Cryptocurrency Thread

[Rizla]

Of course I put my money on NEAR instead, which hasn't taken off in quite the same manner, we live in hope though.

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20210512005215/en/Aurora-Launches-on-NEAR-Protocol-Providing-Ethereum-Layer-2-Experience



whew!

[Jasha]

Do any of these actually pay a dividend or is it all on a spin of the wheel?

[Better Midlands]

Do any of these actually pay a dividend or is it all on a spin of the wheel?

You can stake your coins for about 5-25% APR

https://www.binance.com/en/pos

I think USDC (which is tethered to $USD so doesn't fluctuate) returns about 6% APR.

[oy vey]

Ok, this was what I was trying to point out earlier. Yes bitcoin has created digital scarcity, and that's cool and valuable. Companies can use that to create services that create value, it's all good.

Grand, yeah, yep...

None of which has any bearing on investing in bitcoin or the value of bitcoin.

I don't agree, if we're clear on what we mean by investing. I'll argue why later...

Firstly, Bitcoin is a specific case and we have to be careful about making sweeping statements about crypto and following with "for example in Bitcoin..." then making another sweeping statement about crypto and following with "for example with Ethereum..." or worse "...Doge..." These are very different beasts doing different things. I just want to put that out there.

On Bitcoin, it's still quite young even for 12 years, like early TCP/IP in some ways. I won't deny there's a lot of trading, manipulation, etc. like any market, but it is also possible to invest in it in a way that's as mature a choice as any start-up that looks unique and useful as you admit it is. We don't really know what Bitcoin will look like in another 12 years but I believe it will be here in some form. There are thousands of developers working on it. It's like Linux - it will never fuck off. It has too much promise.

My point is that investment (long term), rather than trading (short-term), is a better approach that focuses on the fact that this is tech that's becoming more intricate by the day. There will be plenty of ups and downs in the short term, and lots of sore bottoms, no question. But if you can wait out 3-5 years on say 5-10 of the best looking projects - if 8 fail, you'll still be good on the 2 that sky rocket (and subsequently stabilize and become boring from a crypto-trader's perspective - that's a good thing!).

The relationship probably goes the other way - if people stopped speculating on bitcoin the price would stabilize which would enable more services and value to be created.

Very true. Retail investors (no offense reader) are the worst quality of investor. Completely emotional, attention-deficit-disorder, looking for a quick buck, don't give a fuck about the tech, etc. If we had less of that, there would be less volatility. But every new commodity was volatile at the beginning. When you start up an engine, it splutters. Eventually the best cryptos will stabilize and become boring as fuck for quick gains. That's the prize. Can you ride the rollercoasters to that stage?

Speculating on the price of bitcoin is a zero sum game.

If the tech is here to stay and with thousands of coders beavering away like fuck, I don't think so. What's driving the value is what's at the core - digital scarcity - which you admit has value. Growing value = non-zero. Metcalfe's law = non-zero. The more people use a communal technology, the more valuable it gets. And the more people build other cool things on top of that network, it gets even better. That's why I mentioned infrastructure projects earlier. By the way, Internet was shite when it was only two computers. It's pretty useful now though.

The only money that goes into it comes from other speculators. To make money out of it other people have to lose money.

Not true, there are lovers and long-term investors, and people using it as another store of value. My argument is they will win out because of their focus on the tech. I'll finish with this - over the past 1, 3, 5, 10 years Bitcoin has kicked the living shit out of most other investments for gains if you stay in it long enough. Non-zero? Agreed, unless you're long term.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

Fellas.

Lock KLP -> KLP goes up in price -> You get Neatcoin for locking -> You get all the KLP back.

[Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle]

On Bitcoin, it's still quite young even for 12 years, like early TCP/IP in some ways.

Can you explain in what ways Bitcoin is like TCP/IP?  Im not seeing the similarities. 

[Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle]

I just bought 500 quids worth of Eth and DOGE.  Let the collapse begin!

[MojoJojo]

Any one else notice how oy vey has dropped into MLM speak?

[C_Larence]

I just bought 500 quids worth of Eth and DOGE.  Let the collapse begin!

lol

[oy vey]

Any one else notice how oy vey has dropped into MLM speak?

Why so scared of intelligent debate?

[JaDanketies]

I never see Monero getting mentioned itt. This is the currency of the online black market. It's gone up loads in value since I first heard of it. There's a dip in bitcoin atm so it might be a good idea to buy some and exchange for XMR to get on the Monero train. choo choo

[Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle]

lol

Ha,  I knew it. 

[Uncle TechTip]

Stay away for the moment because Elon Musk farted a tweet and it's sent the market into meltdown.

These are the times I'm glad i don't do these investments, i have things to do today but I'd be glued to the exchanges instead.

[Poisson Du Jour]

I would say now is the time to buy, but we'll see who's right in a month or two.

[Nice Relaxing Poo]

I'm jealous of those that got in early but no fucking way would I touch crypto if was an investor. I'd be writing this out in Dutch on a parchment and substituting tulips for crypto if this was a 1630s Dutch comedy forum.

[Gurke and Hare]

Bitcoin making wild gains and falls according to Elon Musk's whims definitely demonstrates what a sound and sensible investment it is.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Bitcoin making wild gains and falls according to Elon Musk's whims definitely demonstrates what a sound and sensible investment it is.

No-one wanting to make a sound and sensible investment would be bothered by week by week changes anyway or guffs from Musk. That's the retail portion of Bitcoin reacting. The sensible would get in, leave it, see how it's doing every quarter.

Bitcoin is volatile, but in the context of the long term direction of travel no-one who got in over 5 years ago and held their stock has lost money, on the contrary, they have made a sound and sensible decision. They will have to make some more decisions soon.

[MojoJojo]

Bitcoin is volatile, but in the context of the long term direction of travel no-one who got in over 5 years ago and held their stock has lost money, on the contrary, they have made a sound and sensible decision. They will have to make some more decisions soon.

They made money, I don't think "sound and sensible decision" is accurate. Unless you think lottery winners are geniuses.

[Gurke and Hare]

To be fair, all the investment experts say that past performance is a guarantee of future performance don't they?

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

They made money, I don't think "sound and sensible decision" is accurate. Unless you think lottery winners are geniuses.

It isn't a lottery though is it, it isn't pure guesswork. Bitcoin has had its card marked for a long time and anyone who saw what was happening with trading apps could have predicted Bitcoin would particularly stand to benefit, even more so up to this point in its development.

As I say, if you make an investment fully prepared to see out a long period of time and do so on the basis of indicators that fundamentally show it has a good prospect for growth you haven't played the lottery, you've done what ordinary investors do.

To be fair, all the investment experts say that past performance is a guarantee of future performance don't they?

You are citing its past volatility when expressing your own opinion on it, so you can't have it both ways.

[Nice Relaxing Poo]

I read "They made money" as "They got in early on what looks likely to be the biggest inadvertent Ponzi scheme ever".


I wonder how many Teslas were bought using BTC once Musk started accepting it as payment? My guess is absolutely none. Who in their right mind would spend a currency that in the course of an hour could be worth 20% more and why would you accept a payment that in the same period of time could have plummeted just because some ego maniac CEO tweeted about it?

At least the tulips were nice to look at for a while.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

I read "They made money" as "They got in early on what looks likely to be the biggest inadvertent Ponzi scheme ever".

... Unlike regular businesses which are never run crookedly leading to poor financial performance and plunging share price.

[Nice Relaxing Poo]

... Unlike regular businesses which are never run crookedly leading to poor financial performance and plunging share price.

Well that just totally cuts my observation then. I'll retract it immediately.

[MojoJojo]

It isn't a lottery though is it, it isn't pure guesswork. Bitcoin has had its card marked for a long time and anyone who saw what was happening with trading apps could have predicted Bitcoin would particularly stand to benefit, even more so up to this point in its development.

There was risk involved though - if it was clear cut it was going to go up, it would have gone up a lot faster as everyone would jump in. It could have been banned or a vulnerability discovered - there were risks involved.

So I guess the point is the sensible thing to do is not to buy or not buy crypto, but to balance out any investment in a way to minimise risks. Your description of it makes it sounds like the guy who took out a second mortgage and used it all to buy bitcoin five years ago was the most "sound and sensible" person of all.

[C_Larence]

I wonder how many Teslas were bought using BTC once Musk started accepting it as payment? My guess is absolutely none.

Not true, I saw one guy posting on reddit that he'd bought one with bitcoin and that the money left his wallet but there was no proof of transaction (because of blockchain or whatever) and customer service wouldn't help him.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

There was risk involved though - if it was clear cut it was going to go up, it would have gone up a lot faster as everyone would jump in. It could have been banned or a vulnerability discovered - there were risks involved.

So I guess the point is the sensible thing to do is not to buy or not buy crypto, but to balance out any investment in a way to minimise risks. Your description of it makes it sounds like the guy who took out a second mortgage and used it all to buy bitcoin five years ago was the most "sound and sensible" person of all.

But that is precisely what did happen several times over, hardly novel to Bitcoin or crypto either.

I am not sure why this conversation has to be held in absolutes. First you characterised Bitcoin investment as a lottery when it definitely has not been (or even been similar to), then point out there is risk involved as though someone out there reading isn't already clearly aware of that. It's unclear how that is helpful, it swings from inaccurate to quite patronising.

In response, the same applies as per my post a few posts up. It has delivered for investors in the long run. 5-10 years is a pretty long hold. Like nearly all exciting emerging potential investments has a lot of volatility accompanying it as the long term investors try to work out whether it will stick, and the retail investors create a lot of signal interference trying to make a quick buck or rescue their losses. It is clearly riskier than most forms of investment nevertheless, but that's not being contested. Why anything I've posted comes across as me saying normal people should have been taking out another mortgage to fund investing in it, I have no idea.

Sound and sensible wasn't my phrase either, it was Gurke And Hare's. The fact is that as a medium term investment it has delivered, stripping out all the peaks and troughs, the long term direction of travel, which is what more conservative investors look for, has been steady, each trough bottoming out way above the last one. It isn't random, and the reasons that has taken place are similar to those given by tipsters when they recommend stocks and shares to people.

No doubt some brainbox will be on show in a month or two when it all crashes trying to spin this as me and others saying it was going to go up forever.  In a vain effort to prepare, I will use this opportunity to state I think Bitcoin is at a bit of a crossroads at the minute, hence my first reply saying the people making sound sensible decision may have another to make soon.

[Gurke and Hare]

First you characterised Bitcoin investment as a lottery when it definitely has not been

If you won the lottery, that doesn't mean it wasn't a lottery. You keep citing things that have happened as proof that it was inevitable they would happen. And I'm not citing the volatility that has happened as an indicator of risk, I'm citing the volatility that is constantly happening.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

I haven't said anything about or close to inevitability. You are joining Mojo in the absolutist terminology. I can't really do anything if you're both determined to take things from milder statements as being extreme ones.

[peanutbutter]

Do any of these actually pay a dividend or is it all on a spin of the wheel?

iirc a lot of tech stocks dont pay dividends, with the focus being on reinvesting to pump up the value instead.




Why's Cardano gone up again? I was banking on a crash tbh... =/

[JaDanketies]

do you mean to tell me that all investments are a gamble and there's no certainty in stocks or bitcoin? colour me surprised.

Did ya know in May 2016, £1 was worth $1.45, and then in March 2020 it was worth $1.16? Turns out not investing is also a gamble.

Maybe the value of all currency is just smoke and mirrors. Don't tell anyone though, or my savings will be worthless.