The Wire

[Endicott]

Sydnor going along with it is more of a stretch than Freamon.

[Wentworth Smith]

Again, it's not the believability of the ziggy story itself, it's that it all happens at the exact point in time that other incidents surrounding the docks happen, and that him killing the russian is conveniently timed to allow a break in the case that resolves the season. It's a deux ex machina. That alone would be forgivable as an isolated incident, a lucky break that happens all the time in reality, but the whole of the season is moved forward by one coincidence after another. Again, that wouldn't matter as much if it wasn't so narrative heavy, even more so than the other four seasons.

I've read the Homicide book and it's much more what I wish the Wire was - as it is non fiction, it has no overt story, it shows the police work as a boring daily grind like any other job. That might be another reason why watching the Wire after reading it I felt like all the plotty TV stuff jumped out that much more. I want to see a police show that really is just about the job as it really is, as it's portrayed in the book. The Wire is another form of procedural in some respects, but played out across seasons rather than single episodes. Not meaning any disrespect to it when I say that, but it's not quite what it's often described as.

Ziggy doesn't kill a Russian, he kills Double G. Ziggy cracking is built from the first time we see him: it is not a Deus Ex in any form, it's built into his whole story line of his constantly wanting to be someone and failing, seeing other, more competent, characters seemingly succeed and the constant disrespect he feels he gets. And its been a while but as I remember Double G's killing doesn't break open the case: it messes it up as it leads to the warehouse being cleared out.

Sticking with the 2nd season to say it has no characters is something I can't agree with. Frank is one of the best characters in the whole thing. His motivations are clear, and never at any point is he just doing stuff because the plot demands it. He wants the docks and the union to thrive: everything about him stems from that until the end when his family takes over (which ties in with Ziggy and how he acts: he only gets his Dad 100 % when it is too late).

[greenman]

The Wire as some kind of ultra realistic documentary series really I never agreed with, I think a lot of its success is that it manages to bring that kind of feel to something that's rather more contrived in character and plot, arguably much harder than simply making as realistic a police procedural as possible.

[Wentworth Smith]

The Wire as some kind of ultra realistic documentary series really I never agreed with, I think a lot of its success is that it manages to bring that kind of feel to something that's rather more contrived in character and plot, arguably much harder than simply making as realistic a police procedural as possible.

Yeah, I agree that it was never, in the telling if not reputationally, a hyper realistic look at police life. There are heightened moments and characters from the start: Omar may have elements taken from a real life character but he is a pure fiction on screen (long coat, shotgun, whistling, never swearing, his own code- he's a step away from starring in his own action movie).

[Endicott]

Ziggy doesn't kill a Russian, he kills Double G. Ziggy cracking is built from the first time we see him: it is not a Deus Ex in any form, it's built into his whole story line of his constantly wanting to be someone and failing, seeing other, more competent, characters seemingly succeed and the constant disrespect he feels he gets. And its been a while but as I remember Double G's killing doesn't break open the case: it messes it up as it leads to the warehouse being cleared out.

Lansman forgets to tell the team about G's murder, which means the drugs get poured down the drain before any meaningful search takes place. Do they actually read about Ziggy in the paper, and go and check out the shop? That might be the case, anyway when they gets there it's clean.

Sticking with the 2nd season to say it has no characters is something I can't agree with. Frank is one of the best characters in the whole thing. His motivations are clear, and never at any point is he just doing stuff because the plot demands it. He wants the docks and the union to thrive: everything about him stems from that until the end when his family takes over (which ties in with Ziggy and how he acts: he only gets his Dad 100 % when it is too late).

It's chock full of decent characters.

I think of the plot as completely character driven, personally.

There's only one reason that the team get put together, and that is because Valchek is using the police force for his own private vendetta.

There's only one reason the murdered prostitutes get put on the city's homicide unit's books, and that is because McNulty is a big enough arsehole to stick it to his old friends just to spite Rawls.

Ziggy's explosion, purely character driven.

[Endicott]

Yeah, I agree that it was never, in the telling if not reputationally, a hyper realistic look at police life. There are heightened moments and characters from the start: Omar may have elements taken from a real life character but he is a pure fiction on screen (long coat, shotgun, whistling, never swearing, his own code- he's a step away from starring in his own action movie).

I also agree with this. There are documentary realistic minor details, for example whenever a cop sits at his desk he puts his gun in the draw. And cops almost never have actual shootouts. The show is incredibly[nb]one whole year with the homicide dept, 4 years IIRC on the corners with Ed Burns. Burns actually used to be a detective and then went on work in the schools[/nb] well researched, but it's still a drama. It has to entertain.

One problem I have with the Homicide book, on second reading anyway, is that some passages are so fucking boring. I got bogged down last time, I expect I'll resurrect the re-read in due course. I mean I absolutely loved it the first time, but that was over 10 years ago when I was lapping up everything Wire related I could find.

[Endicott]

edit bug

[Dirty Boy]

George "Double G" Glekas is greek!

Oh fucking hell of course he is!

The Greek isn't actually Greek though, i remembered that at least (and the other guy (Eton?) is Israeli).

Talking of unlikely scenes that break the flow somewhat, what does everyone make of the Bunk and Jimmy "Fucking fuckitty fuck" scene from S1. It didn't bother me, but i gather some on here really hated it.

[Ferris]

Eytan (sp?) is Israeli, "The Greek" may or may not be Greek, Spiros[nb]although "many names, many passports" so who knows[/nb] and Glekas are Greek.

Chalk me up as another person who thought the "fuck" murder-solve scene was stupid.

[Dirty Boy]

You missed one out


"I don't need fucking canteen!"

[colacentral]

Ziggy doesn't kill a Russian, he kills Double G. Ziggy cracking is built from the first time we see him: it is not a Deus Ex in any form, it's built into his whole story line of his constantly wanting to be someone and failing, seeing other, more competent, characters seemingly succeed and the constant disrespect he feels he gets. And its been a while but as I remember Double G's killing doesn't break open the case: it messes it up as it leads to the warehouse being cleared out.

Sticking with the 2nd season to say it has no characters is something I can't agree with. Frank is one of the best characters in the whole thing. His motivations are clear, and never at any point is he just doing stuff because the plot demands it. He wants the docks and the union to thrive: everything about him stems from that until the end when his family takes over (which ties in with Ziggy and how he acts: he only gets his Dad 100 % when it is too late).

Ziggy's arrest is the reason why nick and Frank speak to the police.

Again, I don't want to go around in circles about this, but the point is not the believability of these situations in isolation, the point is that all of these things occur at the exact right time for the plot to happen. The plot is too big and cumbersome (easily the most complicated of the 5 seasons) and depends on all of these things to happen at the right time in order for the writers to get the desired outcome. You could strip it back and it would be stronger - valchek already launched the investigation, so you don't need the dead girls. What if the wire tap itself is the reason why a single dead smuggled girl is found? They're not woven together elegantly, it's mechanical story telling.

I just remembered another thing, the Russian on the phone: "did he have a head? Then it wasn't us." Lucky they found the guy floating headless with easily identifiable tattoos and they have the Russian delivering that incriminating dialogue. Again, that could happen in real life, but it's another lucky break occurring at just the right time. Also, iirc, at no other point in the series does a wire tap recording give such obvious incriminating evidence like that, it's usually innuendo pieced together. In fact, it's made a big deal of that Stringer cracks and talks openly about a murder at the end of season 3, and they undercut the hollywood nature of that by having him be immediately murdered.

Compare it to literally any of the other seasons and you might be able to point to one or two things as convenient for the plot, but not as many. For example, Wallace is almost the ziggy role in season 1, the drug dealer who doesn't belong in that world, and his disillusionment is a big aspect of what leads to the arrests. But it makes sense that at any one time there would be a teenager like that, who sees a murder he indirectly played a part in, and ends up speaking to the police. That's more plausible than season 2's very specific chain of events that had to happen at the times they did.

To elaborate on my previous posts, it also occurred to me that season 4 is the one where the police story takes the biggest back seat. It's really all about what a fuck up Herc is, and by contrast what a positive influence Carver is learning to become. There's less of a procedural element to the story telling and that's to its benefit.

[Endicott]

"I don't need fucking canteen!"

Did he have hands? Did he have a face? Yes? Then it wasn't us...

[mr. logic]

Ziggy doesn't kill a Russian, he kills Double G. Ziggy cracking is built from the first time we see him: it is not a Deus Ex in any form, it's built into his whole story line of his constantly wanting to be someone and failing, seeing other, more competent, characters seemingly succeed and the constant disrespect he feels he gets. And its been a while but as I remember Double G's killing doesn't break open the case: it messes it up as it leads to the warehouse being cleared out.

Sticking with the 2nd season to say it has no characters is something I can't agree with. Frank is one of the best characters in the whole thing. His motivations are clear, and never at any point is he just doing stuff because the plot demands it. He wants the docks and the union to thrive: everything about him stems from that until the end when his family takes over (which ties in with Ziggy and how he acts: he only gets his Dad 100 % when it is too late).

And another point on Ziggy. He is being ripped off after pulling the job off perfectly. He's had a season of shit about what a fuck up he is, what a loser. Then he comes up with a genuinely great plan to steal the cars, and make it look like an outside job. And it still doesn't matter. He's still a chump. The camera crawling away from his newly stolen car before, as though forgetting something, going back to the window to look at him thumping the wheel in fury and pulling out the gun is one of television's most memorable moments, and it's at the end of a nuanced, deftly done character study

[Endicott]

Ziggy's arrest is the reason why nick and Frank speak to the police.

I've been mulling this over and I think it's debatable. Nick speaks to the police because Frank's been murdered, no other reason at that stage. That still leaves Frank of course. Nicky is also involved and Frank wants to help him as well as Ziggy. Also, Beadie practically has to beg him to come in. Yes, he takes advantage of the situation but to say it's the main reason or only reason is too simplistic, I think.

[Sonny_Jim]

what does everyone make of the Bunk and Jimmy "Fucking fuckitty fuck" scene from S1

I thought it was fun!  I can see why it would wind people up (cops wouldn't act like that in real life) but I didn't find it distracting at all.  'Show don't tell' and all that.

[jobotic]

Did Wallace speak to the police? Or did they just suspect he had? I can't remember. If only he'd stayed out in the sticks.

I think Ziggy was a fantastic character personally.

I've never seen JD Williams (Bodie) or Tray Chaney (Poot) in anything else, not that I watch much US TV. They were both really good.

[Endicott]

Did Wallace speak to the police? Or did they just suspect he had? I can't remember. If only he'd stayed out in the sticks.

I think Ziggy was a fantastic character personally.

I've never seen JD Williams (Bodie) or Tray Chaney (Poot) in anything else, not that I watch much US TV. They were both really good.

Yes, he did. I think McNulty went looking for him, possibly. I remember him giving a couple of cops some beers to stake out the projects and I think that was while waiting for Wallace to show up. Daniels eventually took him to the sticks to stay with his grandma, but he couldn't keep away.

[jobotic]

Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about Daniels taking him there. Bodie and Poot executing him is probably the scene that sticks in my mind the most. Heartbreaking.

[Endicott]

Yeah. They had no evidence of course, just Stringer's call to arms in the back of a car. And Stringer was just clearing up weak elements, I don't think he knew either. They were dealing with a potential snitch as far as they were concerned. It's an amazing sequence, heartbreaking as you say.

[druss]

WHERE WALLACE AT?

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

The Wire as some kind of ultra realistic documentary series really I never agreed with, I think a lot of its success is that it manages to bring that kind of feel to something that's rather more contrived in character and plot, arguably much harder than simply making as realistic a police procedural as possible.

I also agree, clearly true.

When people misinterpret the intentions of a piece then the analysis is doomed from the start as it is being viewed with the wrong lens.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

it's at the end of a nuanced, deftly done character study

Hmm, I think it is pretty clear where Ziggy's character is going, so 1) the fact he is really irritating on screen and 2) it's fairly obvious in most scenes what he's going to do, becomes tedious to watch, outweighing and spoiling any attempted payoff or gravitas with his character arc.

[colacentral]

I also agree, clearly true.

When people misinterpret the intentions of a piece then the analysis is doomed from the start as it is being viewed with the wrong lens.

Not sure if this is directed at me, but my point is that the second season fails in its intentions, when the seams of the plot show so clearly and you can so clearly feel the hand of the writer. In fact, the fifth season is often maligned for what you're saying, that it's ridiculous and it would never happen; implicitly, the second season is often praised because it seems grounded in reality and tightly plotted. But for me the plot tries too hard to be big and complex, undermining that reality. I'd take a more straight forward story like season 5's serial killer, as absurd as it is, because whether you accept the chain of the events as plausible is secondary to exploring McNulty's character; in other words, the question is more "what will McNulty do and what will happen to him?" than "how will the crime story of this season be resolved?" *

I also never had an issue with the believability of Hamsterdam, because that is just one "what if?" conceit to allow the rest of the story to happen, and is a way in to exploring more about certain characters, like how Stringer, Bubbles, Herc etc all react differently to it, meaning again that the "reality" of it is secondary to making a point about the characters.

In other words, a lack of "believability" in the writing is not necessarily the same thing as contrived writing, even though I've probably used the terms interchangeably here, confusing things.


* Obviously, the newspaper story with it's bland 2 dimensional characters is what sinks that season more than anything; I'm certainly not defending that.

[sevendaughters]

Realism has never been about 'recreating reality', it's more to do with a socially-concerned form of looking (usually from a somewhat bourgeois remove) at the relationship between institution and individual. There is no realist fiction that doesn't ultimately deal some slight narrative convenience or generic archetype; the point is not to make that the point.

[Utter Shit]

I've never seen JD Williams (Bodie) or Tray Chaney (Poot) in anything else, not that I watch much US TV. They were both really good.

Bodie has been in tons of things, I remember he was in the excellent The Night Of for example. Never seen Poot in anything else.

Bodie was my boy, definitely my favourite character in the show.

[colacentral]

Realism has never been about 'recreating reality',

I agree.

[Gulftastic]

Bodie is part of the botched truck robbery in the season one ep of The Sopranos.

[Sebastian Cobb]

He was in Oz as well wasn't he? Must be minor HBO royalty.

[Dirty Boy]

One thing i've never quite understood is the significance of Freamon apparently being able to read numbers in the S3 phone scam (selling the tapped burners to Bernard and Squeak). Was it just a matter of them trusting him?

[Bazooka]

He was in Oz as well wasn't he? Must be minor HBO royalty.

Yes as Kenny Wangler for 4 seasons.