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March 29, 2024, 02:55:53 PM

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Better Call Saul - the sixth (and final) season

Started by Blue Jam, February 24, 2021, 12:26:37 PM

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Blue Jam

On the subject of Mr Mortimer, I'm being reminded of the time I had tickets for Reeves and Mortimer's Poignant Moments Tour when Mortimer had his heart bypass and it was postponed. I had been really looking forward to it but I didn't give a fuck, it was horrible reading about stuff like Bob Mortimer having a quickie wedding to his partner in case he didn't make it and I just hoped he'd pull through. And then when the new date rolled around it was just a joy to see him all heart-healthy and jumping around with Vic.

Good bit where he was talking about having to take it easy and explaining the heart monitor on his wrist before segueing into an "Oh, I've fallen" gag as well.

Blue Jam


Ja'moke




Blue Jam

Quote from: Utterdrivel on July 31, 2021, 01:53:51 PM
Got a tweet with a typo from Graeme Garden too. He's made it.


https://twitter.com/GraemeGarden1/status/1421379511397064705?s=20

He might actually be pretty made up with that:

https://youtu.be/sctiTNJyizM?t=103

Come on, Bill Oddie, send him a dressing gown.

Echo Valley 2-6809

Quote from: Utterdrivel on July 31, 2021, 01:53:51 PM
Got a tweet with a typo from Graeme Garden too. He's made it.


https://twitter.com/GraemeGarden1/status/1421379511397064705?s=20

Quote from: Blue Jam on July 31, 2021, 03:58:22 PM
He might actually be pretty made up with that:

https://youtu.be/sctiTNJyizM?t=103

Come on, Bill Oddie, send him a dressing gown.

As you probably know, he also writes about The Goodies in his memoir, due out December/January I think.

Blue Jam

Quote from: Echo Valley 2-6809 on July 31, 2021, 04:02:07 PM
As you probably know, he also writes about The Goodies in his memoir, due out December/January I think.

How would I know that if it's not out yet? ;) Have you reviewed an advance copy or something?

I'm wondering if he'll be hastily adding an extra chapter. That (excellent) title seems a little bit more poignant now.


Blue Jam

Oh yes, I had seen that, but I think I was just too blown away by his mention of The Framley Examiner to remember that he Mentioned The Goodies.

I know I joke about the possibility that he lurks on here but I do have to wonder...

Blue Jam

The show must go on:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CSQmDMJLiqp/

No source given but All About Saul are usually on the money. Would be nice to have at least one more episode direected by Vince Gilligan.

It looks like filming of the non-Jimmy/Saul/Gene bits may be continuing. Bob's still recovering but back on Twitter and "doing great":

https://mobile.twitter.com/mrbobodenkirk/status/1423873852845682695

Blue Jam

After taking in a pregnant dog and raising eight puppies while filming season 5, Bob'n'Rhea'n'Patrick have some new pets and some new babies on the way:

https://twitter.com/rheaseehorn/status/1424196787372367877

D'awwww this is like Springwatch. Let's see if they can train them to fly into shot like that one who photobombed Daniel Wormald.


Blue Jam

Will they pay out if your truck was set fire to by a pair of creepily silent cousins?

Confirmed writers and directors so far, via Reddit, and seemingly according to various tweets, sightings etc:



(Peter Gould?) because he always writes and directs the series opener, apparently.

Racy Horn was spotted calling the shots during the filming of episode 4. I'm very interested to see how that turns out, especially knowing one of her favourite films is my own favourite film, Brazil.

Also if you've been wondering about Bart Okendorf Bob Odenkirk's hospital radio playlist, he accidentally leaked it on Twitter earlier this week:

https://mobile.twitter.com/mrbobodenkirk/status/1424804379698221088

JamesTC

Rewatched Breaking Bad and am now rewatching Better Call Saul. Had a thought regarding Jimmy.

Whilst there is a still a few years between where we are in Better Call Saul and Breaking Bad, there doesn't seem to be enough time for him to really become the sleaze ball he is in Breaking Bad. In Better Call Saul we see Slippin' Jimmy constantly change for the latest scam or money making idea whether it be practising elder law, working for a legitimate law firm or being a cell phone salesman. Is it that Saul is the first "con" that he can play and succeed as over a long period? Criminals want a sleazy criminal lawyer because they know he won't necessarily be bound by ethics (which Slippin' Jimmy never particularly is). And following that he can't stick with Gene in the same way he can't stick with any of his other scams for too long.

In many ways, this makes Jimmy a less sympathetic character. He is just a con artist looking for the easy path to success at all times. When we feel sympathy for the "real" Jimmy it is really Slippin' Jimmy conning the audience. By the same token, it makes his Saul persona more likeable when we know it is something he is playing up.

I know some of this might be obvious, I mean it is the core of Chuck's purpose for being in the show because he knew the true Jimmy and it led to his death. But I do feel that Jimmy did previously elicit a huge amount of sympathy, which I wouldn't apply to Saul.

mothman

It's true, there's still potentially a lot to happen to get from Jimmy to Saul. But as for which is the real Jimmy, I think we've seen how he is when nobody's watching, or when he's with Kim..?

Blue Jam

I've been thinking about this as well. One part of the show that never sat quite right for me is The Kevin Costner Incident, and while I do laugh at that scene... it's a bit rapey, no? I have wondered if it would have been better left as a little throwaway line in BrBa, just Saul coming out with some bullshit. Now I've started to wonder- Chuck's whole "I know what you were, what you are. You're Slippin' Jimmy, people don't change" might actually explain everything everything. Maybe "Kevin Costner" was the behaviour of the true Jimmy and that "James McGill Esquire" of Albuquerque just couldn't help sliding back into his true "Slippin' Jimmy" self once he returned to his old haunts in Cicero.

Maybe the only things holding back the sleaze have been his eagerness to make Chuck proud of him, and his eagerness to impress Kim- and now Chuck is dead and Kim is married to him and "breaking bad" herself there may be nothing left to keep his true nature in check. Maybe Saul Goodman isn't Jimmy McGill minus the heart, but Jimmy McGill briefly gained a bit of heart once he met Kim and his brother got ill? Once he found himself around two people he really cared about and really didn't want to lose?

Knowing how unpredictable this show is I am almost certainly very wrong though. Meanwhile, Jimmy himself seems to be making a good recovery, been for a lovely walk with the lovely Michael Mando:

https://twitter.com/mrbobodenkirk/status/1426007592296345602

Blue Jam

Also I decided to give Veep another go last night, remembering Rhea Seehorn is in the final series, and then looking it up and finding Michael McKean is in it as well. I remember quite liking Veep when I gave season 1 a go before just drifting away from it, but in season 7 Selina Meyer has her sights on the presidential nomination so the stakes are a bit higher, and the cast list is intriguing. Her rival is played by Hugh Laurie (doing his Dr House accent) with Racy as his "frigid, pole-up-her-ass" campaign manager
Spoiler alert
who evidently ain't that frigid because she's also boffing him
[close]
. Best of all, The JLD's cheerily hapless campaign manager is Andy Daly- Forrest MacNeill himself as the equivalent of John Duggan in The Thick Of It. Racy is a bit underused but always welcome, would recommend.

amputeeporn

Apologies if this is in the wrong place but I've just started watching this show (obviously I quickly scrolled past all this season 6 talk). I'm onto episode 9 of season one, and have been meaning to post here with each passing ep, to ask if and when the show improves...

Happily, I thought episode 9 (Jimmy's discovery of a nursing home scam, the deepening of his rivalry with his brother's law firm and a spectacular fall out with his brother) was terrific TV. I'm really hoping that everything that came before was just the shit they had to get out of the way first and it'll begin building from here.

I watched about three or four episodes when it first aired but fell away because everything seemed so predictable and silly. Sitting through those episodes again really rammed home how right my initial instincts were, but of course BB had a shaky start as well (although I never struggled with that as much as I did this). One thing right off the bat: people who talk about this on the level of the all-timers, your Sopranos, your Wires, your Mad Men, even your Deadwoods, are just in space. This is really silly, sometimes head-hittingly stupid stuff, but you can see in flashes where it hits its stride how enjoyable it could be. I guess I'm just hoping to hear that season one is thought of as a bit rocky...?

Lots of stuff plain doesn't scan: His Network quotes - 'It's from a movie!' Him talking his way out of Tuco killing the skate kids by saying 'Be proportionate! You want people to think you're fair!' Flashback after flashback of Odenkirk in a series of wigs (and what? Supposedly in his twenties?) as a small time conman, which serve nothing but to make it all more unreal. The one of him ripping a hit on a bong with a mullet while visibly in his 40s is just weird and pointless, but they keep at it. I'm starting to salivate at the thought of getting a scene where Mike's wearing a jet black toupee and we're watching his first day on the force...

I'm glad Mike is now getting stuck into the underworld stuff, because stuff like him being the parking attendant, then getting embroiled in the  tax theft case is so bad. The family being found camping with a bag full of cash (with the requisite tug of war over the bag that spills its contents everywhere) - is obviously rubs, and their discovery is based on some truly dubious TV logic. Mike, knowing literally nothing about the case, says: 'No one wants to leave home' and then Jimmy just walks out into the endless Albuquerque wilderness (day turns to night) alone, and just happens upon them.

Odenkirk's passable acting has, I think, improved as the season's gone on - which is a big plus - but he only really shines when being something like the swaggy Saul Goodman we know (that said, his cold realisation of his brother's betrayal in episode 9 was well handled). I think one of the reasons I checked out the first time is that Cranston's barn-storming performance was still too fresh in my mind, so I'm not holding him to that standard but hope he continues to improve.

I nearly stopped watching after the Mike flashback episode - genuinely can't remember ever being more bored while watching a show where multiple people are murdered, it was torture. I'm hoping we've now suitably set him and Jimmy up and can just go forward.

So straw poll, does this get better? My post looks quite negative, but it's passing the time, and as I say - there are flashes of the show it could be. I don't mind the odd silly moment, but probs don't want to watch five more seasons at this standard.

Blue Jam

You're gonna love episode 10 then... ;)

Seriously: it sounds like this show is just not for you. Bit like me and Killing Eve- I can appreciate the quality but somehow I can't enjoy it. Just move on and watch something else.

selectivememory

Hmm. You might struggle with Season 2. I liked it, but it definitely felt a bit meandering at times, and if anything the pace is slower than the first season. I seem to remember that Jimmy's story across the season wasn't the best, whereas it was Mike who really carried the show. I think that's when it lost a lot of people here, though plenty stuck with it as well.

Season 3 onwards is, IMO, very good TV. Stakes get a lot higher, a lot of the plot threads finally start paying off, especially the
Spoiler alert
Chuck and Jimmy
[close]
side of things. Not Sopranos or Deadwood tier, but then that's a very high bar. But definitely one of the best shows of the last decade.

There is still plenty of silliness, and things that don't hold up to much scrutiny[nb]I hated the Tuco stuff in the first couple of episodes, but there generally isn't that much BB fan service, though of course, other characters do show up.[/nb]. But that doesn't bother me so much as the character work and performances are fantastic, and the show always looks gorgeous. The pace is always pretty slow, but usually it's purposeful with that, Season 2 aside. But it has moments of tension to rival Breaking Bad too.

Rev+

Quote from: JamesTC on August 11, 2021, 08:26:12 PM
Whilst there is a still a few years between where we are in Better Call Saul and Breaking Bad, there doesn't seem to be enough time for him to really become the sleaze ball he is in Breaking Bad.

They've already done it once though.  The end of the first series set him up to be fully-formed as Saul when the second started, but got unpicked.  I'm sure there'll be time jumps in this final run, and at this point we only need a little bit of shorthand to get the picture about how he transforms.

Amputeeporn, if you weren't on board for the first series, you will hate the second one.  It has the classic problem with US TV series:  the first is a petition to get a second, which if it happens, ends up being a bit weak and adrift as they're now thinking of a third or fourth.  'Lost' was the worst for this, and 'The Sopranos' only escaped because they had no particular assurance that they'd get a third go at it when filming.

Blue Jam

Quote from: amputeeporn on August 17, 2021, 11:38:25 PM
I watched about three or four episodes when it first aired but fell away because everything seemed so predictable and silly... This is really silly, sometimes head-hittingly stupid stuff...

I'm glad Mike is now getting stuck into the underworld stuff, because stuff like him being the parking attendant, then getting embroiled in the  tax theft case is so bad. The family being found camping with a bag full of cash (with the requisite tug of war over the bag that spills its contents everywhere) - is obviously rubs, and their discovery is based on some truly dubious TV logic.

If you thought the Kettlemans "kidnapping themselves" was silly then I'm afraid there is a lot of stuff coming up that you're going to absolutely hate. The self-kidnapping plot may have been influenced by The Big Lebowski, as a lot of this show seems to be- it's been described with "If Breaking Bad is No Country For Old Men, Better Call Saul is The Big Lebowski"- and while it does get heartbreakingly bleak and tragic at times, overall it's much more of a comedy than Breaking Bad was.

While it may be nothing like the wacky half-hour Client Of The Week sitcom that was originally hinted at, it's still a spin-off based around the comic relief character played by a comedian, and Gilligan and Gould wanted to make it partly because they were having a lot of fun writing comedy for a change, so you're simply never going to get too far away from the comedy with this show.

You probably won't enjoy stuff like
Spoiler alert
the Jimmy getting himself fired montage
[close]
in "Inflatable",
Spoiler alert
Jimmy and Kim's scheme for Huell to avoid jail time
[close]
near the end of season 4,
Spoiler alert
Jimmy sending prostitutes to Howard's business lunch
[close]
in "Dedicado a Max", and much more besides.

If the sibling rivalry subplot is your thing (it's one of my favourite things too) maybe just employ the "Sunk Costs" fallacy and skip to season 3's "Chicanery" and "Lantern" to see that at its most intense.

amputeeporn

Hmm - thank you for your responses! I hope my late night brain dump didn't look like I was trashing your show - I love Odenkirk and the character, and am interested in him, and there is good stuff here. I guess I'll see how episode 10 pans out (ordinarily I'd have watched that before posting but partner is struck down with Covid so we've had to press pause on it for a moment).

It's funny - the slowness doesn't bother me so much, and the actual premise of the Kettlemans is fun, in a mad American-type way. I'd imagine there are thousands of Florida-man type tales that would intersect well with the life of a low-down lawyer. The problem is the silly shortcuts the show takes in telling and resolving those stories (Mike just walking into the Kettlemans' house, wandering round and finding the money [and yes he had the UV light, but that was in itself silly, and didn't explain why no one heard or saw him - BB did have its share of those He's A Bad Man So He Can Do Anything moments, though]).

colacentral

I remember thinking that season 2 was loads better and that all these cunts were mad for thinking it was a step down, for what it's worth, though I have absolutely zero idea what happens in it now. I will say that, like you, I thought the early episodes especially and season 1 as a whole were pretty dreadful, so merely not being outright bad was a step up.

It does improve as it goes on. Odenkirk gets much better at the dramatic later on too.

Blue Jam

The season 2 opener "Switch" may actually be my favourite episode. It's definitely the one I've rewatched the most.
Spoiler alert
Incredible chemistry between Bob'n'Rhea, all the flirty looks during their scam and the giddiness afterwards, they're adorable. Plus Daniel Wormald pulling up in his "school bus for six-year-old pimps" with a "HEY! IT'S ME!" is the icing on the cake
[close]
.

amputeeporn, the next episode ("Marco") might really put you off. I guess it depends on what you think of
Spoiler alert
Jimmy's bingo hall breakdown
[close]
- probably one of the iconic moments of the series but viewers seem divided on whether it was an Emmy-worthy tour-de-force or an irritatingly contrived situation that lays the cringe on a bit too thick. In any case it's a tough watch (and the subject matter ain't pretty), maybe just see what you think. I suspect
Spoiler alert
Jimmy and Marco's scamming spree in Cicero
[close]
may kill off your interest for good though.

I can't agree with the "Odenkirk's passable acting" comment as I thought he was surprisingly great from the start, very big range and great at eye-acting, though I didn't really know his work pre-BB so perhaps I just had no real expectations. There is a noticable uptick in quality as the show continues though, a few years' dramatic acting experience (versus zero) certainly make a difference.

I'd also suggest you keep watching if you enjoyed what you've seen of Rhea Seehorn's acting so far. She's underused in season 1 but that gets rectified from season 2 onwards. You'll definitely want to keep going until "Bad Choice Road". Much better supporting cast in BCS than in BB too I reckon, and much more complex characters for them to play with.

My one big criticism of the show is that the cartel stuff doesn't interest me as much as the rest, so I think Nacho and Lalo were the shot in the arm the cartel story badly needed. Lalo doesn't show up until season 4 but he's a fantastic villain, a sharp-dressed smiling charismatic sociopath, I find him a more compelling villain than any in BB.

QuoteThe problem is the silly shortcuts the show takes in telling and resolving those stories (Mike just walking into the Kettlemans' house, wandering round and finding the money [and yes he had the UV light, but that was in itself silly

If you'd prefer to watch Mike being slow and meticulous there are definitely moments when you'l be in for a treat...

Give "Marco" a go and please share your thoughts, I'm intrigued to know whether you'll love or hate it!

Quote from: amputeeporn on August 17, 2021, 11:38:25 PM
So straw poll, does this get better? My post looks quite negative, but it's passing the time, and as I say - there are flashes of the show it could be. I don't mind the odd silly moment, but probs don't want to watch five more seasons at this standard.

I didn't mind the first series, but nearly gave up after the second which I remember thinking felt like a run-of-the-mill American legal drama. I'm glad I didn't - series three onwards have been outstanding.

And while I'm not quite on the 'better than Breaking Bad' bus, the latest series was better than any single series of BB. It's remarkable how they create so much jeopardy when you already known the fate of several of the characters.

JamesTC

Quote from: mothman on August 11, 2021, 10:36:48 PM
It's true, there's still potentially a lot to happen to get from Jimmy to Saul. But as for which is the real Jimmy, I think we've seen how he is when nobody's watching, or when he's with Kim..?

Quote from: Blue Jam on August 13, 2021, 12:53:19 PM
I've been thinking about this as well. One part of the show that never sat quite right for me is The Kevin Costner Incident, and while I do laugh at that scene... it's a bit rapey, no? I have wondered if it would have been better left as a little throwaway line in BrBa, just Saul coming out with some bullshit. Now I've started to wonder- Chuck's whole "I know what you were, what you are. You're Slippin' Jimmy, people don't change" might actually explain everything everything. Maybe "Kevin Costner" was the behaviour of the true Jimmy and that "James McGill Esquire" of Albuquerque just couldn't help sliding back into his true "Slippin' Jimmy" self once he returned to his old haunts in Cicero.

Maybe the only things holding back the sleaze have been his eagerness to make Chuck proud of him, and his eagerness to impress Kim- and now Chuck is dead and Kim is married to him and "breaking bad" herself there may be nothing left to keep his true nature in check. Maybe Saul Goodman isn't Jimmy McGill minus the heart, but Jimmy McGill briefly gained a bit of heart once he met Kim and his brother got ill? Once he found himself around two people he really cared about and really didn't want to lose?

I couldn't remember what you were referring to with the Kevin Costner scene until I rewatched that episode yesterday. Jesus, it is horrible. It was really that one that cemented in my head that Saul isn't a character so much as Jimmy without any reason to hold back his inhibitions. The guy who lies to a drunk woman to have sex and the one who has a happy ending massage in his office aren't poles apart.

I think the Jimmy we see is always the real Jimmy, it is just he has motivations which make him act in a certain way in certain situations. When he is working in the post room and doing night courses, he is doing so as his motivation is to ride Chuck's coattails to the top and make Kim want a relationship with him.

Kim seems to be the big motivator. She is the motivation for initially considering Davis & Main and then turning them down in the opening scene of Season 2. Likewise not stealing the Kettleman money is about getting Kim her position in HHM back despite him describing it as "doing the right thing" to Mike. Kim pulling back on him at the end of the Season 2 opener is also what motivates him to take the job with Davis & Main. I'm just watching him get a bollocking off Cliff and then walk in pretending he got a big congratulations to Kim who then cuddles up to him.

Quote from: Blue Jam on August 18, 2021, 12:42:25 PM
I'd also suggest you keep watching if you enjoyed what you've seen of Rhea Seehorn's acting so far. She's underused in season 1 but that gets rectified from season 2 onwards. You'll definitely want to keep going until "Bad Choice Road". Much better supporting cast in BCS than in BB too I reckon, and much more complex characters for them to play with.

My one big criticism of the show is that the cartel stuff doesn't interest me as much as the rest, so I think Nacho and Lalo were the shot in the arm the cartel story badly needed. Lalo doesn't show up until season 4 but he's a fantastic villain, a sharp-dressed smiling charismatic sociopath, I find him a more compelling villain than any in BB.

Yes to all of this. The show gets much better in season 3, and just gets better and better as it goes, especially when Lalo shows up.

Blue Jam

Quote from: JamesTC on August 18, 2021, 05:36:16 PM
I couldn't remember what you were referring to with the Kevin Costner scene until I rewatched that episode yesterday. Jesus, it is horrible. It was really that one that cemented in my head that Saul isn't a character so much as Jimmy without any reason to hold back his inhibitions. The guy who lies to a drunk woman to have sex and the one who has a happy ending massage in his office aren't poles apart.

I rewatched "Marco" after discussing it here and for the first time I realised season 1 has bookends. In "Uno" Jimmy defends his clients with "Oh, to be 19 again!" before the CCTV of them having sex with a severed head is shown, then in "Marco" he calls one of the bingo numbers with "O64! As in: 'Oh, to be 64 again!'" before going on his own seedy little escapade. Except he can't blame it on youthful exuberance, Jimmy is 42 there (and presumably Marco is around the same age) and the women (judging by the uniforms I think they may be waiting or bar staff) might be half their age. And the way he offers them orange juice while drinking from the carton and scratching his arse (apologies if you can't not notice that from now) and seems amused by how eager they are to get the fuck away ("Door sticks..."). It's just horrible to see him treating the two women like trash, like they're just two more marks and the whole sordid affair is no worse than conning some poor dupe into buying a fake Rolex.

...and then in the very next episode, "Switch", he's so much more respectful towards Kim- he's running a con but he's at least honest to Kim about what he really is, and he lets her make up her own mind about whether she likes that side of him or not- and she does, and she makes the first move, and what happens afterwards is on her terms. And later still he even mentions the fact that "it's the lionesses that do the hunting" to avoid being sexist! The Kevin Costner Incident seems out of character compared with how he treats Kim (and also the woman he's chatting up in the first deleted scene here), I did wonder if it was bad writing but maybe it's not out of character after all.

QuoteI think the Jimmy we see is always the real Jimmy, it is just he has motivations which make him act in a certain way in certain situations. When he is working in the post room and doing night courses, he is doing so as his motivation is to ride Chuck's coattails to the top and make Kim want a relationship with him.

Now you put it that way I think you're absolutely right. Perhaps Jimmy is always "The Real Jimmy" but Saul Goodman is just Jimmy at the point where he's finally feeling totally comfortable in his own skin (as Gilligan and Gould have often described him). The influence of people around him and who he wants to impress (or doesn't) certainly have shaped him, whether it was having Marco in awe of him, winning Chuck's respect or getting into a relationship with Kim.

I'm now wondering if Kim "breaking bad" at the end of season 5 might tip her over into full-on Enabler Mode and make her very bad for Jimmy, pushing him closer to becoming Saul, rather than her leaving him being the thing that makes Saul become so very jaded and cynical. In any case I can't see Kim sticking by the man who sexually harasses poor Francesca (who ends up even more jaded than he is) and gets regular visits from his "chiropractor".

QuoteI'm just watching him get a bollocking off Cliff and then walk in pretending he got a big congratulations to Kim who then cuddles up to him.

Yes, that bit's horrible as well, and again maybe not too far removed from the kind of behaviour we'd expect from Saul. I'm thinking Howard's "Do you know who else really knew Jimmy? Chuck" comment might be another portentous one. Kim may be aware of Jimmy's past as a conman, and she may know about the Chicago Sunroof incident, but I bet What Happened In Cicero Stayed In Cicero.