Flag-shaggery in England

[mothman]

Cunt two doors down from us had a Chelsea flag in his back garden. But he's dead now, so it all worked out OK in the end.[nb]Regardless of your feelings towards Chelsea, in this case he was just generally a cunt, and not specifically because he had a Chelsea flag up.[/nb]

[idunnosomename]

When did Wales get onto an equal footing as Scotland and Northern Ireland in the popular consciousness? If it was basically part of England back then, what made people start to refer to it as a seperate thing?

mostly early 20th century. A big early victory for Welsh nationalism was the disestablishment of the Church of Wales in 1920. Unlike England it is no longer the state Church and is just the Church of Wales. I mean it was a big thing at the time. At this time as well there were also efforts to stop the Welsh language going extinct and later it began to be taught in state schools etc.

The Welsh did attempts to form kingdoms but the Normans weren't happy about it and then of course Edward I basically put it under constant military occupation with enormous fuck-off castles. He didn't annex it as such but have it as a Principality (hence the eldest royal son being the Prince of Wales).

You prob know all this but still, the history of Wales is interesting because it mostly boils down to England being a cunt, as usual

[bgmnts]

Yeah but it also boils down to the Welsh being either thick, squabbling or pure servile (looking at you Hywel Dda).

But then, the Welsh Tudur/Tudor dynasty is probably the most famous British royal dynasty in history and that pretty much put the nail in the coffin for Wales.

[Buelligan]

The fuck it does.

[El Unicornio, mang]

It's a shame the English flag has been tainted in some people's minds. It looks quite nice flying from Bamburgh Castle though. The Northumberland flag is even better

I got shamed on a recent Zoom quiz for not knowing my own county's flag. And shamed even more when I declared that I thought it looked terrible.

I kind of get people waving flags of their country if they're living in a foreign place, like "hey I'm from here" but I don't understand wanting to see your own flag everywhere. You can't move for American flags in the US, most classrooms have them by county or state law and there have been plans to make it a federal law.

I quite like the Union Flag design but I rarely see it on anything but stylistic renderings on T-shirts and things. I think I probably saw more of them in Florida, dangling outside the ex-pat pubs or on the top of Mini Coopers. If I saw one on a house here I'd automatically think "BNP member", it kind of has that connotation which I think might be unique to the UK.

[Ferris]

I got shamed on a recent Zoom quiz for not knowing my own county's flag. And shamed even more when I declared that I thought it looked terrible.

I kind of get people waving flags of their country if they're living in a foreign place, like "hey I'm from here" but I don't understand wanting to see your own flag everywhere. You can't move for American flags in the US, most classrooms have them by county or state law and there have been plans to make it a federal law.

There's an Austrian flag, a Polish flag, a Swedish flag and an English one[nb]not to state the obvious, but no I'm not responsible for it[/nb] in the 2 or three streets near us and I quite like seeing them. Like going down embassy row - every 10th house is like a little consulate.

There's a place for flags isn't there? They're quite nice when they aren't being used as rallying posts for racists. Maybe "you can only do your flag if you're outside the country of that flag" or something.

[Sebastian Cobb]

Maybe "you can only do your flag if you're outside the country of that flag" or something.

That's generally what started the problems in the first place!

[El Unicornio, mang]

There's an Austrian flag, a Polish flag, a Swedish flag and an English one[nb]not to state the obvious, but no I'm not responsible for it[/nb] in the 2 or three streets near us and I quite like seeing them. Like going down embassy row - every 10th house is like a little consulate.

There's a place for flags isn't there? They're quite nice when they aren't being used as rallying posts for racists. Maybe "you can only do your flag if you're outside the country of that flag" or something.

Yeah that's what I'm talking about, I've never been one for "I'm proud to be from [place you happened to be born in]" but nice to see the variety.

Some streets in America I've walked through are just like



And if you mention it they arrest you and give you the electric chair.

[Butchers Blind]

I think they're very insecure as a nation.

[Buelligan]

I went to one, somewhere near Yosemite I think, anyway, a small town, the whole place was like it.  Went in the diner, they had pictures of Reagan - this was in this fucking century - on the walls.  Not just one, either.  Fuck me, couldn't wait to get out of there.

Always been that way, I think https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqHddcMUF9w

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

You should visit.  In my nearest small town, we have a building, the local HQ of the Front National, every time they repaint the building, someone comes and writes the most terrible offensive instructions to them on it again.  In huge letters. They haven't bothered trying to paint over it now for the last couple of years. 

I can't speak for all French, we had Vichy, so it's obvious that there have always been fascists (don't forget, your own politicians and Royal family, some prominent ones were and are, effectively, nazis).  But my feeling is that our right wing foot soldiers, many of them, like many of them in the UK, are angry working class people who want something done and are being corralled by fascists, pretty similar in both countries.  Pretty similar before both wars, I think.

But what we're talking about here is the poppy behaviour, France is better than the UK.  I can say that with some authority having lived both.

If you want a cock-measuring contest between the UK and France, you're going to lose but you should start another thread.  Heheh.

I'm not sure why you think that is something I want. You made the post and drew the comparison.

A lot of that post that boils down to 'we have some fascists and some anti fascists', which isn't terribly elucidating.

The point is that you dislike the jingoism and chauvinism of Britain when it comes to Remembrance Sunday. Likewise. But when it comes to that level of boorishness in general, the sheer numbers show over and over again that more French are attracted to far right politics and in my opinion that should be considerably more worrying than the poppy measuring contests that happen in the UK once a year, both because of the threat to ordinarily people that represents but also because achieving that reach by its very nature dispenses, normalises and amplifies the jingoism and chauvinistic attitudes you and I abhor.

[Famous Mortimer]

we had Vichy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand-waving

If you want a cock-measuring contest between the UK and France, you're going to lose but you should start another thread.  Heheh.

You started the comparison, and it appears you're the only person who wants that. I think most people here are pretty honest about the faults of the UK.

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

Both France and Britain fucked up large parts of the world, so you can both enjoy that.

[Buelligan]

You started the comparison, and it appears you're the only person who wants that. I think most people here are pretty honest about the faults of the UK.

The cock-measuring comment was an allusion to this, hence the subtitle I gave to that post.  I didn't think I'd have to explain it or I wouldn't have mentioned it.

Also, I would just add, Mortimer, fuck off with the hand-waving shit.  Read the rest of the post.

[Elderly Sumo Prophecy]

You should visit.  In my nearest small town, we have a building, the local HQ of the Front National, every time they repaint the building, someone comes and writes the most terrible offensive instructions to them on it again.  In huge letters. They haven't bothered trying to paint over it now for the last couple of years. 

I can't speak for all French, we had Vichy, so it's obvious that there have always been fascists (don't forget, your own politicians and Royal family, some prominent ones were and are, effectively, nazis).  But my feeling is that our right wing foot soldiers, many of them, like many of them in the UK, are angry working class people who want something done and are being corralled by fascists, pretty similar in both countries.  Pretty similar before both wars, I think.

But what we're talking about here is the poppy behaviour, France is better than the UK.  I can say that with some authority having lived both.

If you want a cock-measuring contest between the UK and France, you're going to lose but you should start another thread.  Heheh.

Alright. Will we be offered suitable accommodation in the Buell cave?

[An tSaoi]

You prob know all this but still

No, I never learned any of this. Cheers.

the history of Wales is interesting because it mostly boils down to England being a cunt, as usual

Ah, I knew that.

[Zetetic]

There's a place for flags isn't there? They're quite nice when they aren't being used as rallying posts for racists.

Some flags carry a meaning, however, and you can't get away from that in virtue of context.

[Zetetic]

At this time as well there were also efforts to stop the Welsh language going extinct and later it began to be taught in state schools etc

Although notably it really doesn't attain the status of e.g. Czech, as the rallying point for a popular national and intellectual identity during the rise of nations.

Complicated by the massive demographic changes in South Wales in the 19th and 20th century?

[Kankurette]

You should visit.  In my nearest small town, we have a building, the local HQ of the Front National, every time they repaint the building, someone comes and writes the most terrible offensive instructions to them on it again.  In huge letters. They haven't bothered trying to paint over it now for the last couple of years. 

I can't speak for all French, we had Vichy, so it's obvious that there have always been fascists (don't forget, your own politicians and Royal family, some prominent ones were and are, effectively, nazis).  But my feeling is that our right wing foot soldiers, many of them, like many of them in the UK, are angry working class people who want something done and are being corralled by fascists, pretty similar in both countries.  Pretty similar before both wars, I think.

But what we're talking about here is the poppy behaviour, France is better than the UK.  I can say that with some authority having lived both.

If you want a cock-measuring contest between the UK and France, you're going to lose but you should start another thread.  Heheh.

What's Remembrance Day like in France? Do they do anything there?

ETA: nevermind, you answered. I wish it was more like that here. It should be a sombre, quiet day for reflection, not jingoistic dick waving.

[Buelligan]

We have a quiet ceremony at the memorial, lay a wreath, usually a bugle, people contemplate.  Just a thing on the day, a restrained and respectful few minutes of thought.

I'm not sure why you think that is something I want. You made the post and drew the comparison.

A lot of that post that boils down to 'we have some fascists and some anti fascists', which isn't terribly elucidating.

The point is that you dislike the jingoism and chauvinism of Britain when it comes to Remembrance Sunday. Likewise. But when it comes to that level of boorishness in general, the sheer numbers show over and over again that more French are attracted to far right politics and in my opinion that should be considerably more worrying than the poppy measuring contests that happen in the UK once a year, both because of the threat to ordinarily people that represents but also because achieving that reach by its very nature dispenses, normalises and amplifies the jingoism and chauvinistic attitudes you and I abhor.

Sorry.  Missed this.  As I said, this is not a coq-measuring contest.  We were talking about 11/11 and I said, that here, in France, in my fairly long experience, we do it with more restraint.  People don't get bullied into feeling they have to take part.  I'm sorry if you feel that comment is an insult to the great British poppy thing, that you don't even like, but there it is.  Britain loses to France on this occasion, IMO, get over it.

[idunnosomename]

Although notably it really doesn't attain the status of e.g. Czech, as the rallying point for a popular national identity during the rise of nations.

Complicated by the massive demographic changes in South Wales in the 19th and 20th century?

yes very much so. could see Chepstow to Swansea is another West Country county. certainly the most valuable economic area after industrialisation. full of bloody English.

[bgmnts]

yes very much so. could see Chepstow to Swansea is another West Country county. certainly the most valuable economic area after industrialisation. full of bloody English.

The Gwent area is as historically Welsh as any other region I'd say.

Edit: Gwent to Swansea.

[Kankurette]

I wonder how much Nazi occupation AND being closer to Germany/the frontlines where much of WW1 was taking place has to do with the way the French commemorate Remembrance Day.

[Zetetic]

The Gwent area is as historically Welsh as any other region I'd say.

And the English-speaking Welsh-born population there is now pretty essential to Welsh national identity, and constitute the majority of the people who identify as 'Welsh' (even if they also identify as 'British').

[jamiefairlie]

What's Remembrance Day like in France? Do they do anything there?

ETA: nevermind, you answered. I wish it was more like that here. It should be a sombre, quiet day for reflection, not jingoistic dick waving.

It used to be like that when I was a kid, very much a WW1 focus. The current mania only started in the 90s I think.

[Buelligan]

I wonder how much Nazi occupation AND being closer to Germany/the frontlines where much of WW1 was taking place has to do with the way the French commemorate Remembrance Day.

I have no idea.  I think the British thing has really grown in the last couple of decades, been promoted hard for political reasons.  All the flag-waving and stuff, all the social pressure to conform.  It comes across very insular.  Almost like the two wars were Britain's wars, there doesn't seem to be much internationalism from the British establishment perspective around it.  Which is weird.  Like that Laurence Fox remark when criticising the film 1917.  It feels, to me, as if there's an agenda to make Britons feel like they, alone, won the wars, they, alone, made the sacrifices - which is obvious bollocks.  I think the French do it the way it used to be done in the UK.

[Ferris]

Some flags carry a meaning, however, and you can't get away from that in virtue of context.

I agree to some extent, but putting them in a different country (can) largely remove the context right? Maybe the rule should be "different continent" or something? I don't know really.

Example: I find English flags in England a bit dodgy at best unless the World Cup is on or something and even then, I'm not a fan. Outside of Europe/the UK I'm less bothered by them, because they aren't used to justify right wing parties or foment football violence here.

Other example - some flags don't have the same baggage. I don't think anyone flying a NZ flag would generate too much aggro regardless of where in the world they were. Maybe they would and I'm just sheltered.

Rubbish rambling shit post. Sorry.

[Zetetic]

Perhaps setting it alight would work?

(Edit: Flag not the post.)

[Blumf]

I once saw a West Midlands flag...

That's not the West Midlands flag, it's The Black Country flag... and some cunts.

It's an okay design, looks good, has some meaning. Let the yam yams have their bunting.


Actual W. Mids Flag:

[Zetetic]

It's an okay design, looks good, has some meaning.

Looks a bit like a first go at a flag for the Verein Deutscher Chemiker.