Author Topic: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier  (Read 6459 times)

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2021, 12:41:49 AM »
The couples therapy seemed a bit early. It feels like they needed at least one more episode of being at loggerheads. Then again, it was quite a packed episode, so perhaps the plot is just going to be racing ahead.

So Bucky can't miss a single therapy session, but he can join in with military operations whenever the fancy takes him? His pardon has some strange terms.

Looks like the haves vs. the have nots is our big theme for the series. I wasn't expecting to see Isiah Bradley, or for the Flag Smashers[1] to be portrayed sympathetically (at least not so early on). I'm guessing they'll still end up being told they're wrong by series end. On the other hand, how is Sam meant to drape himself in the flag after that scene with the police?

 1. how do you smash a flag? It's made of cloth.

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2021, 06:53:25 AM »
On the other hand, how is Sam meant to drape himself in the flag after that scene with the police?
Isn't that the point of his arc in this? To go from 'how can a black man be Captain America when America is so racist[1]' to 'Captain America is an inspirational/aspirational icon so hell yeah!'

There was also an aspect of the show that jarred with the last 60 years of US TV - the heroes walk everywhere (when not flying). They don't jump in a car to get from one scene to the next and it's the bad guys who drive or are driven around.

I wasn't expecting to see  the Flag Smashers to be portrayed sympathetically (at least not so early on). I'm guessing they'll still end up being told they're wrong by series end[/spoiler].
My wife said the same thing, but I'm not sure that what we saw would have been seen sympathetically in US eyes or more 'communist' as it looks like another thread of this story is individualism vs collectivism/state control/fascism. I hope I'm wrong and they are meant to be seen sympathetically. I didn't work out whether they were taking the medicines to or from the refugee camps and can't be arsed to rewatch it to remove the ambiguity.
 1. while not pointing this out much more that they did in this episode so as not to lose too many viewers/piss off Disney

mothman

  • I don't know why
Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2021, 10:58:58 AM »
There could be an interesting post-lockdown post-pandemic analogy developing, regarding whether things should go back to exactly how they were before the Blip. And in that the flag-smashers can’t be said to be completely wrong really. I reckon what will happen is they will ultimately prove to be naive dupes, whose usefulness will be over once the series big bad, presumably Zemo having escaped from prison, is revealed.

There’s also something to be said about the contrast between how four superheroes (well, to varying degrees) engage the baddies in elaborate hand-to-hand combat and get nowhere, whereas one baddie gets summarily gunned down with machine-gun fire by soldiers later...

Shameless Custard

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Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2021, 11:29:26 AM »
Enjoying this so far. It has just the right mixture of action and talky scenes, and I really like Falcon/Mackie. He's very funny in interviews too, usually taking the piss out of Tom Holland

I don't mind Bucky, but they're not really doing much to make the viewer care about him.

Decent action so far, especially the fight on top of the trucks. Though how did the truck behind not see Bucky breaking into the one in front?

I like that they're beating DC to introduce a douchy version of Captain America. Cena's will seem a bit old hat by the time the new Suicide Squad comes out

Some of the jokey dialogue lands, some doesn't. It reminds me a bit of Lethal Weapon, but unfortunately Bucky doesn't have quite the needed charisma for it to truly gel with Mackie

4 episodes left, so I'm basically thinking of it as one long film. It's not as interesting or unique as WandaVision, but it's fun for what it is

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2021, 11:31:02 AM »
The couples therapy seemed a bit early. It feels like they needed at least one more episode of being at loggerheads. Then again, it was quite a packed episode, so perhaps the plot is just going to be racing ahead.
Maybe early in context of the show, but I would point out they were sniping at each other during their first scenes together in 'Civil War', five years ago.

I'm not sure if these Flagsmashers are supposed to be portrayed sympathetically - certainly I didn't feel much for them, given their stance appeared to be "wasn't life better when half of the world vanished?". Almost a "Thanos was right" cult. Presumably it was during the Blip that they got their doses of Supersoldier Serum as well as some training. I'm also guessing that this Power Broker bod rose to whatever influence/power they have during the Blip - clearly the Flagsmashers are terrified of them. My first guess was that it would be Zemo - still might be, despite him still apparently being in clink.

And I'm wondering if it's too obvious for me to think that Walker is bound for a huge fall, cracking up due to the pressures of carrying the shield. You'd also think they'd make some mention to Steve's whereabouts - the first episode made me think he'd died. Maybe he has, as you'd imagine when Walker was revealed to the press, he'd be on the phone to Sam to say "what's this shit?"

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2021, 12:58:21 PM »
The Flag Smashers certainly sounded like "Thanos was right" types in the first episode, although that was when the army bloke was describing them and we only really saw them as faceless brutes. I reckon they come across a lot more sympathetically in this one, between the bloke calling them Robin Hood, seeing them unmasked and emotional and hearing them describe their cause. Their talk of not going back to the status quo obviously resonates with Sam's experiences so far: being denied a loan and almost getting jacked by the cops.

It's your classic dramatic foils setup, with them as the polar opposites of New Cap, while Sam is somewhere in between. I assume the series will end with him taking up the shield and vowing to be a more egalitarian Captain America - Captain Planet, if you will.

Side note: Erin Kellyman played pretty much the exact same role in the Han Solo film. STAR WARS CROSSOVER CONFIRMED!

Dr Rock

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Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2021, 01:38:06 PM »
So Bucky can't miss a single therapy session, but he can join in with military operations whenever the fancy takes him? His pardon has some strange terms.

Turned out it was a fake reason, fake Cap arranged it to get them to him.

Shameless Custard

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Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #37 on: March 27, 2021, 02:00:04 PM »
Fake Cap is clearly being set up to either die or turn baddie.

I'm predicting episode 4, so they have two episodes for Falcon to save the day and become the real one

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2021, 03:10:51 PM »
Can't be bothered with this. They're just so uninteresting.

Dr Rock

  • The BEST of luck!
Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #39 on: March 27, 2021, 03:20:01 PM »
I'm really enjoying it, and it was one of the announced Marvel TV shows I was least interested in.

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #40 on: March 27, 2021, 03:22:48 PM »
Fake Cap is clearly being set up to either die or turn baddie.

I'm predicting episode 4, so they have two episodes for Falcon to save the day and become the real one
I can see him getting a dose of the serum but it just emphasising his worst aspects, like it did with the Red Skull. Probably conclude with him locked away in the same place Emil Blonsky is kept

Dr Rock

  • The BEST of luck!
Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #41 on: March 27, 2021, 04:05:57 PM »
How come both characters used to shoot guns but they don't have them any more? If they're not allowed now for some reason, Falcon still had deadly lasers and stuff in Redwing. And all Americans are allowed firearms anyway.

Dr Rock

  • The BEST of luck!
Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #42 on: March 27, 2021, 04:07:08 PM »
Also Tony Stark was a bit of a cunt not leaving each of the Avengers like a million dollars in his will.

Povidone

  • We wanted to try and raise awareness for Ashburton
Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #43 on: March 27, 2021, 08:12:42 PM »
I'm really enjoying it, and it was one of the announced Marvel TV shows I was least interested in.

I'm also finding this more enjoyable than I expected, probably  better than Wandavision at this point for me. I'm going against the grain here as well as I really like Bucky in this, his whole story throughout the MCU has been pretty compelling but this is the first time they've really explored it in any real depth. The two leads make a great double act but Sam is definitely the main focus, with Bucky being a strange combination of mentor and sidekick.

They did ramp things up almost too fast that second episode. I understand the tension between Happy Shopper Cap and the old guard but it was bizarre how quickly they cunted him off. Although Bucky's line later in the episode "things get pretty intense for you dont they?" seemed to suggest he had the guy pretty much sussed straight away.

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #44 on: March 27, 2021, 08:31:07 PM »
They did ramp things up almost too fast that second episode. I understand the tension between Happy Shopper Cap and the old guard but it was bizarre how quickly they cunted him off. Although Bucky's line later in the episode "things get pretty intense for you dont they?" seemed to suggest he had the guy pretty much sussed straight away.
Yes, I did like that line. Also the exchange with Sam, after Bucky shows off some stealth skills, that went something like:

"Spend a little time in Wakanda and now you're the White Panther."
"Actually, I was the White Wolf."
"<genuinely taken aback> Huh?"

kalowski

  • Maclunkey
Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #45 on: March 27, 2021, 09:29:50 PM »
No one seems to be mentioning the elephant in the room:.
This show has some of the worst dialogue on record. I can only assume the writers took the "Film clichés you want to fuck off" as a screenplay manual.

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #46 on: March 28, 2021, 10:58:30 AM »
I'm also finding this more enjoyable than I expected, probably  better than Wandavision at this point for me. I'm going against the grain here as well as I really like Bucky in this, his whole story throughout the MCU has been pretty compelling but this is the first time they've really explored it in any real depth. The two leads make a great double act but Sam is definitely the main focus, with Bucky being a strange combination of mentor and sidekick.

They did ramp things up almost too fast that second episode. I understand the tension between Happy Shopper Cap and the old guard but it was bizarre how quickly they cunted him off. Although Bucky's line later in the episode "things get pretty intense for you dont they?" seemed to suggest he had the guy pretty much sussed straight away.

Completely agree. I ultimately found WandaVision pretty bad, not living up to its potential and being stocked full of irritating characters. This being closer in tone to the Russo films is much more up my street, and like you, I think Stan is really underrated. His character and performance is on the dry / under stated side, particularly for the MCU. His scenes with the old Japanese man and Isaiah have been the best of the two episodes for me, the former in particular. He's a much better, more subtle actor than Mackie, though admittedly less obviously charismatic.

Some of the racism stuff is on the nose, and the forced humour a bit cringe, but overall it's a reminder of what I like about the best of the MCU, coming off WandaVision, which I was embarrassed to watch by the end of.

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #47 on: March 28, 2021, 03:15:55 PM »
I think the Flag-Smashers are definitely meant to be sympathetic, given their inspirations are Thanos and Zemo, who are both sympathetic villains where you can see their point of view if not their methods

TwinPeaks

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Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #48 on: March 29, 2021, 12:12:46 AM »
I think the Flag-Smashers are definitely meant to be sympathetic, given their inspirations are Thanos and Zemo, who are both sympathetic villains where you can see their point of view if not their methods
I don't see how Thanos has a point at all, he's given himself this apparently noble burden but no-one asked, Earth/the universe is not overpopulated, it's fuckin massive, it's all an ego trip

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #49 on: March 29, 2021, 12:57:28 AM »
I don't see how Thanos has a point at all, he's given himself this apparently noble burden but no-one asked, Earth/the universe is not overpopulated, it's fuckin massive, it's all an ego trip

Agreed, which is why I really enjoyed his portrayal in Endgame more than in IW - after a year of inane online chatter about Thanos being a sympathetic villain and over population being a genuine problem (it's not), his portrayal in Endgame showed it all to be bollocks; just pretense for the power trip of a cunt with a God complex. His portrayal in IW never sat right with me because it seemed so unconvincing, a desperate attempt by screenwriters to manufacture some sympathy for their villain; whereas Endgame showed it to be the character's attempt to manufacture some sympathy.

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #50 on: March 29, 2021, 02:11:03 AM »
The whole ‘Thanos is sympathetic’ thing is bizarre - Malthusian economic nonsense which doesn’t actually work.  Given that half of all life includes half of all the food that gets consumed - plants and animals are life, too - it wouldn’t fix a problem which didn’t exist in the first place.  Wiping out half of everything doesn’t seem like something which we can relate to.

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #51 on: March 29, 2021, 09:02:34 AM »
The whole ‘Thanos is sympathetic’ thing is bizarre - Malthusian economic nonsense which doesn’t actually work.  Given that half of all life includes half of all the food that gets consumed - plants and animals are life, too - it wouldn’t fix a problem which didn’t exist in the first place.  Wiping out half of everything doesn’t seem like something which we can relate to.

He also forgot that reproduction is a thing that happens on a daily basis. Though he is a guy who aimply found daughters lying around the place, so maybe he never learnt about it.

It's almost impressive that in trying to de-weird it, they ended up with something that made less sense than "trying to impress the physical representation of the concept of death, so that she'll go out with you".

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #52 on: March 29, 2021, 09:10:32 AM »
I don't see how Thanos has a point at all, he's given himself this apparently noble burden but no-one asked, Earth/the universe is not overpopulated, it's fuckin massive, it's all an ego trip
,

I think the fact that we are destroying our planet by ravaging its resources suggest Earth is over-populated. I don't think it is a complete ego-trip, though that is part of it. He saw his home world destroyed by overpopulation and wants to stop that from happening elsewhere. As I said, his methods are wrong and his logic is flawed but his intentions are, to some degree, sympathetic.

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #53 on: March 29, 2021, 09:36:42 AM »
I suppose Thanos thought that the general reaction to him realising his plan would be a grateful universe - maybe like the Flagsmashers. When his (previous) self finds out that the Avengers had gone to all this trouble to undo the click, it fucks him off to no end (hence saying he's going to enjoy destroying Earth) and he perhaps shows his true self by deciding to wipe out all life and start again in his own image.

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #54 on: March 29, 2021, 09:48:43 AM »
I suppose Thanos thought that the general reaction to him realising his plan would be a grateful universe - maybe like the Flagsmashers. When his (previous) self finds out that the Avengers had gone to all this trouble to undo the click, it fucks him off to no end (hence saying he's going to enjoy destroying Earth) and he perhaps shows his true self by deciding to wipe out all life and start again in his own image.

In his first appearance in Endgame (as the past version), he's covered in blood. By the end, he's saying "I tried to save the lives of 50% of the universe by killing the other 50%; but they're ungrateful, so I'll kill everyone instead," making a mockery of his apparent purpose.

His original plan makes no sense whatsoever, but the story works when you realise that it doesn't make sense to him either. All he really wants to do is kill a load of people, and he's found a weak justification for it.

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #55 on: March 29, 2021, 10:27:18 AM »
TFatWS is quite entertaining but as with Wandavision I think it would benefit from being a bit longer (6 episodes? We're 1/3rd of the way through already?). As a serial, it should take time to get to know the characters, more on the flag-smashers, more exploration on themes like race and government, set up fake-Cap for a big fall. If you look at the time spent on Captain America over his three films, or on the Thanos story over Infinity War and Endgame, 6 episodes is not much at all.

Artie Fufkin

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Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #56 on: March 29, 2021, 12:05:53 PM »
Sung by Aled Jones.
That is rather harsh. He's not a bad looking chap (and he was a bad mofo in Overlord) just not as ridiculously gorgeous as Evans.
I actually thought it was Matt Smith when he first appeared. Captain Who.

mothman

  • I don't know why
Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #57 on: March 29, 2021, 07:24:18 PM »
The Thanos we see at the start of EG, I don’t think he’s regretting his actions but the price he paid - sacrificing one daughter, the other having betrayed him just us much - obviously plays on his mind - until he loses his head. The one we see at the end of EG, he never paid that price, never had his daughters turn on him. He still wants to halve the universe but now he’s presented with the fact that he succeeded, only to have the same people who thwarted and delayed him for so long undo his success. Old Thanos felt - or thought he did - that his victory cost him “everything” - younger Thanos, not so much.

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #58 on: March 29, 2021, 09:05:28 PM »
If two people are fighting over a Caesar salad  and you destroy one of them out of existence with the infinity stones then at least the person left has half a Caesar salad.

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #59 on: March 29, 2021, 09:32:49 PM »
Really plot wise I think the MCU has always been about giving enough of a veneer of logic to make suspending disbelief possible, its never really looked to make its plot/setting something that could hold up to a more indepth analysis. The focus has I think pretty much always been on character stories and really thats tended to be how I'v judged it, whether they make dramatic sense or not.

These series I would say havent quite had the polish of the better MCU films, they are more prone to cliches and odd bits of duff dialog but there is generally enough good stuff mixed inbetween to make it worthwhile for me. As mentioned it is nice to see Stan get a bit more focus, he does play the character very well indeed but like Olsen has never really gotten a great deal of focus in the films so its nice to have something a bit more drama heavy.

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