Stewart Lee and Michael Cumming's King Rocker - tonight

[Mobbd]

But for the sake of discussion (controversy creates conversation) I will go on:

Re "deconstruction" - Lee papers over the cracks with a meta-joke about "hey maybe we'll find that old Chippington footage - oh look, we have!" There are other examples of him doing this in the film, such as him mentioning that he is searching for an "emotional through line" and giving the impression that it wouldn't really bother him should he not find one.

I think Lee could have improved his contributions to the film by wearing his enthusiasm on his sleeve more. He should have opened the documentary with "I will never forget the Birmingham of 1974" (or whenever the statue was standing) "...and I will never forget The Nightingales, or the Barbarella" [cue appropriate clips] "Who are the Nightingales, I hear you ask?..."  etc. etc. Just saying how he feels about it, so that even if we don't agree with him we can understand what it meant to him and fellow fans.

When I "ascribe motive" to him, I do it based on the fact that he neglects to do these sorts of conventional things that could connect to a larger audience, and - to state the obvious - after following someone's career for some time you get a sense (however limited) of the kind of person they are and why they do things.

Yes, you do go on. But just so you know, this isn't controversy. It's drivel.

[Retinend]

Since you loved the film, you're angry at me for not loving it.

[bgmnts]

Why would Lee want to appeal to a larger audience?

[Retinend]

Why would Lee want to appeal to a larger audience?

For the sake of promoting the band's music, for example.

[Mobbd]

Since you loved the film, you're angry at me for not loving it.

I didn't love it. I thought it was good and worthwhile. And I'm not angry. Other than that, you're spot on.

You should read over your posts though. Have a little think.

[Retinend]

Well they make sense to me. I presume they will make sense to other people too.

[markburgle]

He should have opened the documentary with "I will never forget the Birmingham of 1974" (or whenever the statue was standing) "...and I will never forget The Nightingales, or the Barbarella" [cue appropriate clips] "Who are the Nightingales, I hear you ask?..."  etc. etc.

"Can Lee not just make a more depressingly formulaic and boring documentary please?" is all I'm hearing there. By the same token it really lacked Dave Grohl and a member of the Chilli Peppers informing us that the Nightingales were "fuckin gods, man"

[Egyptian Feast]

Don't forget the Bono cameo.

[phantom_power]

Whither Stuart Maconie?

[thelittlemango]

"Can Lee not just make a more depressingly formulaic and boring documentary please?" is all I'm hearing there. By the same token it really lacked Dave Grohl and a member of the Chilli Peppers informing us that the Nightingales were "fuckin gods, man"

This kind of thing always makes me think of those discussions in this forum where people say "the punchline/ending would have been much better if they did this..." before proceeding to write some utter shit that makes you cringe.

[wrec]

Just watched this (after much wrangling with Now tv) and hugely enjoyed it - a really good application of Lee's talents and instincts. Wasn't familiar with the band's music (I did like most of what I heard so will investigate further - haven't seen it mentioned but must have been an influence on Half Man Half Biscuit?) but that's definitely not a requirement. I thought the way it was framed with the statue stuff really worked, also how that was gently undercut. I find music documentaries lately tend to be so formulaic to the point of being unwatchable - even a decent one like the XTC one was marred by predictable, obligatory talking heads. Helped that most of the people interviewed were non-celeb participants / witnesses, and the appearances by Skinner and Taylor were pertinent rather than just being celeb endorsements (thought Asquith was a lark too). Didn't overstate the "they were unique, man" aspect too much though Paul Morley's comment about them not playing the game was somewhat contradicted by the various bids for success. And what's the story with the supposedly banned video? That wasn't explained.

The mention of Fun-Da-Mental's Aki Nawaz having been in the Southern Death Cult struck a chord. In the late 90s I had to herd a bunch of inner city Dublin kids into a DJ workshop by him and his bandmate. Got to chat with him and mentioned I liked the SDC, but he seemed profoundly embarrassed about his goth past.

[Jockice]

Didn't overstate the "they were unique, man" aspect too much though Paul Morley's comment about them not playing the game was somewhat contradicted by the various bids for success.

Yeah, I found that pretty strange too. You don't just sign to a major label and make a decentish although a lot blander than your previous stuff LP by accident.

[Mobbd]

Yeah, I found that pretty strange too. You don't just sign to a major label and make a decentish although a lot blander than your previous stuff LP by accident.

All that's strange about it is that Paul M's subjective assessment was wrong there. Though to be honest, he was probably just saying what he thought was required of him. In any event, I liked that the sources for the film were a bit contradictory.

[dissolute ocelot]

"Can Lee not just make a more depressingly formulaic and boring documentary please?" is all I'm hearing there. By the same token it really lacked Dave Grohl and a member of the Chilli Peppers informing us that the Nightingales were "fuckin gods, man"

Lee was definitely trying to make something slightly different than the traditional music documentary, not very different, but not exactly the same. I'm sure we've all seen a lot of these: Nina Simone, The Slits, TV Smith, Rosetta Tharpe, The Pixies[nb]No documentary that isn't LoudQUIETloud features a bandmember turning to stage magic, which is to the detriment of King Rocker and every other film.[/nb], Kathleen Hanna, even Bros, and they all have basically the same emotionally manipulative structure: early success, decline/split/drugs/poverty/menial employment, and some kind of comeback (even if it's posthumous, and even if it's "and then he was so famous we made a documentary about him").

Lee was at least trying to avoid some of the cliches. He was trying to find different ways to explain the band and what it meant to him and other fans, and I don't think he exactly succeeded, in that I'm still not terribly sure why the Nightingales were so great or meant so much to Lee. But better that than a documentary that hits all the cliched beats and manipulates your emotions via a parade of gushing talking heads and sad-music-heroin-montages.

It's certainly pointless doing a documentary about a band (or artist, author, filmmaker, etc) without some attempt to explain why they were good. But often this quality isn't communicated by the limited film and video footage available and requires subjective testimony. In King Rocker, instead of getting the editor of NME and Q talking about past greatness, we get Lee, a gorilla, and a bunch of other oddities.

Obviously if you hate Lee, it's not for you, but really you should be able to work that out without wasting 2 hours of your time.

[wrec]

All that's strange about it is that Paul M's subjective assessment was wrong there. Though to be honest, he was probably just saying what he thought was required of him. In any event, I liked that the sources for the film were a bit contradictory.

The contradictariness was definitely a theme (and the film benefitted from differing perspectives and questionable reliability of individual accounts), also nuance could have been lost in editing. I see what he meant about The Fall occasionally "playing the game" for example but it seems to me Lloyd compromised his work in a way MES didn't. Then again Morley tends to be employed as a purveyor of thoughtful but not necessarily accurate takes.

[Jockice]

Obviously if you hate Lee, it's not for you, but really you should be able to work that out without wasting 2 hours of your time.

I have literally no opinion of Lee. Watched bits of Fist Of Fun back in the day (although I can't remember any of it. I was approaching my 30s by then so already thought of myself as too old for its target audience. I thought they'd just been put together in a bid to find a new Newman and Baddiel. Is that right? I genuinely don't know), have seen the odd bit of his more recent stand-up on TV (not bad) and tried reading his Observer columns but thought they were a bit try-hard. So for me he was more of a mystery than Robert Lloyd, whose musical career I have followed. Albeit at a distance since our unfortunate meeting.

I thought Lee and Lloyd both came across quite well. But whether I watch anything else with the former in depends on what the subject is and if I can be arsed.

[Mobbd]

I thought they'd just been put together in a bid to find a new Newman and Baddiel. Is that right?

They're generally seen as contemporaries of Newman and Baddiel, though I think N&B were out of the gate first. I wouldn't be surprised if Avalon saw it at least somewhat in those terms but so far as I know, Lee met Herring at a party (Herring pogoing on his own) after hearing about his interest in comedy and then they formed a troupe called The 7 Raymonds from which L&H emerged pretty naturally.

[Jockice]

They're generally seen as contemporaries of Newman and Baddiel, though I think N&B were out of the gate first. I wouldn't be surprised if Avalon saw it at least somewhat in those terms but so far as I know, Lee met Herring at a party (Herring pogoing on his own) after hearing about his interest in comedy and then they formed a troupe called The 7 Raymonds from which L&H emerged pretty naturally.

Cheers. I didn't know that at all.

[non capisco]

Stew had of course already seen and was presumably impressed by Rich's no doubt dynamite routine 'My Penis Can Sing' before they met.

[Mobbd]

'My Penis Can Sing'

(yes it can, it really can!)

[Ignatius_S]

One of the live shows that was filmed for the documentary is being live-streamed tomorrow.

While making King Rocker, Stewart Lee opened for a handful of Nightingales shows across Great Britain, and the film's director Michael Cumming filmed much of them. The best of these shows was the band's appearance at London's Moth Club, and Michael brilliantly captured the entire experience. 

Rather than ending up a sort of exposé on the band, "King Rocker" focused much of its attention on 'Gales leader Robert Lloyd . . . which meant that precious little of this amazing film footage made it into the film.  That said, Michael saw the value of the concert as a film in its own right and graciously edited the footage he had from multiple camera operators into a dazzling film of its own.  Stewart's set is included, too - by this point in the tour, his routine had become oddly self-referential, no doubt in part to the number of people who journeyed from date to date and had seen it on previous evenings - it's a more 'inside' take on Stewart's act, and worthy viewing in itself, but it's The Nightingales who own the show. In a packed club full adoring fans, the band runs through much of its then-new album, Perish The Thought, and a number of fan favourites.

Like nearly everyone else, The Nightingales haven't been able to play a show in the past year - and in their case it's actually been two years since they've played - and although they still have a tour this autumn, it's their fourth attempt at it!

Fire Films, who founded King Rocker, have graciously allowed for this footage to be released as a one-time streaming event - with the lion's share going to the band directly.  You can buy tickets and catch it tomorrow or tomorrow night (depending on where you are) by following the link below.

Ticket link: https://noonchorus.com/the-nightingales/ - times are in Pacific and Eastern Times; in the UK, it's 8pm.

[Brundle-Fly]

Stew's recent Soho radio show.1981-1991. Oscillations R.I.P.

https://www.mixcloud.com/sohoradio/stewart-lees-live-life-10032021/

[Mobbd]

Stew's recent Soho radio show.1981-1991. Oscillations R.I.P.

https://www.mixcloud.com/sohoradio/stewart-lees-live-life-10032021/

Nice one. Thank you. (Looking forward to The Wombles).

[Sebastian Cobb]

One of the live shows that was filmed for the documentary is being live-streamed tomorrow.

Ticket link: https://noonchorus.com/the-nightingales/ - times are in Pacific and Eastern Times; in the UK, it's 8pm.

I bought a ticket for this then got chatting to a mate on the internet and forgot like a twat.

[Sebastian Cobb]

Oh sweet there's watch again and also youtube-dl can grab the video if you find the player url.

[Ignatius_S]

I bought a ticket for this then got chatting to a mate on the internet and forgot like a twat.

Ha, easily done!

I was going to post that there is watch again and that on the site, there was a message saying it was available until 14 March (but I offer no guarantees!) if anyone missed it.

[Pranet]

Is this the thread to post Stewart Lee's new beard? Or does it deserve its own thread?

[turnstyle]

Is this the thread to post Stewart Lee's new beard? Or does it deserve its own thread?

Pretty sure he's now devoting his entire life to expanding the range of people that can be included in the '...has let himself go' gag through his ever changing appearance. It's like performance art.

[Phil_A]

The giant from the Gentle Giant album covers has let himself go.

[Captain Z]

Big Ears has let himself go.