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Lettings deposit dispute, AKA give me my money you fucking awful cunts

Started by The Mollusk, February 01, 2021, 04:08:03 PM

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peanutbutter

Got one for here, my old agency is claiming 100 in cleaning costs.

There was one unswept spot on the floor, a sticker on a door and a couple of things in a wardrobe someone had to carry down to a bin. There was an unremoved sticker and a couple of things in a wardrobe when I moved in too and I was never provided an inventory mentioning these things. They've also provided an invoice that's a photo of someone's notebook with "£100 cash - cleaning [apartment number and location]"


Do you reckon I can contest this claim and get the full deposit back? This is an absolutely tiny studio with no carpets and quite old furnishings, but I gather end of tenancy cleanings have a base market price so they could theoretically argue their floor sweep was market rate

Shoulders?-Stomach!


An tSaoi

Quote from: The Mollusk on May 09, 2021, 08:38:30 PM
Hilariously, they replied to me a couple of weeks ago with the shittest response ever, something like "Thank you for your review. If you would like to discuss any of the issues mentioned please give us a call.

"DISCUSS THIS!" (grab your crotch at this moment)

flotemysost

Quote from: peanutbutter on May 09, 2021, 08:39:16 PM
Got one for here, my old agency is claiming 100 in cleaning costs.

There was one unswept spot on the floor, a sticker on a door and a couple of things in a wardrobe someone had to carry down to a bin. There was an unremoved sticker and a couple of things in a wardrobe when I moved in too and I was never provided an inventory mentioning these things. They've also provided an invoice that's a photo of someone's notebook with "£100 cash - cleaning [apartment number and location]"


Do you reckon I can contest this claim and get the full deposit back? This is an absolutely tiny studio with no carpets and quite old furnishings, but I gather end of tenancy cleanings have a base market price so they could theoretically argue their floor sweep was market rate

If they never gave you an inventory when you moved in then that definitely seems a bit dodge. However from experience they might just stubbornly keep parroting the same line about requiring the flat to be cleaned to a professional standard or something until you relent (they hope).

Also, has it been more than 10 working days since the end date of your tenancy, and if so did they mention anything in the meantime or is this the first you've heard from them? Obviously check the wording of your contract, but I think the standard template lots of agencies use states that if neither party contests/raises anything (normally has to be in writing) within 10 working days following the end of the tenancy, then legally they have to release the full deposit back to you (someone with more expertise in this area do correct me if that's wrong, though).

That's normally my tactic - just sit it out, say sweet FA then chase them up for what they legally owe you. Currently playing the waiting game on the studio flat I moved out of last month. Few more days now. It was also fucking filthy, broken shower, lightbulbs not working etc. when I moved in (again, no mention/photos of this on the inventory) so if they try to pull anything over they're having a laugh.

peanutbutter

Quote from: flotemysost on May 09, 2021, 08:58:07 PM
If they never gave you an inventory when you moved in then that definitely seems a bit dodge. However from experience they might just stubbornly keep parroting the same line about requiring the flat to be cleaned to a professional standard or something until you relent (they hope).

Also, has it been more than 10 working days since the end date of your tenancy, and if so did they mention anything in the meantime or is this the first you've heard from them? Obviously check the wording of your contract, but I think the standard template lots of agencies use states that if neither party contests/raises anything (normally has to be in writing) within 10 working days following the end of the tenancy, then legally they have to release the full deposit back to you (someone with more expertise in this area do correct me if that's wrong, though).

That's normally my tactic - just sit it out, say sweet FA then chase them up for what they legally owe you. Currently playing the waiting game on the studio flat I moved out of last month. Few more days now. It was also fucking filthy, broken shower, lightbulbs not working etc. when I moved in (again, no mention/photos of this on the inventory) so if they try to pull anything over they're having a laugh.
They raised it within the ten days, I haven't responded directly to them or DPS since they sent me the shite invoice though

Place I've moved into since done a crazy detailed inventory (dozens of photos and quite scathing regarding the condition of things at points) so I'm not sure if that's meant to be the standard they're done to to have a  leg to stand on wrt deposit claims

AllisonSays

They're obliged to give you a full breakdown of costs, which that (hilarious) notebook picture is purporting to be but obviously isn't. Asking them for that is a good start before taking up a complaint or a claim via the DPS process.

PlanktonSideburns

Quote from: The Mollusk on May 09, 2021, 08:38:30 PM
Hilariously, they replied to me a couple of weeks ago with the shittest response ever, something like "Thank you for your review. If you would like to discuss any of the issues mentioned please give us a call."

FUCKING APOLOGISE TO ME!!! HOW HARD IS IT?!

We were with haart last time. Similar if less arduous time. Should be landlord licences and no estate agents

Sebastian Cobb

When I moved into this place I thought the inventory was fair enough, maybe a bit high-level in places but there were shitloads of photos and they even did things like the fridge/freezer. It wasn't quite clear in the photos that some of the trays in the freezer were cracked and they didn't take a photo of the oven, which contained no oven racks (?). I replied asking them to acknowledge these points but I don't think they did, although I've still got the email trail so I guess that's good enough right?


PlanktonSideburns

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on May 09, 2021, 10:46:51 PM
When I moved into this place I thought the inventory was fair enough, maybe a bit high-level in places but there were shitloads of photos and they even did things like the fridge/freezer. It wasn't quite clear in the photos that some of the trays in the freezer were cracked and they didn't take a photo of the oven, which contained no oven racks (?). I replied asking them to acknowledge these points but I don't think they did, although I've still got the email trail so I guess that's good enough right?

Flee the country while you can mate. You're so fucked

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: PlanktonSideburns on May 09, 2021, 10:50:50 PM
Flee the country while you can mate. You're so fucked

The door open button of the microwave has snapped the plastic bits that stop the spring-loaded button from falling out so it falls out but I reckon I'm just going to open it up and find the plastic bits and glue them back on haphazardly so it becomes a problem for someone else. I think that's possibly morally low but I reckon it's easier than trying to not get bilked out of replacing a microwave.

PlanktonSideburns


flotemysost

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on May 09, 2021, 10:46:51 PM
When I moved into this place I thought the inventory was fair enough, maybe a bit high-level in places but there were shitloads of photos and they even did things like the fridge/freezer. It wasn't quite clear in the photos that some of the trays in the freezer were cracked and they didn't take a photo of the oven, which contained no oven racks (?). I replied asking them to acknowledge these points but I don't think they did, although I've still got the email trail so I guess that's good enough right?

The agency for my last place (who I'm currently playing the waiting game with re: deposit) never replied to any of my multiple emails about all the (quite significant) problems with the flat, presumably trying to absolve themselves of any paper trail, except one extremely brief, terse reply initially to say "We do not deal with maintenance, this is managed by the landlord Mr. [name], please call him on this number" (it was actually a relative of the landlord who answered to the number, daughter I think - I later found out the landlord himself lives in Turkey).

Anything else the agency wanted to contact me for, they would always call me (and seemed bemused that I didn't always pick up on the first go, despite me telling them repeatedly that I'm often on work calls during the day and it would be better if they could email, if possible).

I think as long as at least you can prove you flagged up this stuff then that's better than nothing. That's what I'm hoping, anyway.

checkoutgirl

I know I'm late to this thread but isn't the easiest way to deal with this to just not pay them the last month or two rent and pocket the rent money as if it was the deposit? Then you owe them money and good luck getting it Jack. You get some of their money plus the added boost of fucking over a landlord.

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: flotemysost on May 09, 2021, 11:08:45 PM
The agency for my last place (who I'm currently playing the waiting game with re: deposit) never replied to any of my multiple emails about all the (quite significant) problems with the flat, presumably trying to absolve themselves of any paper trail, except one extremely brief, terse reply initially to say "We do not deal with maintenance, this is managed by the landlord Mr. [name], please call him on this number" (it was actually a relative of the landlord who answered to the number, daughter I think - I later found out the landlord himself lives in Turkey).

Anything else the agency wanted to contact me for, they would always call me (and seemed bemused that I didn't always pick up on the first go, despite me telling them repeatedly that I'm often on work calls during the day and it would be better if they could email, if possible).

I think as long as at least you can prove you flagged up this stuff then that's better than nothing. That's what I'm hoping, anyway.

That's bad, I know agents pretty much work exclusively for the landlord rather than managing between the two but at least they have a list of numbers for repairs, and emergency repairs when something like a pipe bursts in the middle of the night!


With any actual problems, the person in charge of sorting them for me has actually been good. A while back my downstairs neighbour knocked on my door and told me there was a small wet patch forming on their ceiling. I had a look at any obvious places water could leak from and they weren't leaking and from the location I guessed it was the central heating under the floor. I emailed them and they said they'd get someone out tomorrow, which would've been a Sunday.

They forgot to tell me when they were coming so I was a bit surprised when the engineer turned up. He told me it was impossible for it to be the heating because the pipes went from the roof down the walls, odd given there is no loft and there's an obvious warm patch where the pipes run in the floors, but he's the expert. He said he'd knock downstairs and have a look/tell them to speak to their landlord as it could be their pipes.

I hoped that would be the end of it but my neighbour popped up Monday to tell me it was worse, so I spoke to the agent again, and had a chat with my neighbours agent as well as my neighbour didn't want to be passing messages about (fair enough). At this point there was a bit of a stalemate, downstairs agent was convinced it was my flat, my agent had been told by the engineers that it couldn't be, they had also not been able to speak to my landlord to confirm if they knew, although they had another let in the building and spoke to that landlord who seemed to think they ran down too (I think the confusion is because the pipes don't come up from the floor, they pop out a hole in the wall behind the radiator). At this point the agents had to negotiate, downstairs had to get their people in to cut an inspection hole in the ceiling and confirm it wasn't them, and if it wasn't they could come and lift my floor and sort it.

It was coming from my floor, so in came their engineers (who were much more personable and happy to explain things than the patronising git who was wrong in the first place). It sort of was the central heating system, but not the heating pipes (hence no pressure dropping on the boiler). Turns out there's a waste condensation pipe running under the floor to the drains for the sink/bathroom that the boiler drips water into, and when the chipboard underfloor was fitted someone managed to put a nail through it, and that had suddenly started to leak. I think it hadn't been a problem before, but because of winter, I'd been working from home and had the heater on a lot more so it was sending more water down there.

It was a bit stressful being stuck in the middle of it; it wasn't causing me a problem but I didn't know what was going on and I didn't want the person downstairs to think I didn't care (obviously it was worse for them) and I was really worried I'd be stuck as a middleman for too long with nobody taking responsibility. I'd have preferred if it was a slightly more serious problem just impacting me!

Also I kind of worried that it was somehow down to me splashing water around the bathroom when doing homebrew stuff, despite it being really implausible given the placement and the fact I did mop up after soaking the place once I was done. Paranoia though eh.

peanutbutter

Quote from: AllisonSays on May 09, 2021, 10:32:12 PM
They're obliged to give you a full breakdown of costs, which that (hilarious) notebook picture is purporting to be but obviously isn't. Asking them for that is a good start before taking up a complaint or a claim via the DPS process.
I think that is the breakdown? do you mean something like "would it be possible to get a breakdown from the cleaner of how it cost so much?"

The other thing is they claimed the electricity metre was overdrawn (it wasn't, it was at 0, and I got it overdrawn), but in their formal claim it was just the 100 for cleaning. Oh and before actually submitting the claim they had said the cost of cleaning would be 130.

If there's no risk of them adding extra charges on now the ten days have passed I'll be happy to go into full cunt mode on them. Wouldn't mind if it was an actual cleaner who got the money for an easy daya's work but I don't see any evidence that it was.

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on May 09, 2021, 10:46:51 PM
When I moved into this place I thought the inventory was fair enough, maybe a bit high-level in places but there were shitloads of photos and they even did things like the fridge/freezer. It wasn't quite clear in the photos that some of the trays in the freezer were cracked and they didn't take a photo of the oven, which contained no oven racks (?). I replied asking them to acknowledge these points but I don't think they did, although I've still got the email trail so I guess that's good enough right?
I think in the scenario of the oven they just don't have a leg to stand on there? They probably wouldn't even try to claim it if they're actually trying to do things above board. Like, a landlord that wants all that added effort doesn't want to be dealing with disputes and shit.

AllisonSays

https://www.tenancydepositscheme.com/ask-tds-is-it-reasonable-landlord-claim-money-my-deposit-without-cost-breakdown/

It doesn't seem to me like 'cleaning' is a sufficiently granular or detailed breakdown of costs- cleaning what, why and for how long is what you'd want to know, really. If they're charging you 100 quid for dusting a mantelpiece or whatever that's how you'll find out.

The Mollusk

Quote from: peanutbutter on May 09, 2021, 08:39:16 PM
Got one for here, my old agency is claiming 100 in cleaning costs.

There was one unswept spot on the floor, a sticker on a door and a couple of things in a wardrobe someone had to carry down to a bin. There was an unremoved sticker and a couple of things in a wardrobe when I moved in too and I was never provided an inventory mentioning these things. They've also provided an invoice that's a photo of someone's notebook with "£100 cash - cleaning [apartment number and location]"


Do you reckon I can contest this claim and get the full deposit back? This is an absolutely tiny studio with no carpets and quite old furnishings, but I gather end of tenancy cleanings have a base market price so they could theoretically argue their floor sweep was market rate

You absolutely should contest it and the start of your argument should be mentioning the fact that there's no original inventory and therefore no documented proof that the property was professionally cleaned when you moved in. They're almost certainly trying it on with you but cut them short at the earliest possible hurdle and then consider your options based on how they respond to that.

Quote from: checkoutgirl on May 09, 2021, 11:22:36 PM
I know I'm late to this thread but isn't the easiest way to deal with this to just not pay them the last month or two rent and pocket the rent money as if it was the deposit? Then you owe them money and good luck getting it Jack. You get some of their money plus the added boost of fucking over a landlord.

No that's absolutely not the best way to go about things at all. As a tenant you have very little grounds for actual refusal to pay the rent, even if the property is rendered unliveable via something like a pest infestation or the bath coming through the ceiling everything has to be mutually agreed or they'll fuck you on technicalities some way or another. Refusal to pay rent is probably something a lot of renters think they can throw at their landlords so ultimately that's one of the big things they're going to safeguard themselves against. I wouldn't advise it at all.

The Mollusk

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on May 09, 2021, 10:46:51 PM
When I moved into this place I thought the inventory was fair enough, maybe a bit high-level in places but there were shitloads of photos and they even did things like the fridge/freezer. It wasn't quite clear in the photos that some of the trays in the freezer were cracked and they didn't take a photo of the oven, which contained no oven racks (?). I replied asking them to acknowledge these points but I don't think they did, although I've still got the email trail so I guess that's good enough right?

As flotesmysost says, the main thing is you've got a time-stamped paper trail of raising these issues which will back you up a great deal of it ever comes to a legal dispute. Realistically I think they want that as little as you do, but they're just fucking lazy and useless about such trivial issues that you're well within reason to worry about. So they'll do fuck all about it but when you come to vacate, you can flag it all up and they'll eventually go "fair enough" and drop it. It is, as we all know, a dismal system for this reason among others but at least you know you're doing the right thing.

Re: shitloads of photos on the inventory, if it was done by a third party company (like mine) this is totally fair enough. In order to remain entirely objective it's important to be as thorough as possible and I always ensure to do so mostly because I want the tenant to have as much coverage as possible. If your inventory is vague about describing a stained carpet and the photos don't back it up those non-specifics could end up being difficult points of argument at the end of the tenancy. Typically I take around 40-60 photos per room depending how heavily furnished it is or how many strong conditional defects it has.

However with this in mind it is a load of shite that they didn't photograph those affected areas properly! That sort of thing does my nut in.

touchingcloth

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on May 09, 2021, 10:46:51 PM
When I moved into this place I thought the inventory was fair enough, maybe a bit high-level in places but there were shitloads of photos and they even did things like the fridge/freezer. It wasn't quite clear in the photos that some of the trays in the freezer were cracked and they didn't take a photo of the oven, which contained no oven racks (?). I replied asking them to acknowledge these points but I don't think they did, although I've still got the email trail so I guess that's good enough right?

For proper belt and braces you could look into seeing whether you can get your hands on SMTP logs showing that the emails were received so they can't plead not to have received them.

checkoutgirl

Quote from: The Mollusk on May 10, 2021, 07:41:47 AMI wouldn't advise it at all.

Maybe it's different in England. I saw a piece on renting in America and entities are allowed make internet databases on tenants renting history. So a landlord can go on there and find the last 5 places someone lived and if they owed any money etc. Then the cops will collude with the landlords to do evictions etc. That shit would never happen in Ireland, you can't get that information because it's nobody's business.

America and England are very similar in how they treat the average person so you're probably right not to advise it, unless you live in Ireland of course.

Icehaven

You also need references from former landlords/letting agents if you're moving into another rental, so you're potentially shafting yourself if you mess about too much leaving your last place. I don't know how easy it is to bullshit that you lived with your parents/friends before or if they have ways of finding out you didn't, but when I moved recently I had to provide loads of ID, bank statements, payslips, driving licence etc. which all had an address on so it wouldn't be hard for them to check.

AllisonSays

You can do the withhold one month's rent, lose the deposit and keep the rent thing in the UK as long as you've found somewhere to stay beforehand, or have a friend who can falsify a reference for you which is pretty easily done. But I wouldn't recommend it either, necessarily, just because it can be stressful. A lot of the time you can get plenty back on the deposit just by pushing them a bit, asking them to clarify, being a bit of a pain (ideally informed by some knowledge of tenants' rights).

flotemysost

Quote from: peanutbutter on May 10, 2021, 12:57:37 AM
The other thing is they claimed the electricity metre was overdrawn (it wasn't, it was at 0, and I got it overdrawn), but in their formal claim it was just the 100 for cleaning. Oh and before actually submitting the claim they had said the cost of cleaning would be 130.

This is something else I'm confused about - my old flat was metered too (both elelctric and gas), and because I was worried during last winter that I might have to isolate (or otherwise be unable to get to the shops for any reason) and be stuck indoors unable to work/watch anything/shower if it ran out, I kept it topped up far higher than I probably needed to (also just because the electric meter was in a ridiculously unsafe outdoor unit which I had to stand on a chair to reach and poke around in the dark to find the slot, so it wasn't something I wanted to do more often than necessary).

Anyway, so when I moved out, there was a fair amount of money left on the meters - about £70 combined. I took photos of the readings and emailed these to the agency the day I moved out (I posted my keys through their office letterbox that same day so they can go see for themselves I'm not bullshitting). There was nothing on the gas and maybe a quid or two on the electric when I moved in (I didn't photograph this at the time as no one actually showed me where the fucking meters were, I had to work it out myself - obviously after all the lights and power suddenly went out at around 1am, while it was pissing down outside, and I didn't think to whip the camera out at that point).

Obviously it's my own fault for not managing my usage very well (though that's for the aforementioned reasons), and it's not like I urgently need that sum of cash, but essentially the new tenant is going to get at least a couple of months of free power if the agency don't do anything. I doubt they'll have much sympathy, I don't have much sympathy for myself here either, but would it be normal/OK to bring it up or should I not bother?

The email I sent when I moved out just stated that I'd cleaned the flat for checkout and returned the keys, and then stated the amount left on the meters (with photos) - I didn't want to ask for anything before they did the checkout in case it compromised any deposit stuff. Should I say anything? Or will they just see it as the equivalent of when you move in somewhere and it's all clean and fine but you randomly end up inheriting a nice cheese grater or something that the previous tenant left behind in the kitchen drawers?

Re: withholding rent, Shelter strongly advise against doing this, as others have said it doesn't seem like a wise idea at all, as tempting as it can be.

touchingcloth

Quote from: flotemysost on May 11, 2021, 01:12:09 AM
The email I sent when I moved out just stated that I'd cleaned the flat for checkout and returned the keys, and then stated the amount left on the meters (with photos) - I didn't want to ask for anything before they did the checkout in case it compromised any deposit stuff. Should I say anything? Or will they just see it as the equivalent of when you move in somewhere and it's all clean and fine but you randomly end up inheriting a nice cheese grater or something that the previous tenant left behind in the kitchen drawers?

It seems like something you'd need to take up with the power company. Did you not have to close a contract down when you moved out and provide final readings to them? I've never used a prepay meter but presumably they need a named contract holder with people able to cancel and switch suppliers?

flotemysost

Quote from: touchingcloth on May 11, 2021, 10:40:21 AM
It seems like something you'd need to take up with the power company. Did you not have to close a contract down when you moved out and provide final readings to them? I've never used a prepay meter but presumably they need a named contract holder with people able to cancel and switch suppliers?

Nope, or if I did then nobody bothered to tell me. Just got left a couple of fob/stick things that you take to the shop to put cash on, then stick it in the meter to top up (hence my worry about it running out if I couldn't leave the flat).

Icehaven

Oh meters. Where we've just moved is on gas and leccy meters, which I've never had before, but I don't mind too much as it's easier to manage than bills, although we obviously inherited some debt when we moved in as I put £30 on both and they immediately went down to £12 and £20, which was annoying but whatever. Anyway. Last week the electric one ran out completely, which was my fault as I hadn't been keeping much of an eye on it, and we had the emergency of a fiver or whatever it is to use and it was the middle of the day anyway so it wouldn't have been an issue, except the power cut set off the fucking burglar alarm, which I hadn't even realised was working, and I couldn't switch the bastard off.

I'd asked the letting agent for the code for the alarm when we moved in, but they didn't know it so I'd just assumed it wasn't active and forgot about it (I think alarms are virtually useless anyway tbh), but because the power had been cut it was going off outside, and when I turned the fuse for that area off it set the internal alarm beeping ominously for few minutes then going bananas, deafeningly loud, so I'd turn the fuse back on and off it went outside again. Pressing anything on the keypad did nothing, so I frantically rang the agent and they said they'd send someone round within the hour, however while I was waiting I googled it and found someone on a forum years ago with the same problem and they'd tried everything including 4321 on the keypad, but that hadn't worked, so I tried that anyway and hey presto, worked for me.

When someone from the agents turned up a few minutes later he said there should be some box somewhere with a fuse just for the alarm that I could take out to disable it completely, but we looked everywhere and can't find it so fuck knows. Not going to be letting the electricity run out again though.

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: icehaven on May 13, 2021, 09:51:28 AM
although we obviously inherited some debt when we moved in as I put £30 on both and they immediately went down to £12 and £20, which was annoying but whatever.

If there's an outstanding debt these things usually take a cut of the top up to pay it off so it might not have cleared it with one top up. If you push the button on it, one of the screens should tell you any debt on it.

You're supposed to still tell the utility companies you have moved in so your name is on the account, in practise few people do if there isn't a debt (why would you?) but if you phone them they'll send you new keys/cards which will reset the debt and they'll try and chase up whoever left it, which isn't your problem.