Author Topic: The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin  (Read 4651 times)

The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin
« on: February 01, 2021, 06:20:01 PM »
Interesting article, and scientific not politicized for a refreshing change:

https://www.independentsciencenews.org/health/the-case-is-building-that-covid-19-had-a-lab-origin

If the 'laboratory escape hypothesis' proves to be true (e.g. adding ACE2 binding capability so it can easily enter human cells [no 'wild' coronavirus includes ACE2]), the ramifications will be huge. Hopefully not nuclear.

This whole 'gain-of-function' research is terrifying, frankly (i.e. deliberately making the virus as dangerous as possible). Expect more lab-derived pandemics in the future, if nothing is done. A brand new such lab in the US suggested a risk of 70% of a release in 50 years, and many of these labs are being built partly, I kid you not, for 'pandemic preparedness'.

"The US Department of Homeland Security (DHS) is currently constructing a new and expanded national Bio and Agro-defense facility in Manhattan, Kansas. DHS has estimated that the 50-year risk (defined as having an economic impact of $9-50 billion) of a release from its lab at 70%."

This is not just a Stephen King plot ('The Stand'), or the plot of countless novels indeed; it has happened many times before:

"In 1977 a laboratory in Russia (or possibly China), most likely while developing a flu vaccine, accidentally released the extinct H1N1 influenza virus (Nakajima et al., 1978). H1N1 went on to become a global pandemic virus. A large proportion of the global population became infected. In this case, deaths were few because the population aged over 20 yrs old had historic immunity to the virus. This episode is not widely known because only recently has this conclusion been formally acknowledged in the scientific literature and the virology community has been reluctant to discuss such incidents (Zimmer and Burke, 2009; Wertheim, 2010). Still, laboratory pathogen escapes leading to human and animal deaths (e.g. smallpox in Britain; equine encephalitis in South America) are common enough that they ought to be much better known (summarised in Furmanski, 2014). Only rarely have these broken out into actual pandemics on the scale of H1N1, which, incidentally, broke out again in 2009/2010 as “Swine flu” causing deaths estimated variously at 3,000 to 200,000 on that occasion (Duggal et al., 2016; Simonsen et al. 2013).

Many scientists have warned that experiments with PPPs [Potential Pandemic Pathogens], like the smallpox and Ebola and influenza viruses, are inherently dangerous and should be subject to strict limits and oversight (Lipsitch and Galvani, 2014; Klotz and Sylvester, 2014). Even in the limited case of SARS-like coronaviruses, since the quelling of the original SARS outbreak in 2003, there have been six documented SARS disease outbreaks originating from research laboratories, including four in China. These outbreaks caused 13 individual infections and one death (Furmanski, 2014). In response to such concerns the US banned certain classes of experiments, called gain of function (GOF) experiments, with PPPs in 2014, but the ban (actually a funding moratorium) was lifted in 2017."
« Last Edit: February 01, 2021, 06:36:44 PM by Pinball »

bgmnts

  • Depressed to the point of poisonous toxicity.
Re: The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2021, 06:28:31 PM »
Some mad scientist fucked a pangolin.

Re: The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2021, 06:29:34 PM »
Some mad scientist fucked a pangolin.
And sucked its juices.

Re: The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2021, 06:31:21 PM »
The COVID-19 Wuhan lab escape thesis

The essence of the lab escape theory is that Wuhan is the site of the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV), China’s first and only Biosafety Level 4 (BSL-4) facility. (BSL-4 is the highest pathogen security level). The WIV, which added a BSL-4 lab only in 2018, has been collecting large numbers of coronaviruses from bat samples ever since the original SARS outbreak of 2002-2003; including collecting more in 2016 (Hu, et al., 2017; Zhou et al., 2018).

Led by researcher Zheng-Li Shi, WIV scientists have also published experiments in which live bat coronaviruses were introduced into human cells (Hu et al., 2017). Moreover, according to an April 14 article in the Washington Post, US Embassy staff visited the WIV in 2018 and “had grave safety concerns” about biosecurity there. The WIV is just eight miles from the Huanan live animal market that was initially thought to be the site of origin of the COVID-19 pandemic.

Wuhan is also home to a lab called the Wuhan Centers for Disease Prevention and Control (WCDPC). It is a BSL-2 lab that is just 250 metres away from the Huanan market. Bat coronaviruses have in the past been kept at the Wuhan WCDPC lab.

Thus the lab escape theory is that researchers from one or both of these labs may have picked up a Sars-CoV-2-like bat coronavirus on one of their many collecting (aka ‘”virus surveillance”) trips. Or, alternatively, a virus they were studying, passaging, engineering, or otherwise manipulating, escaped.


Was Sars-CoV-2 created in a lab?

In his statement, Petrovsky goes on to describe the kind of experiment that, in principle, if done in a lab, would obtain the same result as the hypothesised natural zoonotic transfer–rapid adaptation of a bat coronavirus to a human host.

“Take a bat coronavirus that is not infectious to humans, and force its selection by culturing it with cells that express human ACE2 receptor, such cells having been created many years ago to culture SARS coronaviruses and you can force the bat virus to adapt to infect human cells via mutations in its spike protein, which would have the effect of increasing the strength of its binding to human ACE2, and inevitably reducing the strength of its binding to bat ACE2.

Viruses in prolonged culture will also develop other random mutations that do not affect its function. The result of these experiments is a virus that is highly virulent in humans but is sufficiently different that it no longer resembles the original bat virus. Because the mutations are acquired randomly by selection there is no signature of a human gene jockey, but this is clearly a virus still created by human intervention.”

In other words, Petrovsky believes that current experimental methods could have led to an altered virus that escaped.

Re: The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2021, 06:32:39 PM »
i for one always believe DHS reports about China.

Re: The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2021, 06:35:49 PM »
Was the WIV [Wuhan Institute of Virology] doing experiments that might release PPPs [Potential Pandemic Pathogens]?

Since 2004, shortly after the original SARS outbreak, researchers from the WIV have been collecting bat coronaviruses in an intensive search for SARS-like pathogens (Li et al., 2005). Since the original collecting trip, many more have been conducted (Ge et al., 2013; Ge et al., 2016; Hu et al., 2017; Zhou et al., 2018).

Petrovsky does not mention it but Zheng-Li Shi’s group at the WIV has already performed experiments very similar to those he describes, using those collected viruses. In 2013 the Shi lab reported isolating an infectious clone of a bat coronavirus that they called WIV-1 (Ge et al., 2013). WIV-1 was obtained by introducing a bat coronavirus into monkey cells, passaging it, and then testing its infectivity in human (HeLa) cell lines engineered to express the human ACE2 receptor (Ge et al., 2013).

In 2014, just before the US GOF research ban went into effect, Zheng-Li Shi of WIV co-authored a paper with the lab of Ralph Baric in North Carolina that performed GOF research on bat coronaviruses (Menachery et al., 2015).

In this particular set of experiments the researchers combined “the spike of bat coronavirus SHC014 in a mouse-adapted SARS-CoV backbone” into a single engineered live virus. The spike was supplied by the Shi lab. They put this bat/human/mouse virus into cultured human airway cells and also into live mice. The researchers observed “notable pathogenesis” in the infected mice (Menachery et al. 2015). The mouse-adapted part of this virus comes from a 2007 experiment in which the Baric lab created a virus called rMA15 through passaging (Roberts et al., 2007). This rMA15 was “highly virulent and lethal” to the mice. According to this paper, mice succumbed to “overwhelming viral infection”.

In 2017, again with the intent of identifying bat viruses with ACE2 binding capabilities, the Shi lab at WIV reported successfully infecting human (HeLa) cell lines engineered to express the human ACE2 receptor with four different bat coronaviruses. Two of these were lab-made recombinant (chimaeric) bat viruses. Both the wild and the recombinant viruses were briefly passaged in monkey cells (Hu et al., 2017).

Together, what these papers show is that: 1) The Shi lab collected numerous bat samples with an emphasis on collecting SARS-like coronavirus strains, 2) they cultured live viruses and conducted passaging experiments on them, 3) members of Zheng-Li Shi’s laboratory participated in GOF experiments carried out in North Carolina on bat coronaviruses, 4) the Shi laboratory produced recombinant bat coronaviruses and placed these in human cells and monkey cells. All these experiments were conducted in cells containing human or monkey ACE2 receptors.

The overarching purpose of such work was to see whether an enhanced pathogen could emerge from the wild by creating one in the lab. (For a very informative technical summary of WIV research into bat coronaviruses and that of their collaborators we recommend this post, written by biotech entrepreneur Yuri Deigin).

It also seems that the Shi lab at WIV intended to do more of such research. In 2013 and again in 2017 Zheng-Li Shi (with the assistance of a non-profit called the EcoHealth Alliance) obtained a grant from the US National Institutes of Health (NIH). The most recent such grant proposed that:

“host range (i.e. emergence potential) will be tested experimentally using reverse genetics, pseudovirus and receptor binding assays, and virus infection experiments across a range of cell cultures from different species and humanized mice” (NIH project #5R01Al110964-04).

It is hard to overemphasize that the central logic of this grant was to test the pandemic potential of SARS-related bat coronaviruses by making ones with pandemic potential, either through genetic engineering or passaging, or both.

Apart from descriptions in their publications we do not yet know exactly which viruses the WIV was experimenting with but it is certainly intriguing that numerous publications since Sars-CoV-2 first appeared have puzzled over the fact that the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein binds with exceptionally high affinity to the human ACE2 receptor “at least ten times more tightly” than the original SARS (Zhou et al., 2020; Wrapp et al., 2020; Wan et al., 2020; Walls et al., 2020; Letko et al., 2020).

This affinity is all the more remarkable because of the relative lack of fit in modelling studies of the SARS-CoV-2 spike to other species, including the postulated intermediates like snakes, civets and pangolins (Piplani et al., 2020). In this preprint these modellers concluded “This indicates that SARS-CoV-2 is a highly adapted human pathogen”.

Given the research and collection history of the Shi lab at WIV it is therefore entirely plausible that a bat SARS-like cornavirus ancestor of Sars-CoV-2 was trained up on the human ACE2 receptor by passaging it in cells expressing that receptor.

[On June 4 an excellent article in the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists went further. Pointing out what we had overlooked, that the Shi lab also amplified spike proteins of collected coronaviruses, which would make them available for GOF experimentation (Ge et al., 2016).]

Re: The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2021, 06:41:39 PM »
i for one always believe DHS reports about China.
This is not a conspiracy theory- just do a medical literature search. And the issue applies to all such labs, not just China of course.

If this outbreak had occurred near Porton Down, we would be suspicious, right? Why not Wuhan?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2021, 06:52:13 PM by Pinball »

Zetetic

  • I wasn't supposed to be around this long, so…
Re: The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2021, 07:18:44 PM »
I'm coming across a lot of references to "托马斯穆尔" in late 2019. Some sort of viral culture medium, or maybe a transmission vector? Seems to be translating to something about horses.

Re: The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2021, 07:36:47 PM »
I'm coming across a lot of references to "托马斯穆尔" in late 2019. Some sort of viral culture medium, or maybe a transmission vector? Seems to be translating to something about horses.
Tom sure gets around. Maybe he should be renamed Captain Trips? ;-)

Re: The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2021, 07:46:19 PM »
And on a lighter note, an interview on the Bill Maher show. Maybe these biologists are also DHS stooges? ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMGWLLDSA3c

"Evolutionary biologists Heather Heying and Bret Weinstein join Bill Maher to discuss the nature and possible origins of the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus". January 30th 2021.

chveik

  • OPEN THE PUBS BOYS
Re: The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2021, 07:49:15 PM »
And on a lighter note, an interview on the Bill Maher show. Maybe these biologists are also DHS stooges? ;-)

I dunno, but they're right wing conspiracy theorists

BlodwynPig

  • The Last Living Member of COVID-20
Re: The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2021, 07:58:56 PM »
I dunno, but they're right wing conspiracy theorists

Right wing? I've watched a few of their shows and they talk a lot of sense*

*approx 5% sense, 95% scared dad talk

Re: The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2021, 08:03:33 PM »
I dunno, but they're right wing conspiracy theorists
I don't think so. They have a popular science podcast is all. And Bill Maher is hardly right-wing...

Bernice

  • a turkey is a bad person (he/him)
Re: The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2021, 08:08:24 PM »
No idea about this but Bill Maher is fairly right wing.

Re: The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2021, 08:09:35 PM »
He is a hotch potch of views for sure, but at his core is very pro-Democrat, so clearly not right-wing, at least by US standards!

All Surrogate

  • That wo is me, pore child, for thee
Re: The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2021, 08:14:39 PM »
Interesting article, and scientific not politicized for a refreshing change:

https://www.independentsciencenews.org/health/the-case-is-building-that-covid-19-had-a-lab-origin

Come on, Pinball, you could at least do some cursory research on Independent Science News.

Re: The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2021, 08:25:11 PM »
It's one of the best digestible (for a lay audience) scientific articles I've found on this subject in terms of clarity, referencing and detail, and isn't political in content. Yes I do of course realise the site's biases (durr!), but sadly the fear of and pressure from a certain communist country has suppressed many scientists from investigating or writing about this topic. Ask the WHO. So whaddayougonnado? Best article I could find.

I think it's high time this issue was properly debated, but I agree that it shouldn't be in a political context. Hopefully now that Trump is gone, calmer political heads will prevail. As Bill Maher alluded to, the high tension politics from Trump immediately pushed this issue into nutter conspiracy theory territory, which has set back Covid origin investigation at least a full year. The origin of Covid (wild type vs lab escape) greatly affects the best strategies for dealing with it, and here we are a year later and we still don't know!

chveik

  • OPEN THE PUBS BOYS
Re: The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2021, 08:31:47 PM »
He is a hotch potch of views for sure, but at his core is very pro-Democrat, so clearly not right-wing, at least by US standards!

he's been going on quite a lot about the 'chinese virus".

I don't think so. They have a popular science podcast is all. And Bill Maher is hardly right-wing...

I think cancel culture's gone made is their main problem

chveik

  • OPEN THE PUBS BOYS
Re: The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2021, 08:32:42 PM »
Right wing? I've watched a few of their shows and they talk a lot of sense*

*approx 5% sense, 95% scared dad talk

95% is good enough for me

Re: The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2021, 08:36:41 PM »
he's been going on quite a lot about the 'chinese virus".
So what? Ebola was named after the river where it was first found. Ditto many other viruses.

The Chinese government lobbied hard to not have Wuhan in the name, but it should be called the Wuhan virus by usual geographic nomenclature. It's a great illustration of the politicization and pressure applied by the CCP, though, citing sinophobia to stifle debate. And it worked, because instead of listening to the points raised by Maher, you are implying he is a racist.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2021, 08:52:23 PM by Pinball »

Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse

  • Living proof of everything wrong with the world
Re: The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2021, 08:53:37 PM »
can't wait for whale rabies and simian flu

oh btw Bill Maher is the kind of man who would commission a painting of himself pissing into Jesus Christ's dead eye sockets, hang it on his wall, and have a dinner party to show it off in the hope of offending someone

Cuellar

  • I'm over here
Re: The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2021, 09:42:39 PM »
Thus the lab escape theory is that researchers from one or both of these labs may have picked up a Sars-CoV-2-like bat coronavirus on one of their many collecting (aka ‘”virus surveillance”) trips. Or, alternatively, a virus they were studying, passaging, engineering, or otherwise manipulating, escaped.

Right so one half of the 'lab escape theory' is that it didn't escape from a lab.

Re: The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2021, 10:40:54 PM »
There was an article about the possibility of this last month.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/coronavirus-lab-escape-theory.html

(I have no commitment to the idea btw, it was just re-tweeted by someone on twitter so I read through. I'm no scientist and wouldn't pretend to have a clue about any of this stuff.)

Re: The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2021, 11:00:19 PM »
lmao didn’t even realize Bret Weinstein was involved, c’mon man

Re: The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2021, 11:05:20 PM »
Is he bad? (genuine question, no idea who he is)

Re: The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2021, 11:07:23 PM »
crank college prof with a podcast. obsessed with cancel culture (not a real thing).

this is genuinely the first time i’ve seen his name come up where he wasn’t being mocked or discredited.

Re: The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2021, 11:54:23 PM »
And it worked, because instead of listening to the points raised by Maher, you are implying he is a racist.

https://facebook.com/watch/?v=1691431604305718&_rdr#!/story.php?story_fbid=1691431604305718&id=139104349474671&m_entstream_source=video_home&player_suborigin=entry_point&player_format=permalink

Bill Maher is absolutely a racist cunt and everything he says about anything should be discounted and rejected.

Re: The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2021, 12:37:18 AM »
Yeah he apologized for that some years ago, and his black friends defended him, as did his black partner. Do you have black friends and a black girlfriend?

It was a fucking joke, albeit bad taste. Maher is no racist and I like him.

Fucking hell. All you get here is identity politics and cancel culture. Hardly any data discussion.

So, the data, was denkst du?

Captain Z

  • CABBALD
Re: The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2021, 12:51:08 AM »
I get the impression you'd love this to be true, Pinball.

Re: The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2021, 01:13:24 AM »
the data says that bill maher is a racist cunt, soz pinny

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