Star Wars: A New Dope

[St_Eddie]

Can't believe Rian Johnson violated the famously airtight internal logic of Star Wars.

Nobody is claiming that the original trilogy was airtight in terms of internal logic or that they were perfect movies, least of all myself.  However, trying to excuse poor writing in the sequel trilogy by citing the flaws of the original trilogy is a whataboutism and a strawman argument.

[Kermit the Frog]

I agree when it comes to art pieces which purposefully don't focus on narrative, such as the works of David Lynch.  A popcorn munching action flick which is part of a long running populist series and very much focuses on the narrative, not so much.

Sorry, can't get behind that. That is arbitrary categorisation. Star Wars is a fantasy, a collection of images that bend reality. It can also be art. There is no reason why Lynch should enjoy a special compartment of his own. If you've seen a Hong Kong action film you'll know that great populist films didn't need to be especially rigourous with their narrative logic to still reach wide popular appreciation. These are fake rules, that exist nowhere.

[madhair60]

It's consistent with your take on Room 237; where you see mentally filling in any narrative crevices/perceived mistakes as "writing the film for them" or just making excuses, others are seeing something different and maybe more trivial.

I have a friend who really hates the bit in The Dark Knight Rises where Bruce escapes the pit and somehow makes his way back to Gotham, but it doesn't bother me at all; yes, he's had his money stolen, but there are so many ways that he could have made it back (flyer miles, friends in high places, general clout) that it rolls right off my back.

It's mostly interesting to me because I find it incredulous that my pal could possibly take issue with something that seems like such small potatoes to me, but this evidences that he's not alone and this is a more common perspective than I thought.

[frajer]

I know I can't enjoy a film if there isn't a line inserted explaining how anyone can do anything. It's tell not show, people.

[chveik]

Sorry, can't get behind that. That is arbitrary categorisation. Star Wars is a fantasy, a collection of images that bend reality. It can also be art. There is no reason why Lynch should enjoy a special compartment of his own. If you've seen a Hong Kong action film you'll know that great populist films didn't need to be especially rigourous with their narrative logic to still reach wide popular appreciation. These are fake rules, that exist nowhere.

heh. the internal logic of the zu warriors franchise

[bgmnts]

St Eddie don't you enjoy old school adventure games? They sort of warp logic and make no sense at times right?

[madhair60]

St Eddie don't you enjoy old school adventure games? They sort of warp logic and make no sense at times right?

Not the good ones.

[Bad Ambassador]

No one tell him about UNIT dating.

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

A popcorn munching action flick

*proceeds to wank furiously about how a throwaway moment inserted for the purposes of comic relief proves the entire movie is bad and wrong and anyone who doesn't agree with this view is a monstrous hypocrite*

[Kermit the Frog]

heh. the internal logic of the zu warriors franchise

Haha yes, maybe the most confusing films I've ever seen, but pure excitement, pure spectacle.

[St_Eddie]

St Eddie don't you enjoy old school adventure games? They sort of warp logic and make no sense at times right?

Yes, they often do and those games can be validly criticised for such.  Unlike some here, I am able to recognise and acknowledge when things I like are flawed.  It's no skin off my nose if someone doesn't care for or criticises something which I personally enjoy, much less when those criticisms are valid ones, "nitpicking" (a dismissive term which I despise) or otherwise.

[Dex Sawash]

Choosing to not act is a thing Yoda and Obiwan do when alive, might the ghosts withhold aid selectively?

Note- dgaf either way

[St_Eddie]

Choosing to not act is a thing Yoda and Obiwan do when alive, might the ghosts withhold aid selectively?

They do take action in both the prequel and original trilogies.  For example, Yoda confronts both Count Dooku and Palaptine in the prequels and Obi-Wan both deactivates the tractor beam and confronts Darth Vader onboard the Death Star in A New Hope.

I assume that you're referring to the scene where Yoda specifically tried to dissuade Luke from flying to Bespin in order to try and save his friends, which he did because he felt that Luke was not yet ready to face Vader (which he wasn't).  Ghost-Obi-Wan didn't try to help because... well, he's a ghost.  Which is the entire issue with the sequel trilogy's handling of Force Ghosts; it suggests that Obi-Wan could have helped.

[Kermit the Frog]

Happy to admit that Jackie Chan's 'Police Story' is narratively flawed. Do I wish they had devoted any more of the film's runtime to ironing out those flaws instead of primarily focusing on some of the most death-defying yet unbelievably graceful action set pieces ever put on film? Absolutely not.

[madhair60]

I think it's a biiiig stretch to even call this a "flaw", let alone imply that anyone defending it is just too proud to criticise TLJ.

[Dex Sawash]

They do take action in both the prequel and original trilogies.  For example, Yoda confronts both Count Dooku and Palaptine in the prequels and Obi-Wan both deactivates the tractor beam and confronts Darth Vader onboard the Death Star in A New Hope.

I assume that you're referring to the scene where Yoda specifically tried to dissuade Luke from flying to Bespin in order to try and save his friends, which he did because he felt that Luke was not yet ready to face Vader (which he wasn't).  Ghost-Obi-Wan didn't try to help because... well, he's a ghost.  Which is the entire issue with the sequel trilogy's handling of Force Ghosts; it suggests that Obi-Wan could have helped.

When they stop fighting (and "die").

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

I'm pretty sure everyone has been open about The Last Jedi beginning flawed.

[St_Eddie]

I'm pretty sure everyone has been open about The Last Jedi beginning flawed.

Are they open about it being middle and end flawed too?  Ahhhhhhhhhhh

[Dusty Substance]

I'm pretty sure everyone has been open about The Last Jedi beginning flawed.

Ghost logic aside, what else about The Last Jedi do Cabbers think was flawed?

Due to the backlash from so-called Star Wars man babies, it became a difficult film to criticize, as I didn't want to be bracketed in with the toxic cunts who are still @-ing Rian Johnson on Twitter, and the particularly hateful reaction Kelly Marie Tran received.

Personally, even after three years since it was released, I'm still fully undecided if I like it or not. It's crazy that Lucasfilm allowed him to to exactly anything he wanted. There may have been some guidance from the execs, but Johnson is the sole credited writer and in every interview he's given he's talked about having full creative reign.

Things I like about TLJ:

The throne room fight
Adam Driver
The absence of a super-weapon, and the overall attempt at doing something different
The visuals/cinematography
Eddie Hitler as a First Order officer
The continuing world-building (Salt planet, casino planet)
It's Star Wars - Lightsabres and TIE-fighters will never not be awesome


Things I don't like about TLJ:

The First Order not being able to shoot the resistance because they're "too small"
The clunky CGI horse things on the Casino Planet
Leia flying in outer space
That it takes place immediately after TFA
Killing off Luke
The final few seconds with the broom kid


Things I'm undecided about TLJ:

Kooky old Luke
Killing off Snoke (this really messed up the following film)
The Holdo manoeuvrer (it looked gorgeous, but it raises too many questions)
Rose saving Finn from sacrificing himself
Luke's force projection

[mothman]

What is it about the kid at the end you don't like? What it represents or how it was executed?

[Kelvin]

Ghost logic aside, what else about The Last Jedi do Cabbers think was flawed?

I think TLJ's two biggest problems are the diversion to the Casino planet, and the film's overall sense of humour, which varies from infantile prequel stuff, like the opera singing alien and Chewie/porg scenes, to MCU/Whedon-esque "real-world" humour, like the awful "Your Mother" scene at the start, and the stuff with them getting a ticket for where they park.

There's other stuff of course, certain inconsistencies, certain leaps in logic. But nothing which wouldn't matter too much if you were being swept up in the momentum of the film. For me, the pacing issues caused by the Casino, and that overall inappropriate tone, are what detract most from the film's many qualities.   

[samadriel]

It needed a few more drafts, and although it's easily the best of the recent trilogy, the casino part needs serious work, and it would have been sooo much better if Rey had joined Kylo Ren (just before they split up, KR completely rules that out by saying he wants to wipe out everyone, including Rey's friends, but that could've been rewritten to make the Dark Side a more seductive prospect). The more fundamental fault isn't with Johnson, though, it's with the incredible - simply incredible! - failure to plan out the whole trilogy before it was made.

[thecuriousorange]

Grumpy Luke being pretty much a different character to the one fans longed to see back punctured the whole thing.

[St_Eddie]

I think TLJ's two biggest problems are the diversion to the Casino planet, and the film's overall sense of humour, which varies from infantile prequel stuff, like the opera singing alien and Chewie/porg scenes, to MCU/Whedon-esque "real-world" humour, like the awful "Your Mother" scene at the start, and the stuff with them getting a ticket for where they park.

There's other stuff of course, certain inconsistencies, certain leaps in logic. But nothing which wouldn't matter too much if you were being swept up in the momentum of the film. For me, the pacing issues caused by the Casino, and that overall inappropriate tone, are what detract most from the film's many qualities.   

I fully endorse this post.

[Kelvin]

Grumpy Luke being pretty much a different character to the one fans longed to see back punctured the whole thing.

I reckon the stuff with Luke is probably the best - and only genuinely great - thing about the Disney trilogy. It's certainly the most interesting thing about it. 

[greenman]

I reckon the stuff with Luke is probably the best - and only genuinely great - thing about the Disney trilogy. It's certainly the most interesting thing about it.

I do think theres still a big problem in that the film like Force Awakens gets confused between the older characters becoming mentors for the new ones and actually driving the drama themselves and as a result Luke really doesn't get as much time spent on his motivation as he should, the decision to kill his nephew in his sleep being setup by a quick flashback monolog isn't nearly enough for me.

I think you can see the Luke/Rey/Kylo plot does have something too it though, not close to fully realised but there is some reason for the film to exist beyond making money unlike the two Abrams films.

[Kelvin]

...Luke really doesn't get as much time spent on his motivation as he should, the decision to kill his nephew in his sleep being setup by a quick flashback monolog isn't nearly enough for me.

The stuff with Kylo/Han is even worse. There's no context and no background. When Kylo kills him on the bridge, we don't care because we have the slightest inkling of what tensions there might have been between them. We only care because it's Han Solo from our favourite films getting killed. It's not even that Han was an absent father, as he only left Leia after Kylo fucked off. It's terrible storytelling. 

[Chedney Honks]

Haha yes, maybe the most confusing films I've ever seen, but pure excitement, pure spectacle.

I felt like I had just downed a pint of Skittles watching it, totally unique energy, like a kid excitedly making up a story being filmed in front of my eyes. Amazing stuff.

[greenman]

The stuff with Kylo/Han is even worse. There's no context and no background. When Kylo kills him on the bridge, we don't care because we have the slightest inkling of what tensions there might have been between them. We only care because it's Han Solo from our favourite films getting killed. It's not even that Han was an absent father, as he only left Leia after Kylo fucked off. It's terrible storytelling.

I would argue thats the real issue with Rey being a Mary Sue, because Abrams can't be bothered to focus on building a strong dramatic character the film actually ends up being about Han, but a cheap reversion to the earlier Han minus the wisdom gained in the originals with a different ending that depends almost entirely on our attachment to the originals to sell.

Johnson to his credit does spend a bit more time on Rey and she does get a bit of substance but even that gets pretty much flushed away by the end of the film.

[Ant Farm Keyboard]

I do think theres still a big problem in that the film like Force Awakens gets confused between the older characters becoming mentors for the new ones and actually driving the drama themselves and as a result Luke really doesn't get as much time spent on his motivation as he should, the decision to kill his nephew in his sleep being setup by a quick flashback monolog isn't nearly enough for me.

I think you can see the Luke/Rey/Kylo plot does have something too it though, not close to fully realised but there is some reason for the film to exist beyond making money unlike the two Abrams films.

There was a major problem that Michael Arndt faced when he started working on Episode VII and that he wasn't able to solve. Whenever Luke was implicated in the early attempts at writing a plot, there couldn't be any stakes, because Luke was now supposed to be extremely powerful. When JJ Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan took over (because Arndt worked too slowly), they had the same issues and kept on pushing Luke near the margins of the film, ultimately turning the story into a quest for Luke without finding a proper explanation for why he had vanished, ending the film on a cliffhanger.

There were major questions that were also not addressed. If Luke had felt through the Force that Leia and Han were in danger, why didn't he go back to their rescue?

Ultimately, because the writers for The Force Awakens hadn't found a proper explanation, it was up to Johnson to make the actual major choices. I'm not sure he could have made a coherent narrative decision that didn't imply Luke shutting himself away from the Force willingly.