Star Wars: A New Dope

[greenman]

There was a major problem that Michael Arndt faced when he started working on Episode VII and that he wasn't able to solve. Whenever Luke was implicated in the early attempts at writing a plot, there couldn't be any stakes, because Luke was now supposed to be extremely powerful. When JJ Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan took over (because Arndt worked too slowly), they had the same issues and kept on pushing Luke near the margins of the film, ultimately turning the story into a quest for Luke without finding a proper explanation for why he had vanished, ending the film on a cliffhanger.

There were major questions that were also not addressed. If Luke had felt through the Force that Leia and Han were in danger, why didn't he go back to their rescue?

Ultimately, because the writers for The Force Awakens hadn't found a proper explanation, it was up to Johnson to make the actual major choices. I'm not sure he could have made a coherent narrative decision that didn't imply Luke shutting himself away from the Force willingly.

Really though I think the firing of Arndt and the hiring of Abrams was basically Disney giving up on taking their time to lay the foundations for the franchise and instead just hiring someone they knew could spit out a formulaic release similar to his Trek fairly fast.

I think you see early on with Force Awakens there are hints at the film it could have been with Rey's abandonment and Finn child solider trauma but within 20 mins or so their largly ignored in favour of throwing nostalgia at you so fast you can't blink.

[St_Eddie]

Ultimately, because the writers for The Force Awakens hadn't found a proper explanation, it was up to Johnson to make the actual major choices. I'm not sure he could have made a coherent narrative decision that didn't imply Luke shutting himself away from the Force willingly.

Rian Johnson could have just stuck with the explanation offered by the dialogue in The Force Awakens...

There are a lot of rumors. Stories. The people who knew him the best think he went looking for the first Jedi temple.

Instead Johnson made it so that Luke had become a recluse, having turned his back on the Jedi and the force... in spite the fact that Luke is wearing his Jedi robes at the end of The Force Awakens.

[Dusty Substance]

What is it about the kid at the end you don't like? What it represents or how it was executed?

It's not how you end the middle chapter of a trilogy. I totally understand what the scene represented (ie: that the Jedi isn't over and there will always still be force sensitive beings) and it would've been a fine ending for the end of the final film, but it feels totally disjointed from the rest of the film.

The biggest problem I have with it is that it seems to take place very soon after the events of the rest of the film (ie: the kids from earlier on in TLJ are the same age) but they're talking about Luke's appearance on Crait like it's already some sort of legend. How did the story reach those kids so quickly?

[greenman]

The most interesting idea I saw mentioned quite often was Luke as some kind of "Grey Jedi" or acknowledged the darkside more to avoid being controled by it and honestly I think you do see hints at that in the earlier scenes with Rey.

It does go back to the idea that Last Jedi wasnt really Johnson being given as much of a free hand as has been claimed, that maybe something like that was rejected by Disney, perhaps because the simpler good/evil setup was viewed as more marketable?

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

Grumpy Luke being pretty much a different character to the one fans longed to see back punctured the whole thing.

I have no time for this. Imagine expecting a character to be totally unchanged by the intervening thirty years, seeing the future he fought for come under threat and his own nephew idolise Darth Vader and turn to the Dark Side.

[madhair60]

i wish you could delete posts because I wrote a Star Wars post here then remembered the entire "fandom" can go jump off a cliff

[Dusty Substance]

i wish you could delete posts because I wrote a Star Wars post here then remembered the entire "fandom" can go jump off a cliff

#NotAllStarWarsFans

[mothman]

It's not how you end the middle chapter of a trilogy. I totally understand what the scene represented (ie: that the Jedi isn't over and there will always still be force sensitive beings) and it would've been a fine ending for the end of the final film, but it feels totally disjointed from the rest of the film.

The biggest problem I have with it is that it seems to take place very soon after the events of the rest of the film (ie: the kids from earlier on in TLJ are the same age) but they're talking about Luke's appearance on Crait like it's already some sort of legend. How did the story reach those kids so quickly?

Well, I get your point about how the recent events have become widely known so quickly. Dramatic convenience, I guess (the same sort of thing that allows people to take either five minutes or several months getting from one end of Westeros to the other, to pick one example). It wouldn't necessarily be an issue in itself, if it weren't yet another issue coming at the end of a film with many issues.

As for this scene coming at the end of ep 8 not 9, well, again it might not have mattered so much if all the plot innovations introduced in 8 hadn't been subsequently ignored in 9. Perhaps done right this payoff could have featured at the end of 9 - but it'd run the risk of not having the emotional impact it's intended to, because nobody'd remember those kids from two-thirds of the way through the previous film.[nb]It would be like a scene that I think was ultimately cut from time-travel movie Time After Time, in which HG Wells is asked what music he likes and says "Anything but Chinese." It was a reference to a scene much earlier in which he has to listen to a Chinese guy playing punk rock music on a ghettoblaster. Tests suggested the two incidents happen so far apart, the payoff of him not liking Chinese music lacked meaning or impact.[/nb]

[Dusty Substance]

.[nb]It would be like a scene that I think was ultimately cut from time-travel movie Time After Time, in which HG Wells is asked what music he likes and says "Anything but Chinese." It was a reference to a scene much earlier in which he has to listen to a Chinese guy playing punk rock music on a ghettoblaster. Tests suggested the two incidents happen so far apart, the payoff of him not liking Chinese music lacked meaning or impact.[/nb]

I flipping LOVE Time After Time but didn't know about that. Seems like Nicholas Meyer must have reworked that scene into the script for Star Trek IV with the guy playing a boombox on the tram.

[mothman]

You're exactly right!

[Wonderful Butternut]

I have no time for this. Imagine expecting a character to be totally unchanged by the intervening thirty years, seeing the future he fought for come under threat and his own nephew idolise Darth Vader and turn to the Dark Side.

I find criticism of Bitter Old Man Luke especially perplexing as it's about the only bloody thing that works in the entire sequel trilogy.

[phantom_power]

I can see why it might upset people as in some ways it negates the victories of the original films to see his life turn out like that. It is like the last Halloween film that showed Laurie Stroud had turned into a mentally unstable shut-in. It takes a shine off her survival.

Taken to the extreme it is like when Hicks dies offscreen between Aliens and Alien 3. It makes all that fighting to survive in the former film seem a bit pointless

Saying that though, it was a perfectly valid artistic decision so fuck 'em

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

I can see why it might upset people as in some ways it negates the victories of the original films to see his life turn out like that.

I mean, A New Evil Has Arisen in the form of whatever the new Empire called itself. The victories of the original films are already negated.

[phantom_power]

But these things always feel more emotive when it is dealing with specific, beloved characters. I am not saying they are right to overlook the reasons behind it. Just that I can see where the impulse is coming from

[mothman]

It's almost a subconscious thing. Few if us were actively thinking "Luke will become a grand elder statesman of a new and reinvigorated Republic, marry Mara Jade, have lots of little Jedi and live happily ever after" but it's what we all assumed on some level. So when the 'reality' turns out to be "Luke will see all his efforts come to naught and withdraw from public view embittered and disillusioned because - oh, and spoiler alert for the next five years IRL, by the way - it turns out most people really like being ruled by fascists."

[Ian Benson]

Rian Johnson could have just stuck with the explanation offered by the dialogue in The Force Awakens...

This would be super dumb. How would it work? Luke trains Ben Solo, Ben Solo then turns to the dark side, the baddies rise again, and Luke goes "Seeya!" and fucks off to find the first Jedi temple. The whole map thing negates it, since it suggests that Luke hasn't moved from that planet in a while, so isn't really searching for anything, unless we say that he's at the location of the first Jedi temple at the end of TFA/start of TLJ, which just creates more problems. What would be so amazing about the first Jedi temple ("the first Jedi temple" gets funnier to me each time I type it out) that would justify Luke turning his back on absolutely everyone for ages (especially given that I presume in this scenario he would still somehow be OT Luke personality-wise, like a crazy person, maybe with dyed blonde hair and the exact same clothes he had on at the end of ROTJ)?

Luke doesn't become shit until Rise of Skywalker, when his force ghost seemingly gets possessed by the worst Star Wars fans on earth and he stops just shy of sucking off a lightsaber.

[St_Eddie]

Presumably the idea was that Luke went in searchh of the first Jedi temple because he believed that it may contain the answer on how to bring down Snoke/The First Order.

The whole map thing negates it, since it suggests that Luke hasn't moved from that planet in a while, so isn't really searching for anything

The map completely negates the idea that Luke went into hiding and didn't want to be found in The Last Jedi.  The map suggests that Luke left it in the case his friends desperately needed his help whilst he was away researching the Jedi Temple.

[madhair60]

Posting to remove the St. Eddiet glitch

[Ian Benson]

The map suggests that Luke left it in the case his friends desperately needed his help whilst he was away researching the Jedi Temple.

But why wouldn't he just know that though? If he's some kind of super Jedi in this version, why would he need people to physically come and tell him that his friends desperately need his help, and why would he make going about this so difficult and costly for them? The whole map thing is odd any way you slice it but, like I've said, this approach makes Luke look like he's turned weird and stupid. And then what would be the super secret, impossible-to-figure-out way to bring down Snoke and the first order? It presumably can't be "use ships and guns and lightsabers."

[St_Eddie]

But why wouldn't he just know that though? If he's some kind of super Jedi in this version, why would he need people to physically come and tell him that his friends desperately need his help, and why would he make going about this so difficult and costly for them? The whole map thing is odd any way you slice it but, like I've said, this approach makes Luke look like he's turned weird and stupid. And then what would be the super secret, impossible-to-figure-out way to bring down Snoke and the first order? It presumably can't be "use ships and guns and lightsabers."

I'm not defending the whole map element from The Force Awakens.  It's fucking stupid and nonsensical.  I'm simply saying that The Last Jedi made it even more nonsensical.

[Alberon]

I've said it before - the worst problem the sequel trilogy has is that it isn't a trilogy. It's three films pulling in all directions.

The original trilogy was never planned out at the start, but they built on what the previous film had done, not swept the previous installment into the bin and headed off on it's own path.

And, as mentioned up the thread, it still does bug me that the sequel trilogy effectively does no world building. There's the First Order, there's the resistance. How they got there or what is going on in the rest of the Star Wars universe doesn't matter. Pew pew pew! It's inept. Thirty fucking seconds of dialogue would have been enough without going all prequel-style turgidness.

[Dusty Substance]

The worst problem the sequel trilogy has is that it isn't a trilogy. It's three films pulling in all directions.

Nailed it, mate.

After the massive success of the mapped out Marvel Cinematic Universe, it's totally baffling that Disney didn't use the same formula for Star Wars and plan it out in advance - Just three films instead of the 15 or so MCU films at the release of Force Awakens.

Looks like Star Wars is going to exist mostly in TV form for the next few years, after the success of The Manadalorian, but it's only a matter of time before we get Episodes X-XII.

[mothman]

I realise that even just obliquely mentioning The Film That Shall Not Be Named will be enough to send Eddie off into a slathering rage, but I wonder whether ep. 8 might have a better rep if some of the ideas it introduced had been expanded on in ep. 9 instead of being mostly dropped or ignored? It wouldn't negate the problems it had, but still.

... that said, it appears 8 is getting a bit of a reappraisal given how bad 9 is, bit of a missed opportunity to many...

[St_Eddie]

I realise that even just obliquely mentioning The Film That Shall Not Be Named will be enough to send Eddie off into a slathering rage...

Or I perhaps ought to be allowed to express myself and my own opinions without constant snark and shade being thrown my way for doing so...

[mothman]

Jeez, lighten up already. Nobody's told you that you can't have your opinions. And if we find it amusing and a little bit endearing how much you lay into this film, then so what?

[madhair60]

what is your opinion of The Last Jedi anyway

[chveik]

i really don't understand fandom

[greenman]

Nailed it, mate.

After the massive success of the mapped out Marvel Cinematic Universe, it's totally baffling that Disney didn't use the same formula for Star Wars and plan it out in advance - Just three films instead of the 15 or so MCU films at the release of Force Awakens.

Looks like Star Wars is going to exist mostly in TV form for the next few years, after the success of The Manadalorian, but it's only a matter of time before we get Episodes X-XII.

I'm guessing with the vast amount paid for the franchise they wanted a fast return and looked to Abrams Trek franchise as a model to get it based more on nostalgia.

Force Awakens doing such vast numbers probably confirmed to them they'd taken the right direction but really I think that can be put down to the buildup of said nostalgia which even Lucas's prequels hadn't fully tapped into lacking many original characters and having a rather less familiar setting.

[phantom_power]

I realise that even just obliquely mentioning The Film That Shall Not Be Named will be enough to send Eddie off into a slathering rage, but I wonder whether ep. 8 might have a better rep if some of the ideas it introduced had been expanded on in ep. 9 instead of being mostly dropped or ignored? It wouldn't negate the problems it had, but still.

... that said, it appears 8 is getting a bit of a reappraisal given how bad 9 is, bit of a missed opportunity to many...

I think this is true. Disney pretty much threw Johnson under the bus after giving him free rein to try and move the films in a different direction. They shit themselves at some of the reactions to the film and tried to course correct it to satisfy the fans.

There is nothing inherently wrong about fan service. Done well it can give you a cinematic experience like no other. The end of Infinity War and Endgame are full of great crowd-pleasing moments that had me internally cheering. The difference is that the people who created those films understood what made those characters good and how to organically weave those moments into the story, and there was enough heavy lifting done with plotting and characterisation beforehand to make those scenes work. RoS just threw random bits of "the fans will love this" into the mix in the hope that it would work.

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

And, as mentioned up the thread, it still does bug me that the sequel trilogy effectively does no world building. There's the First Order, there's the resistance. How they got there or what is going on in the rest of the Star Wars universe doesn't matter. Pew pew pew! It's inept. Thirty fucking seconds of dialogue would have been enough without going all prequel-style turgidness.

You see, I thought the whole thing about the casino planet full of rich bastards and the arms dealer Finn and Rose meet was at least an attempt to address that. People profiting off perpetual war and so forth. But I can't blame Rian Johnson for not doing more since JJ started off the trilogy with IT'S LIKE EPISODE IV BUT BIGGER.

i really don't understand fandom

There is nothing inherently wrong about fan service. Done well it can give you a cinematic experience like no other. The end of Infinity War and Endgame are full of great crowd-pleasing moments that had me internally cheering. The difference is that the people who created those films understood what made those characters good and how to organically weave those moments into the story, and there was enough heavy lifting done with plotting and characterisation beforehand to make those scenes work. RoS just threw random bits of "the fans will love this" into the mix in the hope that it would work.

I've been in various online fandoms over the past 21[nb]why is it 21 why has the internet been around this long why why why when did I get old[/nb] years and there will always be people who bitch and moan about the latest instalment of a franchise. The difference now is that creators take too much notice of fans and do stupid things, like write a movie to please an overly vocal minority who took the last movie so seriously they hounded an actor off social media.

And that's the other problem - social fucking media. It used to be that if you wanted to Let A Creator Know How You Feel, you had to corner them at a convention where everyone could see what a boundary-stomping embarrassment to the fandom you were. Now you just go on Twitter and @ them repeatedly about how they're pure evil, and so will twenty of your fellow fans, and so will another hundred trolls and shitposters in it for keks.