Topic: Star Wars: A New Dope

[St_Eddie]

Patrick Swayze turned into a ghost and he could move stuff.

You're missing the point.  I never said that no fiction has ever had a ghost interact with the physical world, nor that no fiction should ever do so.  The movie Ghost follows its own internal logic and that's fine.  Whereas the Force Ghosts in the original trilogy were never shown as being unable to interact with the physical world.  The sequel trilogy broke those established rules and fucked it up because if Force Ghosts can interact with the physical world, then why don't they help the protagonists to fight the antagonists?  Why doesn't Ghost-Luke wield a lightsaber against Snoke or Palpatine, whilst Ghost-Yoda backs him up by striking them with force-lightning?

[Dusty Substance]

why don't they help the protagonists to fight the antagonists?  Why doesn't Ghost-Luke wield a lightsaber against Snoke or Palpatine, whilst Ghost-Yoda backs him up by striking them with force-lightning?

After Yoda's return on TLJ, I thought they might go for a full-on ghost battle between all the dead Jedi and dead Sith at the climax of TROS.

[Ian Benson]

Isn't there a bit in Scrooged where one of the ghosts passes through a door and then Bill Murray goes to follow them but crashes into the door? I guess Murray's not technically a ghost though, he just temporarily has some ghost abilities. But then there's the bit where one of the other ghosts beats up Bill Murray AND also the bit where Bill Murray shoots at the ghost of his old boss and then the ghost has a drink and the drink comes out of the bullet holes. And this is from Charles Dickens, pretty much the inventor of ghosts as far as I know.

Also my friend once saw a ghost calm down a living horse by stroking it, pretty hard to do if you can't interact with the physical world.

[phantom_power]

You're missing the point.  I never said that no fiction has ever had a ghost interact with the physical world, nor that no fiction should ever do so.  The movie Ghost follows its own internal logic and that's fine.  Whereas the Force Ghosts in the original trilogy were never shown as being unable to interact with the physical world.  The sequel trilogy broke those established rules and fucked it up because if Force Ghosts can interact with the physical world, then why don't they help the protagonists to fight the antagonists?  Why doesn't Ghost-Luke wield a lightsaber against Snoke or Palpatine, whilst Ghost-Yoda backs him up by striking them with force-lightning?

The force ghosts in the original trilogy make up about 3 minutes of screen time and stand around talking for all of that. I am not sure you can extrapolate a whole lore from that. There are stories about ghosts where they can have some minor interaction with the physical world but nothing for too long or too much. It could be like that. There is too little evidence to say what is and isn't possible for a force ghost to do

Fucking hell, this lockdown is hitting hard

[St_Eddie]

Isn't there a bit in Scrooged where one of the ghosts passes through a door and then Bill Murray goes to follow them but crashes into the door? I guess Murray's not technically a ghost though, he just temporarily has some ghost abilities. But then there's the bit where one of the other ghosts beats up Bill Murray AND also the bit where Bill Murray shoots at the ghost of his old boss and then the ghost has a drink and the drink comes out of the bullet holes. And this is from Charles Dickens, pretty much the inventor of ghosts as far as I know.

Also my friend once saw a ghost calm down a living horse by stroking it, pretty hard to do if you can't interact with the physical world.

I know that you're being facetious, but to reiterate; other works of fiction can abide by their own internal logic.  We're not talking about other works of fiction, we're talking about Star Wars.  Trying to say "a ghost interacted with the physical world in this other movie" is a whataboutism and doesn't address the logical flaw that the sequel trilogy created by altering what Force Ghosts were depicted as being able to do.

The force ghosts in the original trilogy make up about 3 minutes of screen time and stand around talking for all of that. I am not sure you can extrapolate a whole lore from that. There are stories about ghosts where they can have some minor interaction with the physical world but nothing for too long or too much. It could be like that. There is too little evidence to say what is and isn't possible for a force ghost to do

The point is that we never saw a Force Ghost interact with the physical world in the original trilogy and as such it was never an issue as to why they didn't help the protagonists in fighting the antagonists.  The sequel trilogy decides to show us that Force Ghosts can both interact with the physical world (including grabbing lightsabers and summoning lightning) and cause physical pain to others (Ghost-Yoda hitting Luke on the head with his stick), hence it raises the question of why they never helped the protagonists to fight the antagonists and why they never did so in the original trilogy either.

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

look clearly it's unreasonable to decide that ghosts made up of the Force, an intangible power that can move physical objects, can suddenly interact with physical objects

[St_Eddie]

So without pulling an explanation out of thin air and instead going by what was actually depicted within the movies, why don't they help to fight the bad guys?  Quit skirting around the issue.  My entire argument is that by showing them as being able to interact with the physical world, it introduces a failure in logic within the narrative.  A failure in logic which wouldn't exist had the writers of the sequel trilogy not haphazardly chosen to alter what Force Ghosts can and cannot do for no good reason.

Why did we need to see Ghost-Yoda hit Luke on the head with a stick?  Why did we need to see him summon lightning to destroy the tree, given that Rey took the sacred Jedi texts with her anyway?  What does this add to the narrative?  How does it serve the story and the overall lore of Star Wars?  All that it serves to do is to break the series' own internal logic.

[Retinend]

For those Cabbers who might not be aware, I highly recommend the Star Wars videos from master editors Auralnauts. Their latest vid retcons a bunch of stuff in Return Of The Jedi so that the sequels make sense: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2zRFPeEDS0

This is weird because I keep expecting them to say funny stuff but they never do, and then I realize it isn't supposed to be funny. OR is it?

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

Well if anyone is an authority on ghosts' abilities, it would be phantom_power.

Didn't Yoda say that Liam Neeson invented being a ghost? Maybe they developed it over the years.

Leaving aside the physical interaction thing, why didn't Obi Wan's ghost hang around and distract Vader and the Emperor all the time?

Near the start of The Phantom Menace, the two jedi use super speed to escape the baddie robots. They were never established as having this power before and they never use it again when it would be useful (like when they're engaged in a fight to the death and one of them gets trapped behind a load of rhythmically opening forcefields).

[St_Eddie]

Didn't Yoda say that Liam Neeson invented being a ghost? Maybe they developed it over the years.

This is what I referred earlier to as "pulling an explanation out of thin air".  Don't write the movie for them.

Leaving aside the physical interaction thing, why didn't Obi Wan's ghost hang around and distract Vader and the Emperor all the time?

Near the start of The Phantom Menace, the two jedi use super speed to escape the baddie robots. They were never established as having this power before and they never use it again when it would be useful (like when they're embroiled in a fight to the death and one of them gets trapped behind a load of rhythmically opening forcefields).

More whataboutisms, which by their very nature are put forward in an attempt to excuse and distract from the issue at hand.

[St_Eddie]

It's pretty obvious what's going on here.  I've raised a completely valid flaw within the sequel trilogy but nobody wants to admit it because they happen to like The Last Jedi; the very movie which introduced this flaw to begin with.  Your egos are getting in the way of being intellectually honest.  If the flaw had been first introduced within The Rise of Skywalker (with Ghost-Luke grabbing the lightsaber), I somehow doubt that you'd all be falling over yourselves to make excuses for it.

[Kelvin]

It's pretty obvious what's going on here.  I've raised a completely valid flaw within the sequel trilogy but nobody wants to admit it because they happen to like The Last Jedi; the very movie which introduced this flaw to begin with.  Your egos are getting in the way of being intellectually honest.  If the flaw had been first introduced within The Rise of Skywalker (with Ghost-Luke grabbing the lightsaber), I somehow doubt that you'd all be falling over yourselves to make excuses for it.

Alternatively, you've identified a minor nitpick and are banging on about it because you hate the film.

In answer to your question; use your imagination. Maybe the force ghosts have moved beyond physically fighting battles. Maybe they're closely tied to other Jedis, and so couldn't appear in a battle. Maybe they can't appear around strong darkside users. Maybe strong darkside users could easily disperse a spirit Jedi.

That's not writing the story for them, it's just making some logical leaps based on what we know about the universe. It's just a boring way to discuss films.

[phantom_power]

It's pretty obvious what's going on here.  I've raised a completely valid flaw within the sequel trilogy but nobody wants to admit it because they happen to like The Last Jedi; the very movie which introduced this flaw to begin with.  Your egos are getting in the way of being intellectually honest.  If the flaw had been first introduced within The Rise of Skywalker (with Ghost-Luke grabbing the lightsaber), I somehow doubt that you'd all be falling over yourselves to make excuses for it.

You've got me bang to rights. It is definitely that and not that you made a minor point that I couldn't care much about either way and am just giving some possibility of an explanation to pass the time during a boring work day

[St_Eddie]

Alternatively, you've identified a minor nitpick and are banging on about it because you hate the film.

It is a relatively minor issue, in a movie full of issues, but you've essentially just admitted that you're unable to actually explain the issue.  So, therefore my argument is valid.

In answer to your question; use your imagination. Maybe the force ghosts have moved beyond physically fighting battles. Maybe they're closely tied to other Jedis, and so couldn't appear in a battle. Maybe they can't appear around strong darkside users. Maybe strong darkside users could easily disperse a spirit Jedi.

That's not writing the story for them, it's just making some logical leaps based on what we know about the universe.

That is writing the story for them.  They could have had a quick line in the movie giving an explanation, but they didn't.  Therefore, it's an issue.

[Kelvin]

but you've essentially just admitted that you're unable to actually explain the issue.

No, I don't believe it needs a line in the film, because the logical explanations are so obvious and so numerous that it would be redundant. 

That is writing the story for them.  They could have had a quick line in the movie giving an explanation, but they didn't.  Therefore, it's an issue.

I wouldn't expect them to explain such a trivial issue, with such easy to imagine answers. 

[Kelvin]

It's the kind of thing you joke about with your mates in the pub afterwards, not a serious "Gotcha" moment, proving how shit the film is.

[Bad Ambassador]

This is edging close to "debate me!" territory.

In Scrooged, it seems that ghosts are solid unless they choose not to be, since the GoCP passes through a door and Frank's boss pushes his arm through a plate glass window, but gets ambushed by Frank and repeatedly shot. Or you can just handwave it all away as being supernatural stuff that isn't really relevant to the plot. Frank's office is magically put back together again after his first visitation, and as the GoCP says about visits to the past, present and future, "it's not live, it's like a rerun".

Donald Bellisario had a rule regarding Quantum Leap, which was not to examine the fine points of minor details too closely if they don't actually impact on the story or characters. This was largely an excuse to get away with the nonsensical time travel element of the series, which enabled the strong human drama elements. If you're focussing on how time travel works in the series, you're looking at the wrong thing. It's there as a convenience to facilitate the rest of the concept, and is not meant to be scrutinised so closely.

It's the same with a Force ghost suddenly able to interact with its environment. You're not expected to examine it in such forensic detail, and if you are, you're losing focus on what the film wants you to notice.

[Dex Sawash]

This is weird because I keep expecting them to say funny stuff but they never do, and then I realize it isn't supposed to be funny. OR is it?

I did laugh at Billy Dee Williams talking dirty with L3 force ghost

[phantom_power]

the instances of force ghost interaction with the physical world are so minor and tangential to the plot that it would be weirder if they did address it in the context of lore than the fact that they don't

[St_Eddie]

This is edging close to "debate me!" territory.

In Scrooged, it seems that ghosts are solid unless they choose not to be, since the GoCP passes through a door and Frank's boss pushes his arm through a plate glass window, but gets ambushed by Frank and repeatedly shot. Or you can just handwave it all away as being supernatural stuff that isn't really relevant to the plot. Frank's office is magically put back together again after his first visitation, and as the GoCP says about visits to the past, present and future, "it's not live, it's like a rerun".

Donald Bellisario had a rule regarding Quantum Leap, which was not to examine the fine points of minor details too closely if they don't actually impact on the story or characters. This was largely an excuse to get away with the nonsensical time travel element of the series, which enabled the strong human drama elements. If you're focussing on how time travel works in the series, you're looking at the wrong thing. It's there as a convenience to facilitate the rest of the concept, and is not meant to be scrutinised so closely.

It's the same with a Force ghost suddenly able to interact with its environment. You're not expected to examine it in such forensic detail, and if you are, you're losing focus on what the film wants you to notice.

So I'm watching the movie wrong?  It's my fault that I was continually taken out of the movie because my brain was noticing things which didn't make sense?

[Ian Benson]

Force ghosts were basically invented so Alec Guinness could be in Empire. Luke definitely had the hots for Leia in Star Wars and Empire because it wasn't decided that they were siblings yet. Treating the OT/PT as some kind of meticulously mapped-out bible that establishes all of the rules in perpetuity throughout the universe is weird, reductive and boooooooooooooooooooooooooooring. I similarly can't get on board with the idea that absolutely everything has to be explained; feel like this is being used as a criticism in this instance because one didn't like the film (and would absolutely be given a free pass elsewhere).

[Bad Ambassador]

So I'm watching the movie wrong?  It's my fault that I was continually taken out of the movie because my brain was noticing things which didn't make sense?

I've found the quote for your headstone.

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

Maybe they can only manifest around a Skywalker or a Palpatine since midichlorian counts are what determine Force ability now. Maybe they also have to be "called" into the world when their apprentice is at an all is lost moment. Maybe, given that the Jedi Order are perfectly happy to let slavery go on and basically act as enforcers for the Old Republic, their personal philosophy means they don't interfere beyond providing words of wisdom to their former students.

Or maybe you're right St Bob and this is proof that Rian Johnson and the cabal of feminazis running Star Wars have ruined it for all time.

[Kermit the Frog]

So I'm watching the movie wrong?  It's my fault that I was continually taken out of the movie because my brain was noticing things which didn't make sense?

yes

[Kermit the Frog]

To be clear, I do think that The Last Jedi is a bad film, but not for the reasons being outlined, and I couldn't imagine watching and interpreting a film in that kind of hyper literal logic pedant way. That mindset seems like the enemy of art. The enemy of symbolism, of metaphor, of imagination, of mythos. To only invest in those things if they are clearly, logically, topographically delineated? No sir, can't get behind the idea.

[St_Eddie]

That mindset seems like the enemy of art. The enemy of symbolism, of metaphor, of imagination, of mythos.

So in storytelling, internal logic and consistency are irrelevant?  In other words, anything goes?

You can have symbolism and metaphors alongside a narrative which makes logical sense.  It's what many of the greatest films ever made manage to do.  Heck it's what even some of the shittiest films ever made manage to do.  It's what The Last Jedi fails to do.

[Kermit the Frog]

And indeed, I would venture, that some of the greatest films ever made also have symbolism and metaphor alongside a narrative that doesn't make strict logical sense. Because what really matters is meaning and resonance, an aesthetic richness, and they don't always arise from logic, in fact quite often rigourous logic stifles them

[bgmnts]

Re force ghosts.

I assume its down to the power of the force wielder. Not every force user can pull an x wing out of a swamp with ease like yoda can, so maybe each force ghost has a different level of interaction with life.

Yoda is mega so can summon storms and shit whereas Obi Wan is middling at best so can just about sit comfortably on a log as per his agreed contract and deliver crap dialogue.

[Old Nehamkin]

Can't believe Rian Johnson violated the famously airtight internal logic of Star Wars.

[St_Eddie]

And indeed, I would venture, that some of the greatest films ever made also have symbolism and metaphor alongside a narrative that doesn't make strict logical sense.

I agree when it comes to art pieces which purposefully don't focus on narrative, such as the works of David Lynch.  A popcorn munching action flick which is part of a long running populist series and very much focuses on the narrative, not so much.