Lee Hurst having a normal one, again

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

People wishing prison rape on criminals is fucking vile.

[TrenterPercenter]

I didn't think he was whining at all, nor did I get that he even suggested men have it worse, he was (at least from my point of view) just showing some of the ways men can get damaged. I don't think he meant it in any way competitively - Also it looked like he was replying to the person above him, so it was entirely contextual. Why don't you make that thread? Nobody is stopping you.

Thank you Kryton, yes I was actually replying to Kankurette who was replying to Shoulders comment earlier.

[derek stitt]

It is really is quite possible to call out sexists like Lee Hurst whilst not committing oneself to reductionist views on sex/race ". 

I actually agree with this one sentence. Zero tolerance on all aspects of sexual harassment is something that can be quite damaging. Call out somebody for making a crude remark but to bracket him in the same category as Jimmy Savile et al is quite naive, knee jerk, non differentiating between extreme cases and vengeful too. I mean taking away quite a lot of a mans agency because he made some unthinking comment on the size of a woman's tits does not sit well with me. Of course, it's not on the same level as what women have to put up with but, it's still unjust and justice is the name of the game in all of this isn't it. There is also the worry of things not being called out because people will not want so and so to lose their job and reputation on something that can be probably be  dealt with, with the appropriate discourse etc. I think research into zero policy on sexual harassment in the workplace has highlighted this as an unwanted consequence of adopting such a strategy.  This leads me to ask how can you root out a thing if you do not have all the tools at your disposal to do so. Another point is, how do you deal with the backlash against people being labelled a Savile for having what all humans have and that is the occasional unpleasant thought. Non of us are pure of mind  and to think that you are not is simply sanctimonious.

Please do not think I am deliberately throwing a spanner in the works just to be a cunt I am not. It's just I think that changing a culture is going to take more than a high impact quick fix. It needs a lot of hard work and a strategy that is out of my understanding.

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

yes yes what if a man loses his job for innocently making a disgusting comment on the size of some woman's tits, she should get a life shouldn't she, stop diluting sexual harassment

[TrenterPercenter]

I actually agree with this one sentence. Zero tolerance on all aspects of sexual harassment is something that can be quite damaging. Call out somebody for making a crude remark but to bracket him in the same category as Jimmy Savile et al is quite naive, knee jerk, non differentiating between extreme cases and vengeful too. I mean taking away quite a lot of a mans agency because he made some unthinking comment on the size of a woman's tits does not sit well with me. Of course, it's not on the same level as what women have to put up with but, it's still unjust and justice is the name of the game in all of this isn't it. There is also the worry of things not being called out because people will not want so and so to lose their job and reputation on something that can be probably be  dealt with, with the appropriate discourse etc. I think research into zero policy on sexual harassment in the workplace has highlighted this as an unwanted consequence of adopting such a strategy.  This leads me to ask how can you root out a thing if you do not have all the tools at your disposal to do so. Another point is, how do you deal with the backlash against people being labelled a Savile for having what all humans have and that is the occasional unpleasant thought. Non of us are pure of mind  and to think that you are not is simply sanctimonious.

Please do not think I am deliberately throwing a spanner in the works just to be a cunt I am not. It's just I think that changing a culture is going to take more than a high impact quick fix. It needs a lot of hard work and a strategy that is out of my understanding.

Not at all these are all valid concerns; they are also nothing new; reductionism is a historically illiberal practice; lawyers fought in the past for proportionality by the law i.e. that punishments were proportionate to the crime and not simply used a deterrent (as it leads an uprating of punishments when deterrents lose impact and the requirement for barbarism by states in order to prove deterrent will be carried out).  Reductionist views of harm were used historically against working class people; men and women it is a human right under ECHR and UK law; it states that punishments should not be more than what is required for a desired effect.  As it is such an important issue we appoint judges to handle sentencing and these judges are answerable to their actions.

What we have going on a lot of the time in the circumstances you describe are mob rule approaches, usually spurned on by angry zealot like individuals who make themselves unanswerable to whether their behaviour was proportional or not.

This is never question of not rooting out or not combating sexism or racism but how you do it matters.

[TrenterPercenter]

yes yes what if a man loses his job for innocently making a disgusting comment on the size of some woman's tits, she should get a life shouldn't she, stop diluting sexual harassment

This isn't what that poster was saying and you know it.

You've added lots of stuff into it just so you can paint him as something you've just literally made up.

if a man loses his job for making a disgusting comment; is that proportional is the actual question he was asking.  No one said anything about how the victim should get a life; you purposely put that in and it is a common feature of your posts i.e. making things up so you can be horrid to people.

[chveik]

who exactly has lost their jobs for making a crude remark? this is a thread about a man who had is twitter account suspended for a little while. and saying that the tweet is noncey doesn't mean you're calling the guy a Saville

[TrenterPercenter]

who exactly has lost their jobs for making a crude remark? this is a thread about a man who had is twitter account suspended for a little while. and saying that the tweet is noncey doesn't mean you're calling the guy a Saville

It seems quite obvious that derek is not talking directly about Lee Hurst but about applications to broader issues; you say the question who exactly has lost their job for making a crude remark as if it is ridiculous assertion, do you not think it possible or to have happened?

[Buelligan]

I actually agree with this one sentence. Zero tolerance on all aspects of sexual harassment is something that can be quite damaging. Call out somebody for making a crude remark but to bracket him in the same category as Jimmy Savile et al is quite naive, knee jerk, non differentiating between extreme cases and vengeful too. I mean taking away quite a lot of a mans agency because he made some unthinking comment on the size of a woman's tits does not sit well with me. Of course, it's not on the same level as what women have to put up with but, it's still unjust and justice is the name of the game in all of this isn't it. There is also the worry of things not being called out because people will not want so and so to lose their job and reputation on something that can be probably be  dealt with, with the appropriate discourse etc. I think research into zero policy on sexual harassment in the workplace has highlighted this as an unwanted consequence of adopting such a strategy.  This leads me to ask how can you root out a thing if you do not have all the tools at your disposal to do so. Another point is, how do you deal with the backlash against people being labelled a Savile for having what all humans have and that is the occasional unpleasant thought. Non of us are pure of mind  and to think that you are not is simply sanctimonious.

Please do not think I am deliberately throwing a spanner in the works just to be a cunt I am not. It's just I think that changing a culture is going to take more than a high impact quick fix. It needs a lot of hard work and a strategy that is out of my understanding.

Think about this for a bit then.  What would or should happen to a man if he made a dreadfully inappropriate and rude comment about the size of a woman's tits and that woman happened to be his boss?

Perhaps, if he knew she was in earshot, he'd exercise some self restraint.

[kryton2.0]

who exactly has lost their jobs for making a crude remark?

Nobody in the existence of time itself.

[Jumblegraws]

This isn't what that poster was saying and you know it.

You've added lots of stuff into it just so you can paint him as something you've just literally made up.

if a man loses his job for making a disgusting comment; is that proportional is the actual question he was asking.  No one said anything about how the victim should get a life; you purposely put that in and it is a common feature of your posts i.e. making things up so you can be horrid to people.

There, there

[chveik]

It seems quite obvious that derek is not talking directly about Lee Hurst but about applications to broader issues; you say the question who exactly has lost their job for making a crude remark as if it is ridiculous assertion, do you not think it possible or to have happened?

sexual harrassment at work is a very serious issue. if someone gets fired over it, it's probably for a good reason. and a 'crude remark' doesn't exist in a vacuum, it can be used to dehumanize or threaten someone. as far as I can see this zero tolerance on sexual harrassment is a myth, a lot of workplaces are still incredibly toxic. so yeah maybe before engaging in hyperbolic discourse you need to give some actual examples of what you're describing.

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

Think about this for a bit then.  What would or should happen to a man if he made a dreadfully inappropriate and rude comment about the size of a woman's tits and that woman happened to be his boss?

Perhaps, if he knew she was in earshot, he'd exercise some self restraint.

But most of the time, she isn't his boss. She's a coworker, and she has to decide whether to sit there and take it, confront him about it, or go to HR and set that whole process in motion and have everyone wringing their hands about a man losing his job over an unthinking remark.

[derek stitt]

Think about this for a bit then.  What would or should happen to a man if he made a dreadfully inappropriate and rude comment about the size of a woman's tits and that woman happened to be his boss?

Perhaps, if he knew she was in earshot, he'd exercise some self restraint.

Here's another question what's the point of having a conversation with an ideologue.

[St_Eddie]

Why are you so insistent on segregating male and female concerns?

I suggested a thread on male mental health but well done for equating that to "men having it definitely worse".  I don't think men have it definitely worse I think there are a variety of experiences of both men and women, that empathising with either is not a competition and that gender reductionism is highly problematic.

You see male problems and instantly see them as a threat or something to take issue with, have you considered this might be your problem, your biases and your prejudices?

Well said.

[Bernice]

Imagine if a man got raped though ahhhhhhh

[Buelligan]

But most of the time, she isn't his boss. She's a coworker, and she has to decide whether to sit there and take it, confront him about it, or go to HR and set that whole process in motion and have everyone wringing their hands about a man losing his job over an unthinking remark.

Exactly.  It's about power.  Power over yourself and power over others and weighing up how much effort you need to put in to come out on top if you don't care how anyone else feels.

If someone can exercise self restraint and not call their boss, male or female, a cunt because they want to keep their job.  They can sure as shit exercise self control and not abuse other people with less power.  It just depends on whether they can be bothered.  And, if they can't, what the rest of us are going to do about that.

[Kankurette]

People wishing prison rape on criminals is fucking vile.

Absolutely bloody hate it. No, rape is NOT OK when the victim is someone we don't like.

Men also get threatened with character assassination that could impact careers or relationships; they can be presented as sexual deviants; criminals unjustly (especially if they not conventionally attractive), men get humiliated for not being sexually successful or being too sexually successful, not being financially successful or not being physically dominant.  All done very much by women (and other men)....just women that then get othered into exceptions to the rule when it is much more mainstream and ubiquitous.

Men don't get rape threats; they do kill themselves, relatively speaking quite a lot.

I know. Men bring this fact up whenever women try to have a discussion about our issues and stuff we experience, and tbh you do do this a lot and it makes me wary of bringing up misogyny because men on here will go 'but these things happen to men too' or 'did you know men kill themselves'. We know, trust me. We know. I come from a family with a history of mental illness. My grandad tried to kill himself MULTIPLE TIMES. No, I don't think you're a rape apologist but I don't get why, whenever women talk about misogyny, you have to point out that bad things happen to men. Like, do we need to add caveats now?

Re men getting rape threats, the prison rape jokes are usually about someone who's in jail. I don't know if, for instance, male politicians get sent rape threats, or male political activists who speak out about certain things. Or male football pundits (and yes, I know they do get a lot of abuse as well, especially if they're black but the likes of Alex Scott or Karen Carney anger male fans for daring to be women in a man's game).

I'm talking about women specifically because I am one. And this is also why I find arguing on here hard; because we're talking about something that is actually personal to me. I'm not Greta Thunberg but, like her, I've had to deal with nasty sexual comments from men for a good part of my life. And it makes me feel small and makes me wish I could disappear.

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

Here's another question what's the point of having a conversation with an ideologue.

ahhh, right on time

expecting men to not make shitty, personal, RUDE remarks about women's bodies = being an ideologue now

(always the same handful of posters who start up with "but MEN'S PROBLEMS" whenever there's an attempt to discuss sexism, isn't it. Nearly all the usual suspects here.)

[Jumblegraws]

This isn't what that poster was saying and you know it.

You've added lots of stuff into it just so you can paint him as something you've just literally made up.

if a man loses his job for making a disgusting comment; is that proportional is the actual question he was asking.  No one said anything about how the victim should get a life; you purposely put that in and it is a common feature of your posts i.e. making things up so you can be horrid to people.

I've seen you making this "but that's not what was said" defence quite a few times. I wonder, does it ever occur to you that PBGC and others don't do this because they get a kick out of vilifying people, but because they recognise (perhaps incorrectly, if I'm being 100% fair to you) the statements being made as cautious, non-commital precursors to the kind of harsher implications they're alluding to?

[bgmnts]

 - >   Female abused-¬ 
|               |               |
|          Outrage          |   
|               |               |
|         #notallmen      |
|               |               |
|     Men suffer ahhh   |
|               |               |
|   We need conversation
|               |               |
| _ Nothing solved  <_|

[jobotic]

Fellas we need a section called Manchat or something where there won't be any annoying women not listening to us or hanging off our every word because of their ideologies.

We won't say anything awful there because that's not what we're like certainly not but at least we'll be listened to, right?

[Buelligan]

You haven't thought this through.


Who's going to make the fucking sandwiches?

[jobotic]

Oh here we go. Implying that we can't make sandwiches.

I thought you were the ones who objected to these stereotypes.

While we're talking about sexual harassment a woman on the desk near me said I had man flu

[Buelligan]

Was she the surgeon?

[kryton2.0]

You haven't thought this through.


Who's going to make the fucking sandwiches?

I don't mind doing so.

[derek stitt]

ahhh, right on time

expecting men to not make shitty, personal, RUDE remarks about women's bodies = being an ideologue now

(always the same handful of posters who start up with "but MEN'S PROBLEMS" whenever there's an attempt to discuss sexism, isn't it. Nearly all the usual suspects here.)

I haven't been going on about men's problems. I have been trying to understand how to deal with sexual harassment and making the point that  some instances of sexual harassment are worse than others.Maybe then, we see sexual harassment with varying degrees of disgust and then treated accordingly and justly. I have been clumsy in some of my phrasing, overlooked some possibilities and scenarios and have as a consequence been made aware, by others,  of my own sexism in some of the posts I have made. That's something for me to work on and I will. However, I still maintain that blanket assumptions about all cases of sexual harassment will do more to hinder than help in a real world context.
Also, if some of the people on here would drop the smokescreen of intellectual vanity and ask themselves what they actually know about sexual harassment. I have a suspicion that level of awareness  will be somewhere near mine, about fuck all. Again, cultural change is going to take a lot more than empty sloganeering.

[Buelligan]

Being absolutely serious for a moment, one of the things people who know nothing at all about sexual harassment can contribute is to listen to people who have had to face it regularly all their lives.  I say this with affection but it needs hearing.

[kryton2.0]

Being absolutely serious for a moment, one of the things people who know nothing at all about sexual harassment can contribute is to listen to people who have had to face it regularly all their lives.  I say this with affection but it needs hearing.

Yeah and some of them are men and are being told to shut up. Not aimed at anyone, but how is it healthy to silence subjects based on gender? Are men not mature enough to discuss female issues? Or their own issues?

[idunnosomename]

Imagine if a man got raped though ahhhhhhh

phwoar