night over a candle in Bute House, conversing with the flickering shadows, saying "we will escape this yoke", that the SNP are some sort of freedom-fighting army, some bastion of social democracy because they deliver a box of tat to every newborn, when in fact they are careerist politicians whose first instinct is always to retain power and feather their own nests. We have the worst drugs death rate in Europe, I have lost count of the amount of friends I have that have committed suicide directly relating to benefits cuts. This place is fucked and these cunts aren't planning on doing anything about it - why would they, the formerly-labour well-meaning boomer crowd (inc. my entire family) will always vote them in. Always. No matter how many homeless people they encounter on the streets, no matter how much shitty student housing gets spewed up over the landscape, no matter how much of a hell-for-leather neoliberal hellscape they turn my city into. Every polling day it's

I've heard that line since the SNP got into government, the difference now is that the cohort of indy-supporters in love with Salmond are slurring it. The electorate were discombobulated and fatigued by the Brexit referendum. Then four years of dealing with the fallout, with thousands of people longing for stability of any sort. Then the pandemic hit. Launching indyref2 during that time wouldn't have just been doomed to failure, it would have been sadistic. Why don't you get it?

Always an excuse eh.

[Jumblegraws]

Yeah, cos constitutional thunderclaps and coronavirus pandemics are such convenient excuses, aren't they? You're a self-involved crank.

[canadagoose]

The thing is, I'm honestly not sure what else the SNP could have done in terms of independence. If another ref had been put forward in, I don't know, 2017, would they have won? Brexit hadn't really taken effect yet and independence wasn't polling that great. How legally binding would it have been, too?

I mean, I've not voted SNP since 2017 due to the transphobia issue not being properly sorted, and I voted Green in last week's election, as I've said. I don't know what could be done differently. Not really sure I really trust the remains of RISE anyway, and God forbid Tommy Sheridan gets back in Parliament.

[Rizla]

Yeah, cos constitutional thunderclaps and coronavirus pandemics are such convenient excuses, aren't they?

Do you think Indyref2 would have happened by now, if not for the b-word and the c-word? I suppose we'll never know.

You're a self-involved crank.

I'm a time-served, battle-scarred warrior for justice and equality. You are a naive apologist for neoliberalism.

[ProvanFan]

[Rizla]

Good hibby too, Bob. And producer of some cracking reggae tunes, if that's your cup of tea.

Angus, otoh -

Outside politics Robertson is a music fan, and particularly likes Metallica and Belle and Sebastian. He is a supporter of the Heart of Midlothian football team.

[Rizla]

The thing is, I'm honestly not sure what else the SNP could have done in terms of independence. If another ref had been put forward in, I don't know, 2017, would they have won?

2017? Why, back then they were only just discovering how comfy the chairs were at westminster.

[canadagoose]

2017? Why, back then they were only just discovering how comfy the chairs were at westminster.

I mean, Robertson had been an MP since 2001, he's hardly a newcomer. I still think they'd have struggled quite a lot to gain a majority for independence in 2017 though.

[Rizla]

I still think they'd have struggled quite a lot to gain a majority for independence in 2017 though.

Maybe, maybe not, but there's no way they would have called for one even if they'd know what the answer would be, for a variety of reasons that have already been discussed (too soon after the first one, brexit, nice comfy chairs at westminster). Will the electorate ever come to the realisation they've been had by a cabal of canny centrist career politicians? It seems doubtful. Scottish politics is reduced to a delightfully basic game of youns and yessers.  Meanwhile

[ajsmith2]

Sorry, but no way is the Baby box a 'box of tat'. The wee cow comforter toy included alone can make the difference between a contended child and a day of toddler turmoil. I'd more accurately describe the box as 'well intentioned and fit for purpose'.

[the hum]

I see Craig Murray's been banged up for 8 months. I don't think there's any question over his guilt, but handing out a harsh sentence like that is a pretty stupid move. It adds fuel to the fire for his conspiracy-addled followers, and also seems to present a double standard in that other journalists (Dani Garavelli), were 'at it' too during the Salmond trial (i.e. trying to jigsaw identify the complainants).

[Rizla]

Sorry, but no way is the Baby box a 'box of tat'. The wee cow comforter toy included alone can make the difference between a contended child and a day of toddler turmoil. I'd more accurately describe the box as 'well intentioned and fit for purpose'.

No, you're right, the cow comforter is great, and alone is enough to justify the £400 each box costs.

We've had two so far - we didn't really need the second one, but there's no provision for, say getting the money instead. Of course you get other things in it, such as a story book. We got -

The Kind Queen

Once upon a time there was a kind queen, but her subjects had a low quality-of-life life expectancy. She looked to nearby lands, where the people seemed much happier, fitter and healthier, and set out to find why this was.

She visited the land of the Finns, who told her that they enjoyed living in a cradle-to-grave social democracy, and that this began, and had done since 1938, with every newborn receiving a box of essentials. This served to bring the babe into the system, which would see to it they were kept happy and healthy til adulthood, through an interconnected series of well-funded social enterprises, health service and education system, all paid for by taxes.

"Tell me more about the boxes" said the queen.
"Well, they're not the point really - they serve as an inroad to the system, encouraging the young parents to register with a doctor, get checkups and immunisations later on, that kind of th.."
"So what goes in the boxes? Can you do deals with companies who want their products in the box?"
"Er, I suppose...That's not really why..."
"And I suppose every new parent posts photos of the box on social media, 'got my box today, thanks queen!'"
"Why would you want..."
"And all the children who got a box will grow up knowing that I, the kind queen, provided for them!"
"Yes but you have to have a properly functioning health service and things, you can't be selling off the hospital carparks and making doctors and nurses pay through the nose to park at their place of work, for example"
"We'll worry about that later, probably! Hurray, boxes for all!"

THE END?

[Rizla]

I see Craig Murray's been banged up for 8 months. I don't think there's any question over his guilt, but handing out a harsh sentence like that is a pretty stupid move. It adds fuel to the fire for his conspiracy-addled followers, and also seems to present a double standard in that other journalists (Dani Garavelli), were 'at it' too during the Salmond trial (i.e. trying to jigsaw identify the complainants).

Yeah, no biggy. Man's guilty, lock him up. Sends a message too. Poking his stupid nose in, endangering the outcome of the important trials of Salmond and *checks notes* some bloke called Assange.

Shame about his wife and two small children but the law's the law.

Agree about those stupid conspiracy addled idiots. As if the scottish state would ever feel the need to shut someone up who was a thorn in their side !

[Jumblegraws]

Yeah, no biggy. Man's guilty, lock him up. Sends a message too. Poking his stupid nose in, endangering the outcome of the important trials of Salmond and *checks notes* some bloke called Assange.

Shame about his wife and two small children but the law's the law.

Agree about those stupid conspiracy addled idiots. As if the scottish state would ever feel the need to shut someone up who was a thorn in their side !

If you weren't so set on blowing everyone's minds, you might have noticed that you more-or-less agreed with just about everything the hum said.

[Rizla]

If you weren't so set on blowing everyone's minds, you might have noticed that you more-or-less agreed with just about everything the hum said.

Oh, you!

I agree that Murray is "guilty", of a bizarre inflated charge that is impossible to defend, that might make Kafka go "fair play lads". I agree that handing out a harsh sentence is a stupid move, not as in "the silly judiciary have overplayed their hand and now the defendant's followers will think that he's been persecuted", but more that there is a "stupid", cruel and downright sinister form of legal injustice at play.

I was being sarcastic, you see! I actually think this whole thing is bullshit! But then I have no real stake in proceedings, there's nothing any of us can do, it's not like I didn't know the state was capable of this sort of thing, and I'd be lying if I said it really affected me one way or the other. Hey ho.