Bands with different pay for members

[thecuriousorange]

This can understandably be a source of tension. In The Smiths, the drumner Mike Joyce and bassist Andy Rourke were paid a great deal less than Morrissey and Marr, which is fair enough really. I think U2 split everything four ways. If an outfit does that there can't not be winners and losers, surely. It would have been totally unfair for The Smiths (and other groups with differing talent/contribution levels) to do that. We normally don't find out the details of such fiscal arrangements until things get ugly/litigious among camp members.

What are some notable ones you're aware of?

[Oz Oz Alice]

I actually think Andy Rourke got a raw deal in The Smiths: his bass playing was fantastic, intuitive and inventive. He should have at least got a co-writing credit or some recognition on Barbarism Begins At Home which is really all about the bassline; same for Well I Wonder. In my own band we've always split everything equally as from my point of view unless I'm telling you which notes to play, where and how to play them you're contributing something valuable to the skeleton I brought in.

[Neomod]

Didn't Altered Images at some point have the socialist idea of splitting everything evenly including with the road crew.

Possibly[nb]I'm sure I heard Clare[nb]swoon[/nb] mention this in a recent interview[/nb]

[Rizla]

It's not a question of them being paid less, it's whether the publishing, ie credit for songwriting, where a large amount of income is generated, is shared equally. U2, REM, and various other bands supposedly split this four ways, regardless of who actually writes the songs, to promote group unity. The truth is usually a bit more complicated, with caveats relating to how long the band members stay band members, for example.

Sting gets portrayed as a cunt for his mercenary approach to his publishing, so that when P Diddy sampled "Every Breath You Take", the tantric wanker got all the dosh, even though it was only Andy Summer's guitar bit (which he came up with) that was used. I think he eventually bunged Andy a few begrudging quid.

I doubt there's any band where the singer or whoever is getting more in terms of gig fees than the rest of the band. You'd be able to take that up with the MU. Most bands operate as limited companies so this stuff all gets sorted early on. It's different if they are session musicians. Rick Wright was at one point fired from Pink Floyd as a member, then re-hired as a session hand for tours.

[gilbertharding]

Didn't Ritchie quit the Ramones because he wasn't getting his share of the T Shirt loot?

[Rich Uncle Skeleton]

Rick Wright was at one point fired from Pink Floyd as a member, then re-hired as a session hand for tours.

Yeah when he was playing as a session guy for them Wright was the only one of the four to make any money doing The Wall live in 1980-81, swings and roundabouts

[The Mollusk]

I actually think Andy Rourke got a raw deal in The Smiths: his bass playing was fantastic, intuitive and inventive. He should have at least got a co-writing credit or some recognition on Barbarism Begins At Home which is really all about the bassline; same for Well I Wonder. In my own band we've always split everything equally as from my point of view unless I'm telling you which notes to play, where and how to play them you're contributing something valuable to the skeleton I brought in.

Totally agree, and also want to add that "There is a Light" verses are also massively bolstered by the bass hook. Rourke's bass is fucking gorgeous in a great deal of their music, to be honest.

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

It's not a question of them being paid less, it's whether the publishing, ie credit for songwriting, where a large amount of income is generated, is shared equally.

I think I remember Brant Bjork saying that Josh Homme learned about this while in Kyuss and subsequently insisted on being the sole songwriter. This was a source of contention between them in the years since the band split.

[The Mollusk]

Does not surprise me that Homme would be the type of bellend to do that.

[imitationleather]

I remember Pulp split everything equally, with Jarvis saying it was very important for no one to be earning more.

[Jockice]

I remember Pulp split everything equally, with Jarvis saying it was very important for no one to be earning more.

Didn't The Fall do that as well? Unlikely as it may seem given the large turnover of members.

[Oz Oz Alice]

Mark E Smith's approach to songwriting credits was notoriously bizarre: sometimes members wouldn't be credited for something they'd written, sometimes they'd get credit for something they didn't and sometimes this'd be the case long after they'd left the band. Martin Bramah once told me about receiving royalties for something he had nothing to do with six years after he'd left the band for the second time.

[sevendaughters]

I believe U2 split everything non-royalty 5 ways - Paul McGuinness gets a cut too.

[markburgle]

Sting gets portrayed as a cunt for his mercenary approach to his publishing, so that when P Diddy sampled "Every Breath You Take", the tantric wanker got all the dosh, even though it was only Andy Summer's guitar bit that was used

Not true, P Diddy's chorus melody is Sting's verse melody. Still a cunt for taking the lot though

[Brundle-Fly]

The deal in the seven-strong lineup of Madness is that whoever has written the song gets a larger percentage of the publishing royalties and the rest is split between each of the other members. Can't remember what that percentage is though. . Sensibly, they bought the rights to all their songs from Stiff Records when they left the label in 1984. They formed their own label, Zarjazz Records, opened an office/ rehearsal room and Liquidator studio in Caledonian Road, London. They lost a fortune on that particular venture. I believe Paul Weller made a similar folly with his Respond label a couple of years earlier.

[Oz Oz Alice]

Where it gets particularly tricky is when we start looking at session musicians contributions. For me, Herbie Flowers absolutely deserves more than a session fee for Walk On The Wild Side: the bassline is the first thing you think of. Similarly Hal Blaine deserved some kind of recognition for the drum beat that launched a million lovesick hearts on Be My Baby. Although I don't necessarily like it, I can see the point that they're essentially acting as a contractor and their work is owned by the person who hires them. Surely if you feel enough companionship with people to have started a band with them its only right that you're all on the same level. Surely the reason you're playing with them is because they're doing things you're not capable of: unless its some kind of Prince / Trent Reznor situation and they're simply people you have facilitate you playing live. The Madness deal Brundle mentioned is the fairest way I think

[The Culture Bunker]

Pete de Freitas, when he rejoined Echo and the Bunnymen following his ill-judged bender in the States, was on "wages" as a hired hand rather than a full band member around the time of that self-titled album.

I think with the Smiths, the argument was that Morrissey and Marr were the "band", with Joyce and Rourke paid employees, hence the contentious income split - even the lads in Oasis got their fair share of the (non-songwriting related) millions.

Once the Cure started getting really big, Robert Smith brought in equal splits of songwriting - his thought was that it'd mean the best songs got recorded, with none of the "we have to do one of mine so I get some publishing" arguments getting in the way.

[sevendaughters]

my favourite one of recent vintage was The Hives: a quintet with a six-way split, with 1/6th going to their enigmatic svengali Randy Fitzsimmons. The band claimed to be doing his bidding as mere puppets to the industry.

Turned out when some nerd looked up the publishing info, Fitzsimmons was a name used by the guitarist Nicholaus Arson, so he gets 1/3rd and the rest get 1/6th.

[Pranet]

Didn't The Fall do that as well? Unlikely as it may seem given the large turnover of members.

There are loads of Fall songs just credited to Smith, which makes one go hmm. I recall reading in one of the many Fall books, I think the one by Paul Hanley about Hex, that Smith was very happy when he realised that by crediting the songs as Lyrics:Smith Music: Whoever he would be getting at least half the money for each song.

[Pranet]

IIRC correctly most Belle and Sebastian songs were split equally between the band members and also their manager, which especially in the early days, considering how many more songs Stuart Murdoch wrote than the rest of them and also that this for some records is an eight way split is pretty generous of him.

[markburgle]

The whole thing of songwriting vs arranging is fascinating to me. Legally, songwriting is just chords, melody ("top line") and words. The first two together count for half, the latter counts for half. If you write a bassline or nice ornate guitar part you're "arranging" and not entitled to publishing.

This is just a highly primitive failed attempt to impose some kind of scientific/legal formula onto something which, by its nature, resists and disproves it all the time. Andy Rourke's basslines being a great case in point. And in fact, Johnny Marr isn't technically getting paid for most of those great guitar lines either, only for the chords that underlie them. Joy Division songs are often nothing but arrangement. Try and play Disorder on an acoustic guitar, for example.

It's such bollocks in so many cases. Tom Verlaine snaffled nearly all of Television's publishing. I always think "fine, if you're really the sole composer of those songs lets strip the other 3 lads off Marquee Moon and see how many people are prepared to listen to your incredibly primitive 3-chord songs now". But legally, an asshole like Verlaine can do that, and the other guys in the band have no recourse. Ian Curtis was apparently already grumbling to his wife about Joy Division's even 4-way split - as writer of the words and top-line he could've put his foot down and had 75% for himself if he'd wanted. It's only due to some people having some sort of bigger-picture mentality/fairness to them that anyone ever goes the other way.

That bigger picture is that in most cases a band's songs only ever acquire financial value thanks to the collective effort of everyone involved, even if that only means playing the drums along to them on endless tours as you build an audience willing to pay to hear them. I think that's deserving of some stake, even if it's only 5-10%.

[buzby]

Didn't Altered Images at some point have the socialist idea of splitting everything evenly including with the road crew.

Possibly[nb]I'm sure I heard Clare[nb]swoon[/nb] mention this in a recent interview[/nb]

I posted about the Altered Images situation here. Basically legal issues meant that nobody got anything much. When it was resolved in 2016, Clare [nb]swoon[/nb] said she got £12k out of it, after being on £75 a week during her time in the band.

That post also covers the Joy Division/New Order situation, which was an equal split between each member and Rob Gretton getting a smaller share (though again they didn't see much of it as it was being used to bail out Factory and the Hacienda). The split changed from Republic onwards, where Sumner demanded a bigger share as he was doing most of the writing and he didn't want any of his money being wasted trying to keep a sinking ship afloat. In the second volume of Morris' autobiography, he mentions that he and Gillian were forced to take a pay cut on Get Ready after she was elbowed out for wanting to stay at home to look after their seriously ill daughter.

[DrGreggles]

Sting gets portrayed as a cunt for his mercenary approach to his publishing, so that when P Diddy sampled "Every Breath You Take", the tantric wanker got all the dosh, even though it was only Andy Summer's guitar bit (which he came up with) that was used. I think he eventually bunged Andy a few begrudging quid.

And he got 50% of the songwriting credit on 'Money For Nothing' for the "I want my MTV" line during the intro.

[Rizla]

Not true, P Diddy's chorus melody is Sting's verse melody. Still a cunt for taking the lot though

Did I say they sampled Sting's voice? DID I?

The point was that Andy got sod all from the Diddy track, despite the fact that the only bit of the recording of EBYT that was sampled was his guitar bit, for which he received no songwriting credit to begin with*.

Simple Minds' big hit was written by Keith Forsey (a one-time member of Amon Duul II), but Jim Kerr, being no fool, claimed half of the topline part of the publishing for adding the words "Heh heh heh heh, ooowargh oooh". And I believe Gene Roddenberry wrote lyrics for the Star Trek theme that were never intended to be heard, so he could geg in on the publishing.

*I don't actually know if they sampled the track or just recorded a soundalike guitar bit and I can't be fucked even googling it, but my point still stands.

[non capisco]

And I believe Gene Roddenberry wrote lyrics for the Star Trek theme that were never intended to be heard, so he could geg in on the publishing.

Star Treeeeeeek, la la la la la
Oh, Star Treeeeeeek, la la la la la
Star Treeek, Star Trek, S-s-s-s-star treeeek
Oh, Star Trek, it's coming on nowwwwwwww!

Yes, yes, that'll do.

[Rizla]

Star Treeeeeeek, la la la la la
Oh, Star Treeeeeeek, la la la la la
Star Treeek, Star Trek, S-s-s-s-star treeeek
Oh, Star Trek, it's coming on nowwwwwwww!

Yes, yes, that'll do.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/unthemely-behavior/

Beyond
The rim of the star-light
My love
Is wand'ring in star-flight
I know
He'll find in star-clustered reaches
Love,
Strange love a star woman teaches.
I know
His journey ends never
His star trek
Will go on forever.
But tell him
While he wanders his starry sea
Remember, remember me.

It reads like a thinly-veiled paen to arse-play if you ask me.

[purlieu]

The songwriting vs. arranging thing has always bugged me. If you play the guitar solo from Bohemian Rhapsody, for instance, Freddie Mercury's estate will get the publishing royalty, despite the fact that Brian May clearly came up with it.

Whenever I see a credits list and all band members are credited equally it makes me like the band more. Yes, the bulk of the song might be the main melody and chords, but there's a very good reason bands have bass and drums, and thus I think they should be rewarded as such. The song itself might not rely on them, but the version of the song that the songwriters are hoping to release does, so let's just share the money out equally eh?

[mrClaypole]

The deal in the seven-strong lineup of Madness is that whoever has written the song gets a larger percentage of the publishing royalties and the rest is split between each of the other members. Can't remember what that percentage is though. . Sensibly, they bought the rights to all their songs from Stiff Records when they left the label in 1984. They formed their own label, Zarjazz Records, opened an office/ rehearsal room and Liquidator studio in Caledonian Road, London. They lost a fortune on that particular venture. I believe Paul Weller made a similar folly with his Respond label a couple of years earlier.

Suggs has said in interviews that the songwriters get 50% and the rest of the band get the other 50%. He said without the other members the songs wouldn't sound like Madness.
No wonder Mike Barson was able to chuck it all in and live out the rest of the 80s on a barge in Amsterdam as he wrote most of the early (biggest) hits.

[Rich Uncle Skeleton]

Where it gets particularly tricky is when we start looking at session musicians contributions. For me, Herbie Flowers absolutely deserves more than a session fee for Walk On The Wild Side: the bassline is the first thing you think of.

at least he had the good thinking to record both a double bass and an electric fretless on that track in order to get double the fee!

but yeah in an ideal world contributions like that would always have the writer saying "yeah that's actually a pretty crucial part of the track now, better credit you" this must happen here and there, can anyone chuck in an example or two??

I believe U2 split everything non-royalty 5 ways - Paul McGuinness gets a cut too.

He quit in 2013 but this was definitely true in the beginning and was renegotiated in the early 90s to keep a proper line between them since he and principle management had branched out beyond just U2. Not that he wasn't earning his original cut, basically teaching them the ins and outs of how to keep as much control over their music as possible, getting them an insanely good royalty rate and I think even a share in Island when The Joshua Tree blew up and Island couldn't pay them all their royalties.

[The Mollusk]

The songwriting vs. arranging thing has always bugged me. If you play the guitar solo from Bohemian Rhapsody, for instance, Freddie Mercury's estate will get the publishing royalty, despite the fact that Brian May clearly came up with it.

Whenever I see a credits list and all band members are credited equally it makes me like the band more. Yes, the bulk of the song might be the main melody and chords, but there's a very good reason bands have bass and drums, and thus I think they should be rewarded as such. The song itself might not rely on them, but the version of the song that the songwriters are hoping to release does, so let's just share the money out equally eh?

Yeah this logic seems extremely obvious to me too. Say for example if there's an unremarkable drum track on a song which goes on to become an enormous hit, whether it's remarkable or not those drums are going to become synonymous with everything else about the song because they'll be deeply embedded in the mind of the listener. So, they are an equally essential piece of the music and should be paid as such.