Miles Davis: He's alright, in't he?

[M-CORP]

Studying a music degree, I'm currently prepping for a 2,000 word essay on whether or not Miles Davis sold out. This means I've been digging into his back catalogue, particularly stuff from In A Silent Way and On The Corner.

One can argue at times how involved Davis really was, but God, there's some good stuff. And I don't even think he declined as much as people like to say. Heard bits of Rubberband and Doo-Bop (you know, that posthumous rap album) for the first time today. I like it. 'Mystery' is clean and dope as fuck (a great intellectual insight, I know), and The Doo-Bop Song, while not being the best rap in the world and heavily based on a ripoff sample of DJ Premier (before Autechre used it for 'Lowride'), is very listenable. To me at least.

Might have been unkind to his girlfriends, and unkind to himself with substance abuse, but a sellout? A man whose tracks more often than not went beyond the length of the usual radio hit, who was inspired by Stockhausen just as much as he dug Cyndi Lauper and Michael Jackson? Who never seemed to have any principles beyond playing music to begin with? I think not. The music that has his name attached is, from what I've heard so far, ahead of its time, and unbound by petty pigeonholes of genre. It's pretty good.

That's all I wanted to say.

[Johnny Yesno]

Sorry to break the bad news to you but I'm afraid he's not alright. He died in 1991.

[holyzombiejesus]

Recent thread here...

https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,81462.0.html

[Jockice]

Little dodgy maybe but underneath he's alright.

Oh, sorry, that's Arthur Daley, not Miles Davis.

[Petey Pate]

Studying a music degree, I'm currently prepping for a 2,000 word essay on whether or not Miles Davis sold out. This means I've been digging into his back catalogue, particularly stuff from In A Silent Way and On The Corner.

One can argue at times how involved Davis really was, but God, there's some good stuff. And I don't even think he declined as much as people like to say. Heard bits of Rubberband and Doo-Bop (you know, that posthumous rap album) for the first time today. I like it. 'Mystery' is clean and dope as fuck (a great intellectual insight, I know), and The Doo-Bop Song, while not being the best rap in the world and heavily based on a ripoff sample of DJ Premier (before Autechre used it for 'Lowride'), is very listenable. To me at least.

Might have been unkind to his girlfriends, and unkind to himself with substance abuse, but a sellout? A man whose tracks more often than not went beyond the length of the usual radio hit, who was inspired by Stockhausen just as much as he dug Cyndi Lauper and Michael Jackson? Who never seemed to have any principles beyond playing music to begin with? I think not. The music that has his name attached is, from what I've heard so far, ahead of its time, and unbound by petty pigeonholes of genre. It's pretty good.

That's all I wanted to say.

Brandford Marsalis once said something along the lines that Miles never sold out, he just always wanted to be at the forefront of whatever was innovative and new.  Even back in the 1940s, he moved to New York specifically so he could hook up with Charlie Parker.

I'm not a great fan of his post comeback stuff as a whole but reading George Cole's book Last Miles stopped me from dismissing this period outright. There's a few highlights like the Star People album (the last time he worked with both Gil Evans and Teo Macero) and Doo Bop is entertaining but in no way essential.

[NoSleep]

I'm completely in love with the electric period covered from In A Silent Way to the start of his "hiatus" around 1975, with Live/Evil being my favourite (mostly thanks to Keith Jarrett) and Agartha coming 2nd. The couple of years preceding the hiatus he was moving into an area akin to krautrock (which Julian Cope discusses at length on Head Heritage https://www.headheritage.co.uk/unsung/albumofthemonth/miles-davis-on-the-one ).

There's actually a (very slightly) earlier precursor to this period, entitled "Circle In The Round" recorded in April 1967 (with Wayne Shorter (tenor sax), Joe Beck (gtr), Herbie Hancock (celeste!), Ron Carter (bass) & Tony Williams (drums))  which was shelved until an edited-down version ("only" 26'17" long compared to 33'32") was released in 1979, during the aforementioned hiatus. Well worth a listen; very hypnotic, spanish feel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFttm1WM01U

[RenegadeScrew]

When is he supposed to have sold out?  The later stuff was maybe a bit rubbish, but he hardly starts churning out pop hits.  In many ways, it would've been quite a feat for Davis to artistically survive the 80s unscathed. 

It seems some jazz fans think he sold out when he went electric.  Yet, I think the average person would find 'kind of blue' the most listenable record he made.  I'm pretty sure it's his best selling too.

As others have mentioned that period from IASW up until 1975 is pretty impeccable, including live albums.  On The Corner is probably the easiest one to get into.  Or Jack Johnson.

[NoSleep]

When is he supposed to have sold out?

Stanley Crouch was a long time and unconvincing proponent of the Miles Davis "sell out":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OLqid9RABs

[thugler]

As others have said, even his 'sell out' era wasn't that bad, and included some experimentation and embracing of new styles, which can only be commended.

[RenegadeScrew]

Stanley Crouch was a long time and unconvincing proponent of the Miles Davis "sell out":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OLqid9RABs

Thanks for that.  Mtume is spot on.

[Malcy]

If you like In A Silent Way it's worth checking out this as well.

https://www.milesdavis.com/albums/everythings-beautiful/

Robert Glasper used recordings and outtakes to create it. Fantastic piece of work.

[NattyDread 2]

The couple of years preceding the hiatus he was moving into an area akin to krautrock (which Julian Cope discusses at length on Head Heritage https://www.headheritage.co.uk/unsung/albumofthemonth/miles-davis-on-the-one )

Just had a wee skim read of the start of that. Sounds like I need to get stuck right in! I love Circle in the Round and Silent Way. Don't know any of those four double albums. Should be a right old adventure.

[NoSleep]

One of the guitarists in that mid 70's "krautrock" period is Pete Cosey, who was house guitarist at Chess in the late 60's and so played on the Rotary Connection albums and was literally the "electric" on Muddy Waters "Electric Mud".

[famethrowa]

Arthur Daley

George Cole

Oh come on now.

[Johnny Yesno]

On The Corner is probably the easiest one to get into.

On the Corner is the only Miles Davis I've heard that I like. Did he do any more music in that vein?

[NoSleep]

What others have you heard? There's several that are similar. Try anything recorded between 1970 to 1975 (basically the period that Michael Henderson was his bass player). Lots of music from the very same sessions were released subsequently on Get Up With It and Big Fun (and, of course, there's The Complete On the Corner Sessions).

[RenegadeScrew]

On the Corner is the only Miles Davis I've heard that I like. Did he do any more music in that vein?

I don't think he did really, at least not in whole.  I'd think you'd like A Tribute To Jack Johnson.  A lot of the albums from the electric period have similar elements, but there is something about those two albums that make them seem least jazzy.  Like if Hendrix had made any Davis albums it'd be them two.

As well as the albums mentioned by NoSleep, I'd also say bits of Live-Evil are also similar.  The third tune 'What I Say' is probably the catchiest of all Davis electric period stuff, at least for me. 

[NoSleep]

The aforementioned "krautrock" period shortly before his hiatus are in the character of On The Corner, including versions of tunes from the same sessions, although he seems never to have performed On The Corner itself in a live setting for some, reason. Agartha, Dark Magus & Pangaea cover that final chapter well. Imagine how disappointing Man With The Horn (which sounds like any other fusion music of the era) was after those.

[greenman]

The "sellout" label was really something that was directed at Jazz rock as a whole wasn't it? Miles as arguably the biggest name who switched across(I'm guessing Coltrane might have more had he lived?) ended up targeted with it even though as said the music was arguably less accessible than what he'd been coming up with previously in the early/mid 60's.

I think Dark Magnus is perhaps the definitive album of that jazz funk style just prior to his late 70's layoff(well released during it but recorded in 74) although I do like Get Up With It, especially He Loved Him Madly.

[NoSleep]

The "sellout" label was really something that was directed at Jazz rock as a whole wasn't it? Miles as arguably the biggest name who switched across(I'm guessing Coltrane might have more had he lived?) ended up targeted with it even though as said the music was arguably less accessible than what he'd been coming up with previously in the early/mid 60's.

Stanley Crouch is pretty specifically targeting Miles with the label. They featured Crouch in the Miles Electric documentary mostly so the audience can laugh at him. The only notable person who gave support to Crouch was Wynton Marsalis who also has very conservative ideas about what instrumentation, etc is permitted in "jazz". Worth noting that many great "jazz" musicians have rejected the label, e.g. Duke Ellington (whom, I sure, Crouch and Marsalis regard as the epitome of jazz) declaring Paul Whiteman the "king of jazz" whilst describing his own music as "beyond category" (damning with faint praise there).

[Video Game Fan 2000]

On the Corner is the only Miles Davis I've heard that I like. Did he do any more music in that vein?

This is a must listen for On the Corner fans:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Concert_(Miles_Davis_album)

I don't know why its overlooked, maybe because the songs and players were obscured in the original tracklisting. Not only is it the only live record where he plays On The Corner material, but its a faithful exploration of the extremity of that record which seperates it from the Jack Johnson/Cellar Door stuff. Even by On The Corner standards, they push it out.

Other than that, Big Fun for "Ife" and Get Up With it for "Rated X" and "Calypso Frelimo". "Rated X" being the fabled 'funky Stockhausen' track. Sounds like This Heat playing in a microwave.

[thugler]

This concert in Vienna from 1973 popped up on my youtube recs today and enjoyed listening while working today. Some really intense moments. Particularly enjoy Pete Cosey's playing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOA9_TdRFt4

[WhoMe]

The ferocious playing on Four and More is just something else. Finally bought a copy of the record and have played it three times since yesterday. The backstory of them arguing backstage about the fee just before the gig adds an extra something. Tony Williams on drums was 18! Some of the fills and breaks he pulls out on Walkin', let alone his solo...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3OF_exaBhk