Author Topic: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier  (Read 9706 times)

Butchers Blind

  • Adios pantaloons!
Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #60 on: March 30, 2021, 10:26:56 AM »
I know there has to be a level of verisimilitude but essentially you're talking about a genre that has people flying around in capes.. in space.

touchingcloth

  • Member
  • **
Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #61 on: March 30, 2021, 08:59:08 PM »
I didn’t think sci fi could get any closer to boring inanities of bureaucracy than Phantom Menace’s trade embargo, but this series takes the crown by daring to broach the topic of consolidating debts to help finance a business vehicle. 

bakabaka

  • Have we got over our differences yet? (ho/hum)
Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #62 on: April 02, 2021, 06:35:00 PM »
This week's episode is much more movie-dependent.
I worked out that the German guy who speaks really really bad Russian is Bucky's ex-handler.
No idea who the white woman who stole the shield was.
Or the black woman at the end.

The Flagsmashers are becoming more and less sympathetic. Her killing a load of people while in mourning for her mother didn't fit with the character they are trying to develop for her. Having both within such a short timeframe felt very clunky.

But nice to see the tradition of having English actors playing the bad guys (even when we're (almost) in India) continuing.

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #63 on: April 02, 2021, 07:50:00 PM »
Zemo went after the Avengers in Civil War because of all the collateral damage in Age of Ultron.  He pretty much achieves his goals so one point to the bad guys.

Dr Rock

  • The BEST of luck!
Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #64 on: April 02, 2021, 08:01:35 PM »
No idea who the white woman who stole the shield was.
Or the black woman at the end.

Sharon Carter (Steve Roger's) niece. Agent Of SHIELD. Helped Cap and those against the Sekovian accords, the registration act for superheroes, when she gave back his shield. Not pardoned so on the run. Also could be a red herring in this, but maybe she is The Powerbroker?

Woman at end is top warrior from Wakanda, Bucky killed Wakandan leader under hypnosis. But they seemed to have patched things up when he lived in Wakanda after unbrainwashing and fighting Thanos, and then post snap.

Dr Rock

  • The BEST of luck!
Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #65 on: April 02, 2021, 08:16:16 PM »
Wait, she says she's 'here for Zemo' (who was behind the killing of the Wakandan King) so that makes more sense.

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #66 on: April 02, 2021, 11:27:20 PM »
Sharon Carter (Steve Roger's) niece. Agent Of SHIELD.
Peggy Carter's niece, you mean. Stevie boy copped a snog from her, before he went back in time to live happy ever after.

Enjoyed that episode - yer man playing Zemo seemed to enjoy himself. As said before, I found the Flagsmashers unsympathetic from the start, so them suddenly murdering people didn't really shock me. Mainly I liked how Zemo didn't take all the obvious cues to betray Sam and Bucky - yet.

beanheadmcginty

  • I'm gonna ring-rang-a-dong for a holiday
Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #67 on: April 03, 2021, 05:56:53 AM »
Always had a soft spot for Zemo because he appears to be, to my eyes, played by Chris Barrie.

surreal

  • The monkey and the plywood violin
    • toosurreal.com
Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #68 on: April 03, 2021, 10:24:39 AM »
Always had a soft spot for Zemo because he appears to be, to my eyes, played by Chris Barrie.

I still see him as Nikki Lauda cos of "Rush"

mothman

  • I don't know why
Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #69 on: April 05, 2021, 02:12:20 AM »
Enjoyed that episode - yer man playing Zemo seemed to enjoy himself. As said before, I found the Flagsmashers unsympathetic from the start, so them suddenly murdering people didn't really shock me. Mainly I liked how Zemo didn't take all the obvious cues to betray Sam and Bucky - yet.

I thought this ep was quite good at getting across all the different viewpoints. The GRC are plainly not as saintly as their advertising paints them. The Flagsmashers ARE doing some things intended to help people. But some of them are doing more - and worse - than just that. I’ll admit I assumed that Karli was going to be one of the good’uns, but obviously not! Her role in Solo causing us to make assumptions there.

Daniel Brühl’s big break came in Ostalgie film Goodbye Lenin! which is really good and worth watching if you’ve not seen it before.

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #70 on: April 05, 2021, 08:20:36 PM »
Despite being the most action packed one so far, that felt like a bit of a place setting sort of episode overall.

Bruhl's Baron Zemo was the obvious standout (and was fun enough that I can ignore that he seemed to be a completely different character than he was in Civil War). Sharon Carter's presence failed to have the same impact. For one thing, she was never all that well established in her previous appearances (apparently, she was supposed to have a bigger role in the films, but got demoted when Scarlett Johansson agreed to star in Captain America 2).

I agree that Morgenthau[1] blowing up a bunch of people felt like rather a sharp swerve in her characterisation. I'm fine with her turning out to be more ruthless than she initially appeared, but that seemed to come out of nowhere. Also, the repeated references to a Dania Medani had me racking my brains for where I'd heard the name before. Then I remembered there was a completely unrelated Dinah Medani in the Netflix Punisher series. That was an odd, distracting coincidence.

After all the stuff about racism in the first two episodes, it felt very wrong to hinge a significant plotline on Sam conveniently looking like some other black man. I think I might have accepted it more easily if it had been played as a comment on the crooks all being a bit racist and thinking that any black man in a flashy suit was the Laughing Cow Smiling Tiger.

Will Bucky's antics in the bad guy bar come back to haunt him? His pardon was conditional on him not duffing anyone up and I thought I spotted a few bystanders videoing him, while he was duffing up lots of people.
 1. whose name the autocorrect keeps trying to change to 'Mouthorgan'

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #71 on: April 05, 2021, 08:51:57 PM »
Bruhl's Baron Zemo was the obvious standout (and was fun enough that I can ignore that he seemed to be a completely different character than he was in Civil War).
I get what you mean, seeing as he was ready to put a bullet through his own skull at the end of that film. But, hey, they say prison changes a man.

mothman

  • I don't know why
Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #72 on: April 06, 2021, 12:31:28 AM »
All the indicators would appear to be that he wasn’t Blipped, so it’s not impossible to conceive that 5/6/7 years in prison (despite the outside world going to hell) might have given him some new perspective, some new goal.

I’m rather unclear why he’s so anti-supersoldier though? Hydra weren’t really involved in what happened to Sokovia, and one of them even featured in his anti-Avenger revenge plan. I know he then went and killed the other ones in Siberia, but I don’t know why. Same reason then as now, I assume.

Mister Six

  • Golden Member
  • *****
  • Ridiculously teacakes
Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #73 on: April 06, 2021, 12:56:10 AM »
I know it's probably just a sign that I'm a total basic bitch, but I'm enjoying this a lot more than WandaVision - just fun and funny (especially with the addition of Zemo as a sarky sidekick[1]) action adventure. The ending is obvious - Sam gets the last[2] super soldier shot, makes up with Bucky, and then we get the tile card except this time it says Captain America and Bucky - but the journey is a lot of fun.

Worried that the appearance by Black Panther's bald mate might be a gimmick cameo too far, especially coming off the back of Sharon Carter, but I suppose it adds to the daft romp vibe.

Also a bit worried that they're turning the lead Flag Smasher into a violent killer so we don't have to worry about whether they might actually have a point. But we'll see.
 1. Although I can't really remember his relationship to Hydra, or what he had to do with Bucky's past, or even really what his motivations were. But it doesn't seem to matter.
 2. But with the possibility for more, for when they need to replace him as Cap.

Mister Six

  • Golden Member
  • *****
  • Ridiculously teacakes
Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #74 on: April 06, 2021, 12:59:40 AM »
Decent action so far, especially the fight on top of the trucks. Though how did the truck behind not see Bucky breaking into the one in front?

Oh yeah, that annoyed me. Seems like the kind of thing that would have been obvious at the scripting stage, much less through all the weeks of preproduction and days of filming.

Why not have him break into the back truck, then have the other truck switch around as the baddies figure out what's happening, so it kind of looms into the background behind Sam while he's trying to talk to the lass?

I dunno. Bit contrived either way, I suppose.

Dr Rock

  • The BEST of luck!
Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #75 on: April 06, 2021, 01:00:43 AM »
.
I’m rather unclear why he’s so anti-supersoldier though?

He thinks there shouldn't be any super-powered people at all, because they make the world more dangerous.

Mister Six

  • Golden Member
  • *****
  • Ridiculously teacakes
Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #76 on: April 06, 2021, 01:10:53 AM »
I wonder if Iron Man, Black Widow and Cap all being dead/out of action and Thor being off-planet has contributed a bit to Zemo's slightly more chipper attitude this time around.

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #77 on: April 06, 2021, 08:20:25 AM »
Worried that the appearance by Black Panther's bald mate might be a gimmick cameo too far, especially coming off the back of Sharon Carter, but I suppose it adds to the daft romp vibe.
I thought that was just a member of the Black Panther's elite guard, rather than the head of it (Okoye) herself and it does make sense that Wakanda would be a tad pissed off that Zemo is out and about.

That character has had small roles in Civil War, Black Panther and Infinity War, it seems.

Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #78 on: April 06, 2021, 03:51:35 PM »
I know it's probably just a sign that I'm a total basic bitch, but I'm enjoying this a lot more than WandaVision - just fun and funny... action adventure.
That's fair enough, I reckon. For better and worse, it's set itself a lower bar to clear. I'm not as filled with anticipation as I was by WandaVision each week, but lower expectations also means less chance to disappoint. There's no mystery box nonsense here to shit the bed. The closest I imagine it coming would be...
turning the lead Flag Smasher into a violent killer so we don't have to worry about whether they might actually have a point.
After all the setup of racist banks, police and such, it would be very disappointing if Sam ends up siding with the status quo. I'd be surprised if he went all revolutionary, but then Captain America 2 did end with them symbolically destroying SHIELD, so I suppose it's not impossible for it to end up endorsing some sort of change.

Dr Rock

  • The BEST of luck!
Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #79 on: April 06, 2021, 04:24:53 PM »
I reckon the old black super-soldier will talk Falcon into why it's a good idea for a black man to represent a country plagued with racism rather than a bad one.

mothman

  • I don't know why
Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #80 on: April 06, 2021, 06:16:28 PM »
He thinks there shouldn't be any super-powered people at all, because they make the world more dangerous.

Ah, gotcha.

I wonder if Iron Man, Black Widow and Cap all being dead/out of action and Thor being off-planet has contributed a bit to Zemo's slightly more chipper attitude this time around.

I guess having a significant portion of the team (that allowed a robot they built to drop part of a city on his family) die saving the universe is bound to give him a new perspective on things.

I’m rather hoping we get to see more of him, and that his motivations (whatever they are or become) continue to make sense i.e. not just another moustache-twirling villain. He was motivated by revenge first time round. Now there’s nobody to take revenge against. Neither Sam nor Bucky were part of the Sokovia calamity. He may choose to regard them as part of the same problem and seek to eradicate them accordingly. He’s not averse to collateral damage if it suits his needs (like killing T’Challa’s father just to frame Bucky - which is a bit rum when you really think about it, because there were plenty of others that the Winter Soldier really DID kill) but it doesn’t make sense for him to pursue the kind of wholesale destruction that will destroy families just like his was.

Mister Six

  • Golden Member
  • *****
  • Ridiculously teacakes
Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #81 on: April 06, 2021, 07:23:00 PM »
Killing T'Dada motivated the UN/SHIELD to go after Bucky, which was intended to drive a wedge between The Avengers' two figureheads by creating unstoppable momentum on both sides, whereas revealing Bucky killed Tony's dad straight up would probably have just led to a bit of internal strife and everyone holding Tony back like the superhero equivalent of a spilled kebab outside a Manchester nightclub.

Really hoping that new Cap will just realise he's not temperamentally suited to the job and willingly step down rather than having to go evil/sacrifice himself or whatever. It would be a bit more moving and meaningful and less of a cop-out.

Likewise the Flag Smashers. Especially since Bucky's whole arc is about atoning for the past and trying to do better.[1]

I think we're going to get a generally centrist viewpoint that extremism is bad and that the system can and should be rehabilitated from the inside with Sam as a prominent force for change, though.

That's fair enough, I reckon. For better and worse, it's set itself a lower bar to clear. I'm not as filled with anticipation as I was by WandaVision each week, but lower expectations also means less chance to disappoint.

I'm the opposite - or at least further down the spectrum from that opinion. I started viewing WandaVision as something I had to get through to join in various pop-cultural chatter, whereas while I'm not absolutely ecstatic about this, I do gently look forward to putting it on while I'm doing the dishes.
 1. Although he, at least, didn't really have any agency in that whatsoever.


bakabaka

  • Have we got over our differences yet? (ho/hum)
Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #83 on: April 09, 2021, 12:15:54 PM »
It shouldn't be that hard to get Turkish Delight right, surely?

mothman

  • I don't know why
Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #84 on: April 10, 2021, 12:45:57 AM »
It’s EVIL Turkish Delight. Or maybe it’s something from Sokovia they call “Turkish Delight” but is like, um, an “English Muffin.”

Also, a friend of mine is from Cyprus and they do Cypriot Delight in various flavours that bears no resemblance to Turkish Delight. The “chocolate” flavour, for example, is notable for neither being brown nor tasting of chocolate.

... but yeah, they got Turkish Delight wrong.

bakabaka

  • Have we got over our differences yet? (ho/hum)
Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #85 on: April 10, 2021, 09:11:00 AM »
So the big plot development question at the end of this week’s episode is

Who gets the last serum?

Captain Amerika - the original and obvious choice from the word ‘go’. The predictable storyline would take him to where he is now and in his frustration at not winning he takes it. However we have already reached the crunch point where he loses it and public opinion turns against him, so ramping it up is no longer necessary. But it would allow for a powered-up Obligatory Comic Book Fight Scene between him, Bucky and Sam, so not to be discounted.
The Falcon - in a deathbed conversion, the last thing that NuCap does is to administer the serum to Sam without his consent for the good of the country/Captain America’s image. Or just to power him up so he can trash the bad guys in revenge. Either way works, leaving Sam with a classic Marvel moral dilemma - is he Uncle Sam or Uncle Tom? Bucky will counsel him through it (with some help from Wakanda, presumably).. But it will be his sister, in a speech about ‘family’ that will set him straight.

Bucky - due to some contrived accident, Bucky accidentally gets injected with it and becomes a super-duper-soldier. For no reason other than being able to use the word ‘super-duper-soldier’. Will probably just lead to more angsty acting and Bucky going into hiding until a story in the future needs a deux ex machina. Oh, and ‘family’.

Zemo - realising that it’s the only way for him to escape, Zemo nicks the serum, takes it and buggers off, not to be seen again until he pops up as Doctor Doom’s sidekick/mad scientist in the next Fantastic Four movie.

The blonde woman in notSingapore - she wants it to help fight the international crime syndicates round her way, so pretends that she wants to become the next Captain America in order to be given it (“Let’s keep it in the family”). This is a ploy designed specifically to generate a sexist social media storm similar to the Captain Marvel one, because in the next episode she hands back the shield and buggers off back to notSingapore to become a sober Jessica Jones who will get cameos in any future Marvel movies that require a cachet of international terrorism.

Sam’s sister - she is attacked and almost killed by Flagsmasher woman, but the good guys arrive just in time to administer the serum to save her life. Once she heals, the government says that it’s too early to have a Captain America who’s black and female so she goes back to fishing. But she realises that she can now do it without the expensive boat, which she throws over the horizon in one last, life- and family-affirming shot. Accompanied by a mildly comic quip, obviously.

Stan Lee - they inject it into the corpse of Stan the Man, reviving him as an uncanny valley zombie who can then get back to doing what he does best - appear in every Marvel show in a forgettable, badly-acted scene. Accompanied by a mildly comic quip, obviously.

The kids - Zemo dosed up the ‘Turkish Delight’ with the remaining serum so all the refugee kids become just that little bit more special so all the countries in the world want them and so open their borders to all refugees and they all live happily ever after as a happy family and Flagsmasher Woman repents, sees the light and becomes the surrogate mother for her family of semi-super sprogs.

mothman

  • I don't know why
Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #86 on: April 10, 2021, 10:00:55 AM »
As far as I think we can tell, there was only one vial left, which NuCap found, and which he appears to have subsequently taken (as in injected or injected - I wonder which?). So unless Zemo kept one (why?), or Karli still has some (but she says she didn’t, and I don’t see how she could - the vials didn’t just fall out of the bum-bag, she lost that too didn’t she?), I’m not sure how Sam can be Captained or Americafied at this point.

Dr Rock

  • The BEST of luck!
Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #87 on: April 10, 2021, 10:05:42 AM »
I heard some reviewer said there were 5 vials left.

touchingcloth

  • Member
  • **
Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #88 on: April 10, 2021, 10:07:43 AM »
... but yeah, they got Turkish Delight wrong.

Did they? Just because it was individually-wrapped, or did I miss something else?

touchingcloth

  • Member
  • **
Re: The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
« Reply #89 on: April 10, 2021, 10:10:29 AM »
So the big plot development question at the end of this week’s episode is

Who gets the last serum?


Is that a question? It was taken by Cap already, wasn't it? He pocketed it, and in the final scenes of the episode he was booting people around with what I assumed was super soldier strength...

Tags: