Author Topic: Vitamin D  (Read 2454 times)

Shoulders?-Stomach!

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Vitamin D
« on: February 15, 2021, 12:33:45 PM »
https://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2021-02-15/lives-lost-covid-vitamin-d/

I noticed Jonathan Cook, a man with some fairly reliable left leaning analysis on Middle East politics (but not so much on immunology etc) has put a few articles and posts out about using Vitamin D to help treat Covid.

He makes what appear to be some interesting points. I personally have no agenda to push here, so just wondered what those more in the know thought about this assessment and the studies he is referencing.

Fambo Number Mive

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Re: Vitamin D
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2021, 12:45:09 PM »
I've been taking Vitamin D supplements since December and trying to get out for a daily walk when it is sunny. I'm also having Ready Brek each day. I don't know what to think about the studies but it seems to make sense to have as good an immune system as possible.

I've also stopped drinking Coke and am trying to eat more fruit and vegetables each day (not hitting 5 a day, more like 3 a day but it's better than before).

Re: Vitamin D
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2021, 12:46:03 PM »
I don't have any expertise. But I've been taking vitamin D on the off chance since this started, since it is cheap and unlikely to do any harm, so why not.

However I think it is a stretch to go from thinking vitamin D might help your body fight off covid to where he seems to go, which is that we wouldn't have needed any lockdowns or bothered to research into vaccines if we were all on large doses of Vitamin D.

Re: Vitamin D
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2021, 12:46:35 PM »
Quote
The panel agreed that there was little evidence for using vitamin D supplements to prevent or treat COVID‑19. However, they agreed that vitamin D use is well established for maintaining bone and muscle health. They expressed concerns that not everyone is aware of, or is following, UK government advice on taking a vitamin D supplement, so wanted to include a recommendation to emphasise the existing guidance. They stressed that everyone should consider taking a supplement containing 10 micrograms (400 units) of vitamin D daily between October and early March, when people in the UK do not make enough vitamin D from sunlight. They also stressed that this was particularly important during the COVID‑19 pandemic, when people may have been indoors more than usual over the spring and summer.

https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng187

seepage

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Re: Vitamin D
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2021, 12:49:08 PM »
Probably David Davis' endorsement has put people right off.

Zetetic

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Re: Vitamin D
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2021, 12:51:45 PM »
The "current, dominant, mechanistic view of medical science – one that too often disregards the natural world or even holds it in contempt" has been, uh, telling British people to take Vitamin D in the autumn and winter for years.[1]

I saw plenty of doctors on '#MedTwitter' and other social media pushing Vitamin D near the start of the pandemic - while still being clear that this on the basis that risk was minimal rather than clear evidence of strong COVID-specific benefits - and since then with no push back.

The NHS.UK[2] page echoes the NICE guidance quoted by steveh:
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vitamins-and-minerals/vitamin-d/

 1. Presumably on the basis of a fairly mechanistic view of how sunlight, vitamin D bioproduction and so on works, the bastards.
 2. Obligatory "Fuck off you English domain-squatting shits" comments.

Zetetic

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Re: Vitamin D
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2021, 12:54:32 PM »
I'm also having Ready Brek each day
It's also worth considering the mental health consequences of some interventions.

I wonder if my frozen pain-au-chocolat are Vitamin B-fortified…

Zetetic

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Re: Vitamin D
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2021, 01:02:02 PM »
It's a reasonable question why fortification of foods isn't more widespread. M&S made a big thing of fortifying all their baked stuff a few years back.

Re: Vitamin D
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2021, 01:03:22 PM »
With the lack of sunshine in the UK I'd generally try to get Vitamin D in some form anyway, from things like fish and eggs if not from supplements.

Re: Vitamin D
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2021, 03:58:15 PM »
Aren't a fairly large proportion of people deficient in Vit D anyway? That's the basis for why I've been taking it anyway, since long before COVID.

Blue Jam

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Re: Vitamin D
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2021, 04:07:26 PM »
I don't have any expertise. But I've been taking vitamin D on the off chance since this started, since it is cheap and unlikely to do any harm, so why not.

It's a fat soluble vitamin so taking too much can be harmful, but if you're on the cheap stuff from pharmacies as opposed to the high dose prescription-only stuff you've got nothing to worry about.

Started taking vitamin D a couple of weeks ago here. As a pasty bastard I'm a major sun-dodger so it'll probably do me some good. Saw a lot of people recommending it on here so thanks in advance.

Re: Vitamin D
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2021, 04:09:11 PM »
There was some talk about free deliveries of Vitamin D to vulnerable people beginning in January (so after the darkest part of the year has passed). Has that happened (he asked, fully expecting the answer no)?



« Last Edit: February 15, 2021, 04:23:53 PM by Harry Badger »

Re: Vitamin D
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2021, 04:13:46 PM »
Aren't a fairly large proportion of people deficient in Vit D anyway? That's the basis for why I've been taking it anyway, since long before COVID.

Yeah and it gets worse for people with darker skin, as darker skin is adapted better for sunny climates with longer daylight hours. This was one of the explanations touted for the higher COVID death rates among BAME people in the UK earlier in the year. I don't know if that was ever more than a theory though.

I've been taking vitamin D anyway. Like with the mask-wearing initially, there may not be data to show it helps, but there's a good, logical argument for why people should be doing it.



Blue Jam

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Re: Vitamin D
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2021, 04:22:00 PM »
Yeah and it gets worse for people with darker skin, as darker skin is adapted better for sunny climates with longer daylight hours. This was one of the explanations touted for the higher COVID death rates among BAME people in the UK earlier in the year. I don't know if that was ever more than a theory though.

Interesting. I assumed darker-skinned people were less likely to be vitamin D-deficient as they're less likely to cover themselves in SPF 50 like I do. Of course that makes sense.

Apart from allowing you to absorb more calcium where you need it, are there any other noticable effects of vitamin D supplementaion? Do people feel mentally and physically better? I guess I should know this but I don't.

Re: Vitamin D
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2021, 04:33:39 PM »
I'd seen other people I know recommend taking Vitamin D, and I figured it might be a good idea in the midst of winter under lockdown. So if true that it helps even a little bit that's good to know.

Blue Jam

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Re: Vitamin D
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2021, 04:47:50 PM »
It's also just a good thing for women to do, might help to prevent osteoporosis after the menopause, so for me it would probably be a good idea to keep taking it even after lockdown ends.

Re: Vitamin D
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2021, 05:17:11 PM »
Interesting. I assumed darker-skinned people were less likely to be vitamin D-deficient as they're less likely to cover themselves in SPF 50 like I do. Of course that makes sense.

Apart from allowing you to absorb more calcium where you need it, are there any other noticable effects of vitamin D supplementaion? Do people feel mentally and physically better? I guess I should know this but I don't.

Melanin in dark skin absorbs a lot of the UV radiation from the sun, that's good for protecting against skin cancer but a black person could require up to 5x longer in the sun to get the same amount of vitamin D as a white person.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3356951/

According to that, 50% of the world's population is vitamin D deficient, which is even more than I would have expected.

I don't think you would notice any benefit from vitamin D supplementation unless you already had rickets or something, it's more about preventing various illnesses/conditions and strengthening the immune system. I'm pretty sure there was a strong correlation between deaths/serious illness from COVID-19 and vitamin D deficiency, but other factors would probably also have played a role.

Re: Vitamin D
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2021, 10:16:46 PM »
I’d already read a few things saying that low vitamin D levels were associated with respiratory tract illnesses, and when a colleague of mine unexpectedly became extremely ill with pneumonia in February last year* and she was found to have extremely low vitamins D levels, it increased my resolve to ensure I supplemented myself and my family.

The prevalence of Covid in  darker skinned people and people who don’t go outside much only strengthened this resolve.

I mentioned this in an unhelpfully cryptic way a long time ago - https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,77608.msg4125408.html#msg4125408

*She was never tested for Covid because she hadn’t been to China!

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Re: Vitamin D
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2021, 11:17:26 PM »
My mate is currently living in Estonia and he says everybody takes it over there.

bgmnts

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Re: Vitamin D
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2021, 11:27:09 PM »
D's are good! D's are good!
Vitamin D's are good!

Shoulders?-Stomach!

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Re: Vitamin D
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2021, 11:29:44 PM »
My mate is currently living in Estonia and he says everybody takes it over there.

You make it sound so risqué

Captain Z

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Re: Vitamin D
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2021, 12:59:52 AM »
Edit: how did I miss the post literally 2 above this.

Cuntbeaks

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Re: Vitamin D
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2021, 01:01:48 AM »
You make it sound so risqué

Start with a half, see how ye get on.

Re: Vitamin D
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2021, 09:30:15 AM »
It's a reasonable question why fortification of foods isn't more widespread. M&S made a big thing of fortifying all their baked stuff a few years back.
Flour is fortified with some B vitamins and iron, vegan milk is generally fortified (unless it is ORGANIC), salt has iodine (possibly excluding ORGANIC HIMALAYAN what the sherpas eat), and breakfast cereals. But we don't even have fluoride in the water. It's tricky to do it in a way that works for everyone, but sometimes there's no excuse.

Re: Vitamin D
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2021, 09:47:59 AM »
A blood test found I was deficient in Vitamin D and I got a supplement. The packaging says to take one tablet a fortnight but the printed label tells me to take it twice a week. I was slightly concerned this was a fuck-up on the pharmacy's part but I've been taking it twice a week.

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Re: Vitamin D
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2021, 10:54:58 AM »
The "current, dominant, mechanistic view of medical science – one that too often disregards the natural world or even holds it in contempt" has been, uh, telling British people to take Vitamin D in the autumn and winter for years.[1]

I saw plenty of doctors on '#MedTwitter' and other social media pushing Vitamin D near the start of the pandemic - while still being clear that this on the basis that risk was minimal rather than clear evidence of strong COVID-specific benefits - and since then with no push back.

The NHS.UK[2] page echoes the NICE guidance quoted by steveh:
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vitamins-and-minerals/vitamin-d/
 1. Presumably on the basis of a fairly mechanistic view of how sunlight, vitamin D bioproduction and so on works, the bastards.
 2. Obligatory "Fuck off you English domain-squatting shits" comments.

That essay on learned helplessness that you posted in another thread was good but I think I've found the limit of its usefulness here:

Vitamin D studies confirm correlations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au6FKi8aAsA

I have absolutely no idea whether this is a load of bollocks or not. Within the limitations of my understanding, he seems to make a coherent argument but some of the comments underneath make me wary.

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Re: Vitamin D
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2021, 10:59:26 AM »
A blood test found I was deficient in Vitamin D and I got a supplement. The packaging says to take one tablet a fortnight but the printed label tells me to take it twice a week. I was slightly concerned this was a fuck-up on the pharmacy's part but I've been taking it twice a week.

This is just so the sneaky pharmacists can get away with taking half the tablets themselves.

Re: Vitamin D
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2021, 11:01:09 AM »
What about Sunny D?

non capisco

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Re: Vitamin D
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2021, 11:06:56 AM »
What about Cheeky D?

Zetetic

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Re: Vitamin D
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2021, 11:32:29 AM »
That essay on learned helplessness that you posted in another thread was good but I think I've found the limit of its usefulness here:
I think, in terms of personal choices, the main point is that you have a lot of good evidence (in the form of sources with good authority) telling you Vitamin D is perfectly safe and sensible to take in the British Autumn/Winter anyway, and it's extremely cheap.

So you don't have to form much confidence around its COVID-protective effects to decide that taking it is a good idea. (Or any, really, I've been slowly convinced that I might as well take it in the Winter - and try to get others to do so - for years. But the 'ViD finally made me actually do so.)

(Incidentally, the bloke you linked arguably fucks up p-values, but who doesn't. And the wider point is again that you have to make sense of your evidence in the context of prior beliefs and the risks of making false-positive and false-negative errors.)

Appreciate that this is a bit different from advocating something to the UK Government.

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