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March 28, 2024, 11:34:28 AM

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Cunts And Shitheads Of YouTube

Started by Dr Rock, March 24, 2021, 09:33:28 AM

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Video Game Fan 2000

I wrote "any standard whatsoever", I didn't mean it was of "no standard whatsoever"

And you only have to look at reddit, twitter, forums, etc see people talking about how cite these kind of videos in their papers, take exaggerated points at face value, describe them as life changing, etc.

I don't want to bicker about any of this though. If you think I'm asking too much of entertainment videos or something, I guess that's fair but I just disagree about the standards we should expect of educational materials even the most basic or entertaining kind. I'm also not pissing on this stuff totally either, I mentioned a lot of it that I liked.

Whether they've 'made things better or not', its pretty hard to judge because its a completely new situation: Web 2.0 is less than a generation old, its only really since austerity that people have been driven online for educational or informative resources like they are now. Twitter didn't exist. But I do know that the onesidedness of how content is presented online tends to make it hard to stop misinformed or weak material from spreading, I think thats partly because formats like Youtube are insidious because they seem like they're more of a place for discourse and interaction than they actually are. And not everyone who puts interesting content up is doing it professionally or has time for corrections as they would if it were their job. 

Video Game Fan 2000

The Lindsay Ellis thing happening while having this discussion made realise how hard it is have 'accountability' when it means the quality and content of someones work, but alternatively how fucking simple it is have 'accountability' when it means destroying someone's professional life over an imagined slight. Seems inevitable when you have ad revenue/sponsorship/patreon model of funding media. 

thugler

Quote from: Video Game Fan 2000 on March 30, 2021, 07:50:45 PM
The Lindsay Ellis thing happening while having this discussion made realise how hard it is have 'accountability' when it means the quality and content of someones work, but alternatively how fucking simple it is have 'accountability' when it means destroying someone's professional life over an imagined slight.

Isn't this a total storm in a teacup thing? I mean on its face it's nonsense. I don't think it will destroy her career. Like the contrapoints cancelling didn't.

Quote from: Video Game Fan 2000 on March 30, 2021, 07:46:05 PM
I wrote "any standard whatsoever", I didn't mean it was of "no standard whatsoever"

And you only have to look at reddit, twitter, forums, etc see people talking about how cite these kind of videos in their papers, take exaggerated points at face value, describe them as life changing, etc.

I don't want to bicker about any of this though. If you think I'm asking too much of entertainment videos or something, I guess that's fair but I just disagree about the standards we should expect of educational materials even the most basic or entertaining kind. I'm also not pissing on this stuff totally either, I mentioned a lot of it that I liked.

Whether they've 'made things better or not', its pretty hard to judge because its a completely new situation: Web 2.0 is less than a generation old, its only really since austerity that people have been driven online for educational or informative resources like they are now. Twitter didn't exist. But I do know that the onesidedness of how content is presented online tends to make it hard to stop misinformed or weak material from spreading, I think thats partly because formats like Youtube are insidious because they seem like they're more of a place for discourse and interaction than they actually are. And not everyone who puts interesting content up is doing it professionally or has time for corrections as they would if it were their job. 

I did look at her reddit and i didn't really see this. And anyway i don't think you can blame them for internet fans being idiots. They're not 'educational materials' in my view, and I'd dispute they were presented as such, they're entertainment. Usually they are opinion/argument based, or analysis, and not simply presenting facts. There are flaws and mistakes but not always, there are plenty of examples of decent light videos getting people interested in a topic. Informative and entertaining. There's a lot of mainstream journalism that doesn't have close to the level of accuracy of these videos. It's not always misleading, unless you think any topic must be covered from every possible angle. As i mentioned before, her fans even accepted critiques of her stuff.

This stuff about 'life changing' and that sort of thing is probably trans kids seeing someone in the public eye who understands what they are going through rather than 'i now have a degree in philosophy because i watched someone's videos'.

Video Game Fan 2000

Quote from: thugler on March 30, 2021, 08:08:04 PM
Isn't this a total storm in a teacup thing? I mean on its face it's nonsense. I don't think it will destroy her career. Like the contrapoints cancelling didn't.

Still a shit thing to go through. I wouldn't blame anyone for quitting if people were photoshopping tweets of their friends to fabricate racist statements.

Quote from: thugler on March 30, 2021, 08:08:04 PMI'd dispute they were presented as such

Yeah, I think we're going disagree forever on this. When you're giving your audience citations, offering reading lists, breaking down key issues, providing definitions, and presenting "lessons" - you're making educational materials no matter how many skits you do. I do think you're being a bit obtuse by not accepting that many people do receive these videos that way and treat them as seriously as they would any other kind of lesson, but I won't press the point (and beside, I don't want to single out any actual persons comment just to win an argument, that would be unfair and shite)

There's a reason that stuff like Mr Roger's Neighbourhood, Sesame Street, Cosmos, Life On Earth, Ways of Seeing, The Ascent of Man, etc. are glorified so much in broadcasting. And that's because they're bloody hard things do to right and very easy to do badly, whatever your subject matter or the audience you're going for. We're in the greatest ever change in how this sort of material is presented, its worth being critical about it and not throwing standards out of the window because at least its not Ben Shapiro.

thugler

Really they're in-between educational and entertainment if I'm being fair. I still feel there will be no level of accuracy below the level of academia that would satisfy you though. While there are flaws and inaccuracies, much of it is fine and valuable to some level as both entertainment and in an educational/informative sense. I'm all in favor of being critical of it, and as I said the left sphere of YouTube is literally doing critiques of other left YouTubers at the moment, and it's largely been accepted, that's a healthy thing surely. While i think it's important not to suggest that this stuff can take the place of higher education, i think it's wrong to suggest it can't help inspire people to learn anything further. I think anyone who has been through higher education in the humanities would now say there were inaccuracies and big flaws in some of the stuff they were taught and all. Do you work in academia perchance?

Video Game Fan 2000

#185
Its not really about accuracy. There's plenty of stuff on Youtube that is light or entertaining that I think is good. Some of Contrapoints videos are good. Sixty Symbols is good. Kurzgesagt is a bit lib but its still good. Potholer is a tory but he was very good. Shaun and Bomberguy have both had their moments. Cck Philosophy has had some decent ones. PT happens to have a lot of traits and general low or superficial standard of content coupled with status flaunting and pomp that I think is a terrible fit for particularly the earth shatteringly huge issues she chooses to make videos on. There is an ill fit between dazzling your audience, promoting yourself and then presenting very delicate or contentious issues.

I think CP did so well because it looks like its meant to dazzle and impress, but the humour is mostly self-depreciating and gave the videos a surprise value that helps bring difficult topics to a wide audience. Its similar to what makes Sixty Symbols good, to me, is that it presents scientists and specialists in an informal setting so there is no way anyone could mistake what they're seeing for an actual lesson but without having a sense that they're gatekeeping or vulgarizing hard science for dumb-dumb normies. You're getting the real McCoy, but an informal or bite-sized version of it. I wish there was more political/humanities style content along those lines rather than choosing between either actual 90 min long lectures someone's uploaded or amateur made video essays: there is some stuff like that out there but not enough, imho.

Quote from: thugler on March 30, 2021, 08:37:41 PM
I think anyone who has been through higher education in the humanities would now say there were inaccuracies and big flaws in some of the stuff they were taught and all. Do you work in academia perchance?

Nope, I'm at the tail end of a research project. So not working, just around it a lot. Maybe if I'm doing something else this time next year experience will have changed my mind on a lot of things.

I do agree with what you're saying here, but I don't think the solution is to make things even more onesided than they are already. If anything, I think what drives the popularity of 'theory' media online is partly students feeling like they're not getting enough of what they want in higher ed and seeking out more. Right now the big buzz word is "interdisciplinary", which is great in theory, but it doesn't work out when there are huge budget and time constraints and a lot of stuff is blown through really quickly. I think a really common complaint now wouldn't necessarily be the accuracy of what's being taught, but a certain subject that someone thinks is super important being blown past without the attention they'd like to see it given.

This is way off topic though, but its nice to talk about all the same (not to mention therapeutic)

AllisonSays

I think the main flaw in your position, Video Game Fan, is that the vast majority of writing, teaching and talking done in professional university settings is profoundly bad in various ways. It might fulfill your criterion of citational accuracy, having generally passed through a set of processes to ensure it does, but that doesn't make it compelling, useful, beautiful or true.

I should add that all I watch on YouTube is a podcast about footballers so I have nothing to say about all these people who make the videos. I'm sure it's also mostly bad.

Video Game Fan 2000

Quote from: AllisonSays on March 30, 2021, 09:10:48 PM
I think the main flaw in your position, Video Game Fan, is that the vast majority of writing, teaching and talking done in professional university settings is profoundly bad in various ways. It might fulfill your criterion of citational accuracy, having generally passed through a set of processes to ensure it does, but that doesn't make it compelling, useful, beautiful or true.

Ouch. I couldn't disagree more. People work really hard to be engaging despite incredibly tight squeezes on human resources and funding! You can't just whack out an essay and call it a done job anymore.


AllisonSays

I work at a university and I don't agree. Although to be clear I'm talking about teachers and researchers in my post above, not students!

But, like, I don't want to sound like that motherfucker Justin Murphy. There are of course many, many good people in universities, working hard to do interesting work, and to translate that work to people in interesting ways. I'm just saying there are various formidable structural disincentives to doing that.

Video Game Fan 2000

But people who are doing the teaching and research are often the students. I get what you're saying about disincentives (I have a ton of my own complaints about what has become orthodox over past decades) but I would rather even the stodgiest public funded setting to just letting the 'marketplace of ideas' have at it. If all public resources from libraries and theaters up to post-doc placements weren't absolutely gutted by fifteen years of vindictive financial policy, it would be a very different conversation.

thugler

Quote from: Video Game Fan 2000 on March 30, 2021, 08:56:08 PM
PT happens to have a lot of traits and general low or superficial standard of content coupled with status flaunting and pomp that I think is a terrible fit for particularly the earth shatteringly huge issues she chooses to make videos on. There is an ill fit between dazzling your audience, promoting yourself and then presenting very delicate or contentious issues.

Yet she is a an example of one of the left tubers with some academic credentials (a masters) on the subject. I would agree some of her stuff is superficial or poorly argued, often when she's talking about politics/policy more often than Philosophy but I'm not too knowledgeable on that myself so that's probably why. As for the pomp and fancy stuff, she is an actor and that's obviously going to effect how she chooses to present things quite a bit. You also have to factor in that this is one of the reasons why she is so popular. Getting people interested in Philosophy topics they wouldn't usually give a second thought to probably requires this presentation for some. It's a shame her work is not always great content wise.


bgmnts

To be honest I'm currently doing a basic module of a degree and I'll be honest it would just be great if someone can comprehend and evaluate the conclusions and arguments and explain that to me in an accessible and engaging way, I dont see why thats a bad thing or any less valuable.

biniput

Tedious that a thread supposedly about really nasty or shitty people on youtube becomes a gripe on style by fairly decent people. If video game fan 2000 and MoreauVasz were so great at comprehending subjects as they claim others are not then can they tell me why they did not comprehend the thread title and start one of their own. This could have been called "pointlessly wanking on about imaginary problems of certain youtubers" then we could read such dubious and tediously subjective crap and kept this from being derailed.

Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse

Quote from: biniput on March 31, 2021, 03:07:12 PM
Tedious that a thread supposedly about really nasty or shitty people on youtube becomes a gripe on style by fairly decent people. If video game fan 2000 and MoreauVasz were so great at comprehending subjects as they claim others are not then can they tell me why they did not comprehend the thread title and start one of their own. This could have been called "pointlessly wanking on about imaginary problems of certain youtubers" then we could read such dubious and tediously subjective crap and kept this from being derailed.
Just imagine soothing white noise as your eyes glaze over and you scroll past the tedious wank to the next post.

The Ombudsman

What's the consensus here regarding folks like Bryan Callen and Chris D'Ella? Accused of stuff, laying low then returning to pick up where they left off.

I don't like Callen much and D'Ella's comedy is poor, but both have been entertaining during interviews/podcasts etc. I guess this might be more for a Cancelled thread, if there hasn't been one already.


Joe Oakes

Quote from: The Ombudsman on March 31, 2021, 03:56:11 PM
What's the consensus here regarding folks like Bryan Callen and Chris D'Ella? Accused of stuff, laying low then returning to pick up where they left off.

I don't like Callen much and D'Ella's comedy is poor, but both have been entertaining during interviews/podcasts etc. I guess this might be more for a Cancelled thread, if there hasn't been one already.

They are terrible.

Callen is now pretending that he got cancelled for being a conservative, rather than for rape. D'Elia is pretending that he got cancelled for cheating on his wife, rather than for being a paedophile. The only vaguely amusing thing either of them has ever done was D'Elia's Eminem impression, and the only reason they got popular was the Rogan bump. Rogan has a nasty habit of popularising idiots and scam artists. I can't wait for Jocko Willink to be exposed for sex tourism or something, it's coming.

The Ombudsman

Quote from: Joe Oakes on March 31, 2021, 04:36:59 PM
They are terrible.

Callen is now pretending that he got cancelled for being a conservative, rather than for rape. D'Elia is pretending that he got cancelled for cheating on his wife, rather than for being a paedophile. The only vaguely amusing thing either of them has ever done was D'Elia's Eminem impression, and the only reason they got popular was the Rogan bump. Rogan has a nasty habit of popularising idiots and scam artists. I can't wait for Jocko Willink to be exposed for sex tourism or something, it's coming.

Who knows what he get's up to at 4 in the morning eh?

As I say, found each produce amusing bits every now and again but neither are Dave Chapelle territory. Joe Rogan's comedy is poor and I agree he does give a boost to anyone on his show. I've found it interesting when he's had UK comedians on the show (now can only think of Izzard) as it's night and day between them. Yank humour tends to be much more blokey bants whereas (although not absent here), I find 'our' comedians have a different sort of nature/personality that I find much more appealing. Cultural differences no doubt.

Dave Chapelle stands out for me, was lucky to see him last Feb in London. He seems to enjoy the craft and deliver rather than talk about writing 'bits' and blowing his own trumpet discussing his creative process. Whenever I hear someone talk about how they hone their craft, I generally find them terrible. And for terrible, look at Brendan Schaub. I believe a damp Quaver could do better.

thugler

Quote from: The Ombudsman on March 31, 2021, 05:00:10 PM
Who knows what he get's up to at 4 in the morning eh?

As I say, found each produce amusing bits every now and again but neither are Dave Chapelle territory. Joe Rogan's comedy is poor and I agree he does give a boost to anyone on his show. I've found it interesting when he's had UK comedians on the show (now can only think of Izzard) as it's night and day between them. Yank humour tends to be much more blokey bants whereas (although not absent here), I find 'our' comedians have a different sort of nature/personality that I find much more appealing. Cultural differences no doubt.

Dave Chapelle stands out for me, was lucky to see him last Feb in London. He seems to enjoy the craft and deliver rather than talk about writing 'bits' and blowing his own trumpet discussing his creative process. Whenever I hear someone talk about how they hone their craft, I generally find them terrible. And for terrible, look at Brendan Schaub. I believe a damp Quaver could do better.

Yeah the US comics, or at least the ones that are in Rogan's orbit are often very caveman ish and hacky. I mean there are probably some UK comics like that too but they don't get the traction and fame as the US ones do. Agree on Chapelle too, he's still very good, but even he can drop some hacky reactionary material now and then that is really beneath him. He's so relaxed now and seems in no rush to get to the laughs, very enjoyable.

dredd

 Thought I knew that Brian chap from somewhere: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azq0S0DKS50
  Someone in a whatsapp group for my work posted up this Robert Kiyosaki interview last year, we got told to watch it. Have a strong suspicion now that it might be bollocks.
So, MotivationHub and it's ilk - inspiring and relevant life advice, or wretched shit for cunts?

The Ombudsman

Quote from: dredd on April 01, 2021, 09:28:48 PM
Thought I knew that Brian chap from somewhere: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azq0S0DKS50
  Someone in a whatsapp group for my work posted up this Robert Kiyosaki interview last year, we got told to watch it. Have a strong suspicion now that it might be bollocks.
So, MotivationHub and it's ilk - inspiring and relevant life advice, or wretched shit for cunts?

It's all bollocks isn't it. The only people benefiting are the people selling the courses.

Video Game Fan 2000

Kiyosaki markets directly to the far right. He was an Alex Jones favourite. 

Dusty Substance


To those who've not seen it, I recommend RalphTheMovieMaker's video assessment of Nostalgia Critic's "quiz show" and "films".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhWh_FRxJOc

It's almost impressive how much Doug Walker fucked up over the years. He truly comes across as a nasty bit of work when he hosted the quiz show and the films are jaw droppingly awful - To Boldly Flee is 3h29m long, with 95% of it shot in his house.


St_Eddie

Yeah, RalphTheMovieMaker is grand and indeed Doug Walker is shit.

Dr Rock

Agreed.

Jenny Nicholson is a funny reviewer of various stuff (often Star Wars or amusement parks or toy spiders), anyone a fan?

lazarou

Quote from: Dr Rock on April 11, 2021, 04:42:33 AM
Agreed.

Jenny Nicholson is a funny reviewer of various stuff (often Star Wars or amusement parks or toy spiders), anyone a fan?

Probably my favourite of the whole bunch, she seems unusually self-aware for that kind of youtube person and I really enjoy her more easy-going, naturally funny style. The episode she did on the last bronycon in particular is fantastic and put that fandom into perspective in a way I hadn't seen before.

idunnosomename

It doesnt fit but regardless i keep reading the title to Springtime For Hitler and Germany

Fambo Number Mive

Quote from: lazarou on April 11, 2021, 07:30:22 AM
Probably my favourite of the whole bunch, she seems unusually self-aware for that kind of youtube person and I really enjoy her more easy-going, naturally funny style. The episode she did on the last bronycon in particular is fantastic and put that fandom into perspective in a way I hadn't seen before.

Agreed, she's done some great videos, would strongly recommend her Youtube channel.

Retinend

agreed - she is one of my favorites too. Her negative review of Joker is right on the money.

lazarou

Speaking of Doug Walker, a fairly savage breakdown of his inexplicable musical parody of The Wall just arrived courtesy of Dan Olson/Folding Ideas: https://youtu.be/rokAtlFGa7Y

Probably safe to skip the first section there and just jump to the second chapter if you're already familiar with The Wall. Dan himself was briefly part of the whole Channel Awesome thing but there seems to be no love lost there as this gets pretty vicious pretty quickly.